New Life Games Tech Forums

Once upon a time I did a real bad thing and fried my cpu and i/o cards on my dotmation piggy bankin game. I have since repalced all the damaged hardware and now boot to a point, the reels position, I get the single bong, the display keys up with the piggy and everything, then it turns off the dotmation and I get a Hand (with no number) in the led displays. what setting to I need to clear to get rid of that error? I have used a clear chip when I put the new hardware together and can reach the menus just fine. It does this every time I boot.

I think Buzz had (or has) a Big Bang Pig machine, maybe he can provide some guidance? While WMS is not our most popular platform here, there are quite a few members who have 550s and BBs.

You might try moving this to the WMS forum for a better response, but  :238- none the less!

Are you sure the code is Hand? Could it be Rand?

Rand is bad static ram.......

Neonkiss and tollguy are really good at these WMS...it is a 40X correct?

Dale

Hand is a tilt code for the hopper.
It signifies a handpay. Did you hit a jackpot?
Turn the key on the side of the machine and it should clear.

positive it's Hand with an "H".  I did think the same think thing though. I get through the boot sequence though then get the tilt code.

No, it happened after I fried the system and replaced the I/o and CPU card while I was diagnosing a power supply issue.  One of the things I noticed last night is when in the menu I was unable to use the spin reel button to change at least some settings.

When you fried it?  Did you have burnt traces?  Did you replace your backplane too?

I did a dumb thing. I took the upper power supply board and tried to use it to diagnose a lower power issue. It burnt the I/O card so bad the Xlinx chip cracked wide open. I sent 12V down the 5V line. I did not change the backplane and I have not seen any errors indicating backplane issues, but if I  hear you guys right that's where my ram is right?

I do get through my post test with a bong and for a few seconds the game actually loads before it cuts off with the Hand tilt with no number of coins count like that error is supposed to show.

So what have you replaced?  Just the I/O card?  The ram is in the CPU board, if you put 12V down the 5V line, the CPU board would have been affected as well.  I would try and use a good known cpu board, the backplane is passive for the most part, but it does have an eeprom chip in it,  if you put 12 volts on a 5 volt line, you might have issues there too.  Your best bet is to replace the cpu board first to see if the error clears.

Replaced the CPU board and the I/O card. CPU card did not take visible damage but was just as fried.  Sound and Game chips seem to be survivors of the event. I think it only torched the front end bus on the cpu board. I have not touched the backplane yet. I also wonder I have the right reset chip, but it seems to sequence as expected with no direct tilts at the clear process.

If I could find some spare game chips to buy then I would, eeproms are notorious for long term bit rot and with what I put them through I would be a bit surprised if I did not at least shorten their lives. 

I had a guy I was getting my parts through sell me what he called piggy bankin chips (UX2 and 3) but were big bang chips, very cool since I want to accumulate the parts for conversion anyway. He actually argued with me telling me that was the only 40x piggy bank game and he stopped taliking to me at all. Shame since I wanted the big bang chips anyway. I bet he had vid and sound chips to match. He acted like I was trying to swindle him, but I was willing to buy every piece needed to convert and pay for a spare set of of the original piggy bankin. His loss but made it much harder since parts are seemingly scarce.

Anyway, my thought was at time I had corruption in the game chips, although it seems to pass the checksum and actually boot the game before I get the tilt.

I did replace the CPU card as well, brought the game and sound chips over from the old board. I am sure the sound chips are good, pretty sure the game chips are. Usually boards like this have voltage regulation around the main logic. I did get a used replacement power board (lower). About a week after I got the machine The upper one died, I called the board maker and got a new one. For some reason I could not get a good new match on the lower one so I bought it used. I am starting to hear a power supply hiss and I get the drift it's not always stable, but I do get periods of stable power but I can't get by that odd tilt code after the machine boots.

Can you post a picture of the new I/O board.
The 40X I/O and the 550 I/O look similar. I just wondering if he sold you a 550 I/O  :103-

Let's make sure you have the correct parts first.

