Is it safe to use a UPS on an S+?

[5 ACES]

I live in an area where frequent power problems occur. We either have brownouts or blackouts on a consistant basis and it's been a concern of mine for awhile, on how it could potentially harm my S+. I had a few APC Uninterruptible power supply (UPS) units around the house and decided to hook the S+ to it. It works great but it does something weird when it's on battery backup. I have one of those illuminated stickers on the front of the machine, the one that says this machine accepts $1 $5 etc. that light up when the machine is not being used. When you play the machine, the lights go off while the reels are spinning, then come back on after they stop. When I unplug the battery backup and the machine is running off the UPS battery, the sticker that lights up on the front of the machine never goes off. You can be playing the machine and the illuminated sticker just keeps going, never stopping when you hit the spin button, like it does when it's not on battery backup power. Does anyone know if this should be a concern or not and would you recommend an S+ being plugged into one of these UPS battery backup/surge protector units? Thanks!!

[stayouttadabunker]

I think you'll be okay but I would set a multimeter to AC voltage over 200 and
check the UPS's outlets to by themeselves without your slot plugged in to it.
Check the UPS strip plugged into an outlet, take some numbers down on a piece of paper,
then check it again unplugged into the wall and
see if they're all reading the same on your multimeter.
If the strips is a lot lower on the meter when uplugged from the wall,
I'd say the UPS's power battery is going bad.
How old is it and have you ever used the UPS as a power source outside in the cold?

[Thor777]

I think you'll be okay but I would set a multimeter to AC voltage over 200 and
check the UPS's outlets to by themeselves without your slot plugged in to it.
Check the UPS strip plugged into an outlet, take some numbers down on a piece of paper,
then check it again unplugged into the wall and
see if they're all reading the same on your multimeter.
If the strips is a lot lower on the meter when unplugged from the wall,
I'd say the UPS's power battery is going bad.
How old is it and have you ever used the UPS as a power source outside in the cold?

    Yea Bunker is right but you also want to look at what the UPS is rated for in AMPS...Most of them can handle a computer and monitor with no problem but might not be able to put out quite enough for a slot in full playing mode with 3 or more reel stepper motors going along with draw from the bill validator, all the pretty lights (a topper?) and maybe a monitor and coin mechanism?  (just a thought) 

[5 ACES]

I think you'll be okay but I would set a multimeter to AC voltage over 200 and
check the UPS's outlets to by themeselves without your slot plugged in to it.
Check the UPS strip plugged into an outlet, take some numbers down on a piece of paper,
then check it again unplugged into the wall and
see if they're all reading the same on your multimeter.
If the strips is a lot lower on the meter when uplugged from the wall,
I'd say the UPS's power battery is going bad.
How old is it and have you ever used the UPS as a power source outside in the cold?

The UPS battery, I just replaced ten days ago, so I know it's good. I had a load on it just to test it last week and it's holding well. Here is something else that may be causing it, as a similar incident happened with my printer, which I had plugged into this UPS. The UPS I currently have uses a Simulated Sine Wave. I have read that this can cause problems, though small, on some devices and I'm not wondering if the transformer that my illuminated sticker uses is being affected by this. I know you can buy a UPS that uses a Pure Sine Wave, but they are expensive. I'll do some metering on the UPS as you described and see what comes up. Thanks stayouttadabunker!!

Also, the UPS I have is a 1000VA and the slot machine is the only thing plugged into it. I did connect the UPS to my laptop and used the software to see how big the load was on the UPS from the slot machine. It says it's only using 10% and this is when the reels are spinning and even when the hopper was spitting out quarters.

[stayouttadabunker]

We had "sine wave" problems at work a couple of weeks ago...
The electricians installed some new wall sockets for a new printing room and
the printers/copier machines, even though brand new, were acting funny.
We called the power company and some guy that had some equipment that
checks HVAC voltages came in and checked everything,
he gave the electricians some instructions and pretty soon we were up and running.
I wish I would of stuck around to see what the instructions were...
I caught a glimpse of a "polarity" conversation but was too busy to engage in it.

[5 ACES]

Well, all of the readings are the same, plugged in the wall, the wall and the UPS. I guess S+ machines don't like UPS's or Simulated Sine Wave's for that matter! 

[westom]

Well, all of the readings are the same, plugged in the wall, the wall and the UPS. I guess S+ machines don't like UPS's or Simulated Sine Wave's for that matter!

Output of most UPSes in battery backup mode is some of the 'dirtiest' electricity that electronics will see.  But since all electronics contain significant filtering and surge protection, then that UPS should not cause problems.  A UPS output is so 'dirty' as to be harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors.  The resulting 'noise' can interfere with other appliances. For example, it may create noise on longwave (AM) radios.   But appreciate the reality.  UPSes do not 'clean' electricity.  Are designed to power electronics because electronics are some of the most robust appliances.

[5 ACES]

Well, all of the readings are the same, plugged in the wall, the wall and the UPS. I guess S+ machines don't like UPS's or Simulated Sine Wave's for that matter!

