809 hopper step up coil/step up arm not advancing 100 tooth gear

[TheOtherBob]

Hello again!

As I progress further into this 809 the hopper makes a lot of chatter when I pull the lever.  Any payout causes the hopper to run away into the sunset as the 809 goes dark.  I can see the step up arm moving quite fast during a pull which would explain the chatter.

I pulled the hopper and I noticed the step up coil can't advance the 100 tooth gear.  It is hitting the coil stop before the step up arm can advance the gear 1 tooth.  (red arrow)  The step up arm switch that is normally hooked up to the step up arm never goes open.  (Please note I removed that switch so I could see the linkage easier.)

If I remove the coil stop I can easily advance the gear and the step up arm switch opens and closes.  (note the screws I removed on the coil stop)

The em troubleshooting guide mentions bending the tab above the coil but the step up arm doesn't even come close to hitting that.  The yellow arrow points to where the step up arm makes contact with the gear.  Is that adjustable there with some pliers?  I'm not sure bending it would help there but I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks again!

[David B Fowler]

What I can see quickly along with the info you provided, the coil sleeve seems to be replaced and a bit longer than normal and the plunger pin probably hits it keeping it from making a full pull. That is what I see from this point. I looked at mine and it has a metal sleeve that just clears the holding ring. If you have one shorter try it in there. Otherwise if you choose to cut your down I would use care because they tend to become brittle due to heat. You can possibly sand it down and clean it up so the plunger moves freely. A single edge razor blade might split it or slice your finger while you hold it. A dremel tool would be ideal for cutting it down to size.
BTW .... great picture, really shows the issue well.
The Fatman

[TheOtherBob]

What I can see quickly along with the info you provided, the coil sleeve seems to be replaced and a bit longer than normal and the plunger pin probably hits it keeping it from making a full pull. That is what I see from this point. I looked at mine and it has a metal sleeve that just clears the holding ring. If you have one shorter try it in there. Otherwise if you choose to cut your down I would use care because they tend to become brittle due to heat. You can possibly sand it down and clean it up so the plunger moves freely. A single edge razor blade might split it or slice your finger while you hold it. A dremel tool would be ideal for cutting it down to size.
BTW .... great picture, really shows the issue well.
The Fatman

Good catch on that coil sleeve, thanks!  I don't have the manual handy at this moment but I seem to recall the part number on that coil is different than the manual.  Also that coil sleeve is part of the coil itself as it isn't like any coil sleeve I've ever seen.  (Keep in mind my coils and sleeves experience is from pinball machines.)

Here's the problem with our theory... even though part of the sleeve is protruding out the top it isn't impeding the step up arm.  There's plenty of clearance there to still advance the gear (even more than one click).  The coil plunger is bottoming out on the coil stop below before the gear can advance.  I tried swapping the coil stop with the reset coil stop (lower right coil) but that didn't help any.  I suppose I could look in the machine for other coil stops and try swapping them in to see if it gives the plunger more play.

I also thought of grinding the coil stop down a bit but I was hesitant about getting creative until I've made sure I haven't overlooked anything!  

Take care!

[David B Fowler]

OK ... well if the plunger is hitting the stop before it advances the gear, possibly doing what you suggested seems to be the easiest way to go. That stop is easy to replace it is creates a problem after grinding it down, (easier ans safer than grinding the plunger down). BTW ... I operated pinballs for over 30 years and thats where I got my EM feet wet too.
OldReno might have an easy adjustment to the linkage assembly but I havnt timkerd with that as a possibility yet. I am sure that he has seen this before and has a fix to it.
The Fatman

[OldReno]

Do not bend that area the yellow arrow points to.  Those are hardened pieces, and I guarantee you will break them. Guaranteed!
Try just for giggles, swapping the plunger itself, with the one on the reset solenoid. Or at least see if they are the same size or not.
I'm thinking someone may have rebuilt the unit, and put the wrong pieces in the wrong places.   Also, you might change out that barrel insert with the reset solenoid insert...???  It should come out of the coil if you whack the top with a piece of wood.
Interesting problem.
Also, when you push the reset solenoid, does the spiral cam (100 tooth gear assy) become freed up to move, or is it stuck? Does it latch out?
Good photo btw.

[TheOtherBob]

Roger that on the bending...

The reset solenoid and the spiral cam seem to work good.  It's latches out and the spiral cam spins back to the zero stop.