Nice idea. I'll post that real soon. Thanks !

here are some pics of the I/O card that I was sold to replace the one I burnt

That's the right slot I/O, 5 sets of reel drivers on the top right of the board (connectors on top).

Thanks  for checking for me. I don't have a lot of slot experience behind me. I do have some electronics, a robotics and microcontroller background and I am a computer programmer by trade (BS in Computer Science).

Experimenting tonight I made careful note while I was stable going through the maint menu. all the sounds and tests seem to work, coin drop, all the sounds and music all work, reel tests, everything... But when I try to change a setting like speed (default med) I don't seem to be able to on pretty much every setting. I feel locked out in some manner.

the system only stays stable for few mintues. If am in the menu I start to get "brighter" than normal light flash patterns from the buttons, coin light, info lights etc. They feel like they are telling some kind of error, because normally they are static. If I am not in the menu it sounds like I go into incomplete boot resets in rapid succession. This feels like the power supply goes unstable but I am not sure, and wonder if the program chips are unstable and start generating program errors that force the system resets.

I just still know when I boot cold I get through the post and I see the game start (pig on screen and everything), then get the Hand Tilt. until the system goes unstable into reboot fits or if I'm in the menu system then I get the odd light flash patterns.

From all indications stated so far, I'm leaning towards a bad I/O board.
I have had bad boards where functions like the key switch on the side don't work and others where you get bright lights or the DBV runs all the time.
Remember the I/O board is for Information Out. This handles all electrical signals to lamps, coils, reel stepper motors, ect...

makes sense to me.... Now I have to find parts. an I/O card is on top of my list. I'd still like to start accumulating extra chips. Starting with the game and reset chips. EEProms are going to die. In fact I want to get the ability to make backups and master replacements. Right now I would just settle to be operational, I have been this way for more than a few years and have to hear the wife talk about the $2K paperweight in the living room.


Now the question is where is a good place to look for parts these days?

Raz410 has some slot I/O boards for a good price on his e-bay store.  I'd get at least a couple to have around, parts for these platforms are harder to get now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161097439084?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/161097439084?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)

Ok, this is where I am starting then. I picked one up. Even if it's not it then I have a spare. Now I wonder since the button interface seems to be on the backplane, if that might be my next target?

I wish I saw this before I did my bad thing. Although I did this years before this was posted.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=printpage;topic=344.0 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=printpage;topic=344.0)

I wonder if I have to replace tbe meter board to run ?

I am guessing the author of this did not lose his backplane then....

Interesting note: I noticed something here.... in the part number of the one I was sold, and the checking it against my burt one and the various manuals I have, there is a distinct difference.

the original part matches the number with one key difference. The end two digits are 03 on my original and 02 on the one I am trying to use. The one I just purchased will have the 03 like the original. Anyone think that might be an issue ?

Talk about a small world. Got the board, you would not believe it ! I ordered yesterday ! rick, looking at the return address on the box the Raz410 lives like less than 5 miles from me.  I think I am more stable and the board is like 100x better shape than my other replacement, but I still am in the same boat. I still boot with the "Hand" tilt.

Looking at the link with the story of the person who did the very same thing, I might have to fix or replace the hard meter driver board. Briefly looking at the board I think it only has two ic's on it and some normal components, caps, resistors, diodes, etc. It looks to be a simple enough board if I can ID the chips I can figure it out.

I think I have two choices, figure out the board and "satisfy" the boot test by simulating the signal it needs (forgoing using the meter set), or replace the IC's as the most likely of the fried components, after doing diagnostics on the board eliminating easy component issues.

Even with knowing that the meter board is the most likely issue, I think I have it down to three possible things my issue could be yet. 1. meter board (maybe the tilt is some sort of messed up message for the word "hard") 2. I have the wrong reset chip and it's not setting the ram up correctly 3. my game proms are shot.