Output of most UPSes in battery backup mode is some of the 'dirtiest' electricity that electronics will see.  But since all electronics contain significant filtering and surge protection, then that UPS should not cause problems.  A UPS output is so 'dirty' as to be harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors.  The resulting 'noise' can interfere with other appliances. For example, it may create noise on longwave (AM) radios.   But appreciate the reality.  UPSes do not 'clean' electricity.  Are designed to power electronics because electronics are some of the most robust appliances.

Welcome to NLG westom! I agree with you 100% and so does every electronic device I have plugged into a UPS! I notice that "Dirty" power just from the way my computer, printer and slot machine act. I just noticed this tonight. While on battery backup, all of the lights on my S+ seem to dim just a little bit and then go back to their normal brightness when the UPS is back on city power. It's got to be what your saying, because it's putting out the same voltage as our home outlets when on battery backup and the UPS itself is way under it's designed load level. It just seems to make me feel like it's damaging someting but in reality it's probably not. I guess it's better than having my machine go through spikes and drops from our city power and having it do this while were playing it.

[stayouttadabunker]

Put it this way...
drinking water from a filtered city kitchen faucet or
drinking water directly from a mountain stream with your cupped hands.

They're both water but taste way different!

[5 ACES]

Put it this way...
drinking water from a filtered city kitchen faucet or
drinking water directly from a mountain stream with your cupped hands.

They're both water but taste way different!

Well Put stayouttadabunker!! The mystery as to why this is happening has been solved and the credit goes to stayouttadabunker! My Dad, who of course is a licensed master electrician, wasn't home at the time of this problem, but I explained to him what was taking place. After he arrived, he checked the UPS with his $600 meter and it's only putting out 100 Volts when on battery power. All I had at the time was my $25 meter and of course, you guessed it, was reading 124 Volts, showing me just what I WANTED to see and not actually metering anything correctly. Both the UPS and my $25 meter are now ready for the trash! The battery in the UPS is showing good, so there must be something wrong with the UPS itself. Nonetheless, everybody who posted on this thread was correct in every way. The power is dirty, it's also WAY TOO LOW to be used for anything and all coming from a UPS that's doing a half ass job to begin with! Me and my S+ thank you all for your great advise on this matter! I'm going to go find another UPS that I have somewhere around here and see if it too want's to join it's brother and my $25 meter in the trash can! 

[brichter]

While on battery backup, all of the lights on my S+ seem to dim just a little bit and then go back to their normal brightness when the UPS is back on city power.

You may notice this even with a new UPS. That's because a simulated sine wave has slightly lower voltage peaks. Because the peak voltage is less but there's no time spent ramping from zero to low or high, the useful power (the area "under the curve") is the same. You perceive the effect of less peak voltage as the lights being slightly dimmer.

The reason they use a modified sine wave (or even worse, a square wave), is because it's so expensive to use digital electronics to create a true sine wave. Note that back in the day, electronics were much more susceptible to exhibiting bad behavior when powered by simulated sine wave power sources, because the filtering wasn't as good. You young kids have it good nowadays.  

<edit> the reason your $25 meter wasn't showing an issue is because it doesn't calculate True RMS voltage. You can buy meters that do, but they're more expensive.

Or, you can buy a DSO and see it for yourself, but that'll cost you thousands of $$.

[westom]

You may notice this even with a new UPS. That's because a simulated sine wave has slightly lower voltage peaks.

I'm looking at the output of this cheap UPS output on an oscilloscope.  120 volts is two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves.  Yes, this is also called a sine wave - modified or what every fancy adjective the sales promoters put to it.  A square wave is only a sum of sine waves.  Also why UPS outputs in battery backup mode can be harmful to some small motors.

  Reality.  'Cleanest' electricity is obvious - when the UPS is not in battery backup mode.  When the load is connected by that UPS directly to AC mains.

[5 ACES]

While on battery backup, all of the lights on my S+ seem to dim just a little bit and then go back to their normal brightness when the UPS is back on city power.

You may notice this even with a new UPS. That's because a simulated sine wave has slightly lower voltage peaks. Because the peak voltage is less but there's no time spent ramping from zero to low or high, the useful power (the area "under the curve") is the same. You perceive the effect of less peak voltage as the lights being slightly dimmer.

The reason they use a modified sine wave (or even worse, a square wave), is because it's so expensive to use digital electronics to create a true sine wave. Note that back in the day, electronics were much more susceptible to exhibiting bad behavior when powered by simulated sine wave power sources, because the filtering wasn't as good. You young kids have it good nowadays. 

<edit> the reason your $25 meter wasn't showing an issue is because it doesn't calculate True RMS voltage. You can buy meters that do, but they're more expensive.

Or, you can buy a DSO and see it for yourself, but that'll cost you thousands of $$.