With all of your tips (thanks guys!) I started pulling the coils to see if I could swap the plungers but the reset solenoid plunger is wayyyyy too short.  But here's the thing... take a look inside my b-25-925 coil.  That sleeve is melty like a grilled cheese sandwich.  Putting the meter on the coil I'm only reading .4 ohms.  I think I've got a bad coil!  It would also explain why the step up arm plunger wasn't getting a good throw because the plunger's guide ring was getting hung up in the melted part of the coil.  The resistor next to that coil looks good (reads about 50ohms) as the troubleshooting guide mentions that resistor can blow if the coil goes bad.  (Well at least that's what I gather if I understood it right!)

Time to take a break while a new coil is ordered... 

I'll get back at it next week! 

[David B Fowler]

That would keep it from making a full stroke. Be sure your not over fused for the 50V circuit so you dont burn it up after you put it in. Be ready to shut it off if it energizes and stays on when you plug it back in. We will address that issue if it happens at that time.... but I hope that fixes it.
 

The Fatman

[OldReno]

Here's a link on using jumpers to test your machine.  I wouldn't give this link to just anyone, you know...?
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=17558.0
You can check most any coil or light this way, quickly, without a meter, in circuit or out.  You can even check for continuity (a circuit, rather) through your plugs, and thus check your wiring with a couple of paperclips added.
We used to use an old machine transformer in the shop, and shoot coil plungers across the room.  Never hit anyone, fortunately, but did put some dents in the door.
With a good set of jumpers, and some practice, you can duplicate most any circuit in the Bally.
OtherBob, until your new coil gets here, put the old one back and check it with jumpers (after you ream out your insert to take care of the melty blob stuff.  Also, why not try that shorter plunger, just to see what happens?  The worst is probably that you'll get shortpays.  Might as well experiment until the mail arrives.

[TheOtherBob]

Thanks again guys!

Well I did experiment a bit.  I think I found out why the original coil went thermo-nuclear.  I never did try that shorter plunger though as it was working so nice but no matter what I did if that melted coil was in circuit the fuse was toast when it tried to payout.  I got creative and removed the odds coil as it was the same kind and ran with that until the new coil arrives.  So for the time being putting additional nickels in doesn't do much other than load up the hopper...

Everything was working pretty good other than some random over pay or short pay which I'll look at after I've researched the forum but it isn't often that it does that so I'm not worried yet.

My daughter was testing the machine for awhile and things were fine but then I noticed that when she pulled the lever as the reels spun I could hear the payout reset coil firing like a jack hammer.  I opened the machine and pulled the lever and sure enough I could SEE the reset coil firing like crazy.  Shut the machine off.  Pulled the hopper and pushed down on the step up coil and wound up burning my finger tip.  That coil was like 2 million degrees (+/- 1 million degrees).  I guess that explains what happened to the original coil there.

Took another closer look and I noticed Mr. Thomas Jefferson was saying there's no way I'm leaving the Jefferson party inside this hopper.  Will a jammed Thomas burn up that payout step up coil?

The em troubleshooting guide mentions checking the motor brake.  So I guess I'll start there but frankly I don't recall seeing anything that looks like a brake in the exploded view in the manual?

[OldReno]

You have a scavenger assembly and coil (the sharp thing to the right of your quarter) so I doubt you have a hopper motor brake.  The Brake was put in in place of the scavenger assembly as it was cheaper.
Now, which coil was burning up?  You must be very specific or we will be working on the wrong one.
You did download your bally parts manual, yes?
If it is the payout counter reset coil, that is controlled by only 2 switches, one is the zero stop switch on the hopper carriage and the other is the Reel mech B switch.  I would check your zero switch first, and make certain that when the payboard is fully reset, that the switch is open.
Good job so far....
+1.

[TheOtherBob]

The coil that got hot is the pay out step up coil.  Look at my first post in the thread and it's the coil with the red arrow pointing at it.  The coil in the lower right was the one that was chattering but only during a pull.  I'll double check the zero stop.  Thanks!   

[OldReno]

Cool, good to know.  Yes, the zero stop should fix that reset coil from chattering.  Make sure it opens well when it is in reset position (6:00).
Good pix BTW.

[TheOtherBob]

Yes, the zero stop should fix that reset coil from chattering.  Make sure it opens well when it is in reset position (6:00).

Ahhh. Re-reading your troubleshooting tips regarding the zero switch makes more sense now.  I completely missed your pulsing statement and figured it was more along a "pulses only once per pull" sort of thing if the switch is always closed.  That makes it more clear.  I do try and dig/search through posts before asking a question you or someone else has already excellently answered.  However I do appreciate your patience!! 

[OldReno]

It is encouraging that someone reads the troubleshooting tips.  Thanks.