In the second and third case I am going to seek a another reset chip and a game prom set. eeproms are going to die eventually anyhow and I'd like to double my chances of lasting longer anyway.

addendum : I have pulled the meter board. One ic is a simple 339 quad comparator, and the other is a TPIC6259N addressable latch. The 339 can easily take the 12V that is was exposed to the latch cannot (5.5v max). All other components on the board are easily rated for the overvolt amt the board must have seen, so I think I have my answer. The frustrating part is I have at least a number of 339's inches from my feet while I am typing this. The latches  I fear I do not. I hardly think I'll get as fast response on it as I did on the I/O card.  I wish I had a tech sheet for this board, I'd love to bench test it.


Although not as overt as one would think, I spot evidence of a thermal event taking place in the latch chip, A small patch of dullness in the shape of what could be a heat pattern has marred the chip surface ever so slightly .

I have ordered the latch chip and 2 spares (In case I screw up, and in the event they prove useful in robotics), the chip swap should be a snap for me. I already swapped the reel's Schmitt triggers and that was cake. (I was wild guessing what I could have blown up when I started this effort years ago I needed to develop my skills before I approached it again not to mention the bruised ego of what I had done.)

I wonder if the meter bypass trick works on the 40x platform.  I know for the wms 3xx and 5xx you can bypass the meter by jumping a pair of pins.
  I will have to look at the 4xx backplane to see if the pinout is the same as the 5xx platform. If it is not, we can just move the wires around so that the same pins are jumpered.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=71.msg66457#msg66457 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=71.msg66457#msg66457)

Congrats on your progress and troubleshooting, CyberPeres, and for sticking with this.  Hopefully the meter board is your issue and if so, your posts will help someone else in the future I'm sure.

Thanks for looking !  The information might become quite useful, I'd love to get some kind of awareness of the pinout of that board.

Thanks for the cool words, I have been living with one of my greatest tech failures in my face for a long time now. It's like having your worst mistake in your living room in your face day after after day year after year just mocking you. As heavy as these thing are you just don't move them on a whim.  For the first time I think I have a chance. I am sticking it out this time and at the end should I get back online I'll post a clean approach with pics.

I just hope at least this much. The upper and lower power supplies are not the same DO NOT SWAP THEM ! If that can save one other machine then this has been at least something.

Pinout appears to be the same, so I would try jumping 8 and 13, there are no voltages involved, so you are not going to fry anything.

Thanks again, that means I can test before I get my chip delivered. Which side is pin 1 ? wait wait I see the pics , I see how that goes...

although its a single in line connector and only one row of pins on mine.... That's on the meter side, you might be talking the backplane side however. I'll check that when I get home tonight.

Yes, the plug would go into the motherboard, no sense on having the wire running to the meter board, more clutter.

I think this was also covered in an older posting by Clay.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=1086.msg7749#msg7749 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=1086.msg7749#msg7749)

Thanks, that's cool.

That confirms it then. I'm going to go make 3 of them for my machines then. Karma  :259- for finding the old post.

You might want me to test mine first. I am already in hot water...

OK, that worked.......  I actually got to play two games before the system went unstable again. starting cold I am completely stable for a few minutes and after it degrades reels act jerky I get odd light flashes etc... It deteriorates to the point I remember from my original power supply issue. it starts into cycles of system restarts. I hear a hiss also. That was a telltale sign when I lost the top power supply, which I was able to get new off the shelf from the board mfg.  I got a hiss a few hours before it went down, Same with the original lower power supply. I replaced that one with one I got from ebay so who knows how good it was and I just replaced the inner board not the whole unit.

With the pattern of malfunction I cannot rule out the backplane either. But this feels like power supply to me.

I have heard some of you guys use computer power supplies, is that easy or practical ?

Use of ATX type computer power supplies is very practical and popular on WMS Dotmation slot machines. See the sticky threads at the top of this (WMS Reel Games) forum. You can use 2 separate ATX power supplies or just one to replace the upper and lower original power supplies.

I agree, sounds like a power supply issue.