Ok, you got me curious now! I have a UPS that without a doubt, is built much better than the one I plugged my S+ in, allbeit it's still a modified sine wave one. I metered it once again with my little $25 meter. On battery backup, it reads 120 Volts. Used my Dad's meter and it reads 120 Volts. Would it be safe to say that the UPS that reads 100 Volts is messed up somehow? Just asking before I chuck it in the trash.

[stayouttadabunker]

Maybe the store will take it back?

[westom]

Used my Dad's meter and it reads 120 Volts. Would it be safe to say that the UPS that reads 100 Volts is messed up somehow? Just asking before I chuck it in the trash. 

Appreciate (learn) how meters work.  Does his meter measure RMS?  RMS is a concept also learned in high school calculus.  Does the meter measure RMS or voltage of only the lower frequency components or voltage peaks?   Each may produce a same number OR different numbers depending on the AC voltage waveform.

  Meanwhile, that 200 volt square wave (output by a typicaly UPS when in battery backup mode) might also (accurately) measure 120 Volts on an RMS meter.

[5 ACES]

Used my Dad's meter and it reads 120 Volts. Would it be safe to say that the UPS that reads 100 Volts is messed up somehow? Just asking before I chuck it in the trash. 

Appreciate (learn) how meters work.  Does his meter measure RMS?  RMS is a concept also learned in high school calculus.  Does the meter measure RMS or voltage of only the lower frequency components or voltage peaks?   Each may produce a same number OR different numbers depending on the AC voltage waveform.

  Meanwhile, that 200 volt square wave (output by a typicaly UPS when in battery backup mode) might also (accurately) measure 120 Volts on an RMS meter.

No, his doesn't measure RMS. He did mention that the readings could be off, due to the nature of UPS's and his meter's ability to read it. We did try this though. We plugged a 100 Watt bulb into the UPS in question. Then plugged that same bulb into the other UPS. Sure enough, the UPS that we think is bad, had a much dimmer bulb compared to the other UPS. I even changed batteries in both UPS's and it's still doing the same thing. I'm convinced this UPS is malfunctioning somehow and I'm going to contact the manufacture about this problem and see what they say.

[brichter]

Is that UPS really outputting a square wave? A square wave spends no time at zero between the high and low portions of the wave, a simulated sine will spend a noticeable amount of time on the zero graticule of the scope.

Here's a good example:

[westom]

No, his doesn't measure RMS. He did mention that the readings could be off, due to the nature of UPS's and his meter's ability to read it.

Which is what my post also said technically.  Light bulb intensity would indicate an RMS voltage differences.  A "non-RMS" meter might measure both voltages equal when the light bulb also reports a voltage difference.  And neither is incorrect.  Both are reporting same things (when meter reports same number while light bulb shows different intensities).

[5 ACES]

Is that UPS really outputting a square wave? A square wave spends no time at zero between the high and low portions of the wave, a simulated sine will spend a noticeable amount of time on the zero graticule of the scope.

Here's a good example:

The Spec. sheet on both of my UPS's claim that it's using a Simulated Sine Wave.

[westom]

Is that UPS really outputting a square wave? A square wave spends no time at zero between the high and low portions of the wave, ...

 Your square wave (as pictured) is only sums of sine waves. A square wave is also a simulated or modified square wave.   

[5 ACES]

No, his doesn't measure RMS. He did mention that the readings could be off, due to the nature of UPS's and his meter's ability to read it.

Which is what my post also said technically.  Light bulb intensity would indicate an RMS voltage differences.  A "non-RMS" meter might measure both voltages equal when the light bulb also reports a voltage difference.  And neither is incorrect.  Both are reporting same things (when meter reports same number while light bulb shows different intensities).

Damn $1.00 light bulb told a better story about this UPS than the $600 meter!! 

[stayouttadabunker]

LOL...yup!

[brichter]

Is that UPS really outputting a square wave? A square wave spends no time at zero between the high and low portions of the wave, ...

 Your square wave (as pictured) is only sums of sine waves. A square wave is also a simulated or modified square wave.    

A modified square wave doesn't meet the definition of a square wave (sorry, I tend to get technical, one of the downfalls of being an engineer  ). A square wave is defined as a non-sinusoidal waveform that alternates regularly and instantaneously between 2 states (levels). A modified square wave has a measurable time spent at a level which is at the midpoint of the high and low states, so it has 3 states, not 2.  

<edit> Normally, I wouldn't use the terms level and state interchangeably, but as applied to this discussion they are.

[jdkmunch]

I hope my $250,000 APC ups at work doesn't throw out dirty power.  

[brichter]

I hope my $250,000 APC ups at work doesn't throw out dirty power.  

It probably doesn't. We have several in some of the buildings at work that don't. Then there are some buildings that do have modified sine UPSes, but those are only used as bridge power until the big diesel generators in the parking lots kick in. Once every 6 months they service the power systems, and they're not allowed any down time unlesss there is a failure. Downtime is considered to be if a single electrical item in the building shuts off.

Pretty funny back in the early 2000s when we were having rolling blackouts, nobody wanted to be in a building that had a generator because they didn't have an excuse to go home.