Well the top one blew out about two weeks after I got the machine. I replaced it with a brand new one. I was hoping at the time it would grant it immortality, as I paid through the nose for it. I also figured being 2004 that the issues may have been engineered out of the design from the factory 1995 units. I have been doing some digging from my last post and find that Newark can still get me an original (45 day lead time which sounds oddly familiar to me as I think I went through that with the top one, it turned out a whole lot faster) That one goes for 110.00 which is a lot cheaper than I paid before. I don't remember though all those details from before, that was a long time ago. When the lower went a couple of months later I could not get a good part number read from anybody and wasn't really able to match it reliably, so I bought a used on on ebay. I did not find you guys then. From the other dude I seem to have a good read on the part now. But I have to be completely sure before I order.

Now the more interesting part of the Newark story is they have a substitute for 30 dollars more, this substitute is medically certified and they have them off the shelf.

Now I have a lot of things to think about.... I'd like to be more stable, I'd also like to keep as original as possible. If I could find a source of game chips (vid,sound and game), also a correct reset chip I'd be likely to go more pricey, standard and long term (I am not sure I even have that completely yet, the guy that I was dealing with was very unreliable he sent me three reset chips (different versions) before one did not error.)

even better I'd like to acquire the gear and skills to master my own, true immortality!


http://www.newark.com/xp-power/pu110-31a/power-supply-85-264vac-5v-12v-110w/dp/52M9432?CMP=KNC-G-DAS-ALL&mckv=kMV575ew (http://www.newark.com/xp-power/pu110-31a/power-supply-85-264vac-5v-12v-110w/dp/52M9432?CMP=KNC-G-DAS-ALL&mckv=kMV575ew)|pcrid|dynamictrackcampaigns

Yeah,  it was the original thing I was trying to correct in the first place. Talk about going in circles. I have also been studying as much as I can find on Williams backplanes. I think I have pretty much ruled it out. I still can't wait to see if I can fix the meter board with the 8 bit latch chip replacement I have. I am aiming for total victory. It felt good to get a couple of plays out of it !

Sounds like you believe the lower power supply is bad, and that is likely from your fault description.

Just for info, if you ever just need to replace the top power supply it is fairly easy. That power supply only supplies 12vdc to the Dotmation controller and the dot matrix screen, that's it. So you just have to connect the 12vdc wire from the dot controller board and from the dot matrix screen to the 12vdc wire from the ATX power supply, plus a ground wire. The ATX power supply will also need to have its power enable line grounded, that's just a simple jumper and is covered in the sticky posts mentioned above. You can do it with molex connectors (better method), or just wire-tie the connections to get things going.

Is it possible that the replacement power supply you installed was new-old-stock (NOS) that was several years old even though it hadn't ever been used? There's some really old stuff still floating around that went from warehouse to warehouse over the years, gets rediscovered and listed for sale.

The power supplies were the weak links in the Dotmation machines.  The ATX power supply fixes documented in the sticky posts in this topic work well, and at only a small cost plus some time and labor.

No, it was obviously old when I got it. And I replaced the top one with a factory fresh one I custom ordered, I think they actually built it for me fresh. It's the most solid thing I have ever seen in a computer related purchase hands down. It wasn't a new off the shelf old stock either. I paid dearly for it. If I am a 100 percent sure I have a match on the part number I'll do it again for the lower one

I'll keep it in mind as a future stand by option, or if the wife pulls my funding plug before I can get the decision made.

Ok, everyone, I pulled the trigger I ordered the Newark one. Years ago when I got the upper supply they had a ridiculous lead time, I had it in like two weeks. We'll see this time. I have not been operation since Mid Sept - Oct of 2004 I think I can wait a bit more.

At least I have seen my machine act stable, even if it's just a round or two, now I'm keeping it asleep until I get the new power supply in.

Now that I am waiting for my power supply to be created, what can you guys tell me about how to figure out what reset chip is actually right, and how I can get my hands on backup game chips. Back in the early 2000's it looked like I could get any chipset I wanted from many sources. Today I can't seem to find any Williams dotmation sets.  When I find stuff it all seems to be IGT stuff.  What happened? Is there a software provider you guys use?

I'd love to find all the things I'd need to convert to a Big Bang Piggy Bankin Machine, as I already have the game chips on hand. I'd need the reels, sound chips and video chips from what I understand. Is a conversion even possible ?

It's possible, but since these machines are well out of casino's, most dealers no longer have a source for them.  Unfortunately a lot of them who did not end up in the US home market, went overseas and will never come back.  The only reason why parts exists at any given time is because wholesalers buy a machine lots from casinos as  parts complete machines but not guaranteed to be functional.  So the wholesalers usually fixes up whatever they can, and cannibalize machines to get however many they can working, then sell off the remaining working parts.  When the source for parts compete machines dries up, no more parts are restocked.  And a lot of machines end up getting junked for their metal content, a horrible thing to say the least.  Rudysdeals right now has a 9" top glass and 2 coin belly glass for big bang piggy banking.

PM me if you need reel strips.

Pretty much what I thought, which is going to make it harder as time goes on. I see why it's important to get spare stuff when you can. This is where I should have done most of this back when it first happened instead of doing the duck and cover thing every time I hit a wall. I just did not have the documentation and the online help was sketchy at best. I don't think I would have ever figured out the meter board thing without this site. Or got good confirmation on the lower power part number. I did call a few places, and parts suppliers but even that help was elusive and not always correct. Now I have really good documentation and there seems to be better communication between people who know stuff.  Thanks all for at least looking at my plight.

It was bad when about 35 - 50% of the time I got parts that were just plain wrong even after telling them yes it's a Williams Piggy Bankin 40X reel slot. I got sold wrong I/O cards (a video one), wrong reset chips, wrong game chips, bad power supplies, etc.

CyberPeres-

Have you downloaded the Williams 40X Service Manual from this website? It has a lot of good information, including a complete parts breakdown, a list of part numbers for all the circuit boards, bulbs, etc. Plus it has setup instructions, how to replace major assemblies, do a game change, and other very useful info. It is avail over in the download section:

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=downloads;cat=121 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=downloads;cat=121)

As far as software/firmware it is still fairly easily available for most games from slot dealers and private sales from hobbyists. You can send a message to member blueridgeslots here on NLG for example and I'm pretty sure he can sell you any of the variations of Big Bang Piggy Bankin software on eprom. The variations for BBPB were 2, 3 and 5 coin, plus variations for denomination like nickel, quarter, dollar. He also has the ram clear chips that are needed if you do things like a game changeover or just need to clear a hard fault (which WMS calls a "tilt", I guess from their pinball days) after replacing boards.

From what I've seen the parts needed to convert from one Dotmation game to another are generally out there, you just have to search and ask around. These machines were made in 3 physical formats called 16 inch, 9 inch and roundtop. This refers to the size of the top box. So there are decorative glass pieces in these different sizes.

There is a sticky note at the top of this forum that details how to do a game change. It basically consists of changing up to 8 eproms (up to 4 sound chips and 2 chips for game OS, these are all on the cpu board; plus changing 2 chips on the Dotmation controller board in the top box for the game's dot matrix graphics/animation). There is a third eprom on the Dotmation controller board, this is for the Dot board's OS, but you can usually leave it alone unless it is an older software version below 5.xx. The last revision was 5.14 I believe.

That does the software, then you have to change the reel strips so you have the correct symbols. And the upper and lower (belly) glass pieces get changed. Sometimes the middle glass (payline glass) also gets changed due to subtle differences but many owners don't bother with that.

Even though they are older machines there are often parts still available and connections thru a website such as NLG is very helpful.

game change info:

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=805.0 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=805.0)

Cool thanks, I was just reading it. I also have one I got the last time I made an attempt at it. When the incident first happened I only found "pieces" of the manual on line. Today it's pretty open now.

Fantastic !

CyberPeres-

http://www.pinrepair.com/arcade/wmsslot.htm (http://www.pinrepair.com/arcade/wmsslot.htm)

The website above has a good essay on the history and variations of the Williams (WMS) 400 series of slot machines. It was written by one of the members here and he has a lot of knowledge on these particular machines. You will find that there were several games in the Dotmation series made. Parts of his website have links that no longer work to navigate around, so sometimes you have to do a google search and let it find the webpage for you.

Basically, the Dotmations are WMS models 40S, they were based on the model 400, which was a 3 reel slot machine but without the Dotmation dot matrix display in the top box. I've seen pictures of a slanted Dotmation model slot machine that you sit in front of but I don't think it is widely available.

If you have the Piggy Bankin' machine then that is the older, original game. Later Williams updated and changed it to Big Bang Piggy Bankin' so that is likely part of the cause of confusion you had with dealers when checking on parts. They are much more used to dealing with people that have the newer BBPB game. Plus they are used to selling parts for the WMS 550 model (video model), which is similar in many ways but not the same as the 40X models.

The older version you have is fun to play, and it has a different strategy involving the bank of coins award. The glass is different between the machines but you don't have to absolutely change the glass to play either version. If you get both sets of software you can switch back & forth. Not sure if the reel strips are different, my guess is they do have different symbols. Remember that the reel strips are just for the player's eyes, the slot will play correctly even if you have no strips on the reels. Just looks a lot better with the correct strips.

The ram clear chip you will need comes in different variations depending on the coin denomination of your game. So if you do convert your machine it might be good to keep the same denomination on both games so there would be less parts to worry about, like the ram clear chip, the coinage sign, the coin comparator, coin hopper, etc. You may be able to also keep the same max number of coins feature (2, 3 or 5 coin) so that the glass is somewhat relevant if you don't replace it. I'm not recommending you create a frankenstein but it is your machine, you can do things in phases and still be able to play it in the meantime.

That's good advice. The reason we have this machine is in the mid 90's my wife and I Love both Piggy Bankin and Big Bang Piggy Bankin. Really, we actually went on trips (Vegas, Atlantic City, Reno, Canada, etc) looking for just these two machines and not playing much else. So when they disappeared from casinos it broke our hearts. Just imagine the look on my wife's face when I destroyed ours only a couple of months of play. I don't think I'll ever forget that. Then to have the machine sit there nonoperational making random repair attempts, she's still not convinced I am going to win this time doesn't count the play I have done as real play or hope that I finally have this beat yet.   I am well aware of the broad game difference between the two, and some of the coin differences, it bothered me that the dealers did not and made getting help hard. They kept trying to tie it back to the piggy based video series (which I do not count as real piggy bankin). Although I did see in Reno couple of weeks ago that one of the WMS piggy themed games had the Big Bang Spinner in it.

I have thought about starting with a reel set and all the chips to support it and do swaps at will. I just have to be careful, my reel cages are not going to stand up to a change as they are brittle and damaged, the reel cards they hold keep them together and usable. I have to get a set of full reel hardware and swap the removable units.

At this point I am looking to be up and running and stable first. With good backups and maybe some other chip version variations of the non-big-bang game.

I do have couple video slot parts I'd be willing to trade or sell. Primarily an I/0 card and a video card (I think). When I got the CPU replacement it was attached and the I/O card it was sold with as a package deal with was supposed to be the one I needed. It turned out the CPU card was the same for what they confused it with but the I/O card even though it fit the slot and was similar was different than what I needed (No reel drivers). My guess is it would be for a 550.

You guys have me thinking, My menu control trouble might be that I have a reset chip from the video 550 model. For some reason it will clear and let me play but doesn't let the system set the control interface up for the mechanical menu choices quite right. It will be interesting to see what I can and can't do once I get the power stable again. Right now I'm keeping it off so I am not exposing the system to wild power fluctuations.

I have read their Piggy Bankin Page, I have tried to email them just before I found you guys. So far no response.

http://www.pinrepair.com/slots/wms/pigbank.htm (http://www.pinrepair.com/slots/wms/pigbank.htm)

I believe I've read or been told that if you have credits on the machine (i.e. something other than zero credits on credit meter) or if the machine was in the middle of a payout (hopper or credit payout) then the menu system will not allow you to change certain settings. Others here with more experience than myself can verify if this is true. That may be covered in the side notes in the WMS 40X Service Manual you've been reading, not sure.

The guy behind those pinrepair pages is super-experienced on the Dotmation machines as well as other arcade/amusements machines. But he is often busy or away from home, somewhat elusive and generally a bit eccentric. This isn't meant to be a slam, just saying he sometimes doesn't reply to requests so don't feel slighted if you don't hear anything.

I also consider that emails can get eaten up by the great spam filtering monster, I sometimes get emails to me zapped for no go reason at work. Besides, I don't expect an answer from every email I send fishing for help. People can be busy, or not active anymore. I could see with a nice site like his getting hounded pretty bad.

Right I have seen that also. Once I am stable I can see what is what then. Now it's all just guesswork and waiting....

That's good advice. The reason we have this machine is in the mid 90's my wife and I Love both Piggy Bankin and Big Bang Piggy Bankin. Really, we actually went on trips (Vegas, Atlantic City, Reno, Canada, etc) looking for just these two machines and not playing much else. So when they disappeared from casinos it broke our hearts. Just imagine the look on my wife's face when I destroyed ours only a couple of months of play. I don't think I'll ever forget that. Then to have the machine sit there nonoperational making random repair attempts, she's still not convinced I am going to win this time doesn't count the play I have done as real play or hope that I finally have this beat yet.   I am well aware of the broad game difference between the two, and some of the coin differences, it bothered me that the dealers did not and made getting help hard. They kept trying to tie it back to the piggy based video series (which I do not count as real piggy bankin). Although I did see in Reno couple of weeks ago that one of the WMS piggy themed games had the Big Bang Spinner in it.

I have thought about starting with a reel set and all the chips to support it and do swaps at will. I just have to be careful, my reel cages are not going to stand up to a change as they are brittle and damaged, the reel cards they hold keep them together and usable. I have to get a set of full reel hardware and swap the removable units.

At this point I am looking to be up and running and stable first. With good backups and maybe some other chip version variations of the non-big-bang game.

I do have couple video slot parts I'd be willing to trade or sell. Primarily an I/0 card and a video card (I think). When I got the CPU replacement it was attached and the I/O card it was sold with as a package deal with was supposed to be the one I needed. It turned out the CPU card was the same for what they confused it with but the I/O card even though it fit the slot and was similar was different than what I needed (No reel drivers). My guess is it would be for a 550.
[/quote]


That's similar to myself and others. Players from that time period missed playing these games after they started getting yanked from casino floors to put in the newer video based machines. Up until a couple of years ago you could still find the Piggy dotmation slot machine and its sister Jackpot Stampede at the Las Vegas Club in downtown Las Vegas. But I haven't seen one anywhere in LV on my last few trips. So as they came up on the resell market we looked into getting one or two. Some of the folks here have several of them. Williams was an early developer of improving the slot machine experience with better sound, graphics and player interaction. So it made an impression on people back then, add in some nostalgic feelings today and a little disposable income - people look to own them.

As I get more familiar with slot machines I see that certain game themes are reused over & over by the same company. I guess once the slot company licenses or develops a theme then they roll it out on a new platform whenever they think it will be popular, saves costs on coming up with or buying a new theme. So you will see the Piggy theme on new machines in a casino today.

As you say the reels can crack from too much handling. Many owners get another set of reels and just leave the strips on them, then swap out the complete reel when you do a game change. The reels can often be bought for a reasonable/low price if you watch for them. The reels come off the reel driver assy easily, have just a spring clip (e-clip) holding them on. On startup they automatically initialize to the correct position.

Any extra parts you don't need can be listed for sale in the Classifieds section. Just include the part number info of what you have, or a picture that clearly shows it. Folks will be able to tell what it is from that, you don't really have to know yourself. Put a good short description in the message header so people can quickly get an idea of what you have. If you aren't sure of pricing just ask for offers or opinions.

Thanks, I did not think about the classifieds here. That's a good idea.

[/i]


That's similar to myself and others. Players from that time period missed playing these games after they started getting yanked from casino floors to put in the newer video based machines. Up until a couple of years ago you could still find the Piggy dotmation slot machine and its sister Jackpot Stampede at the Las Vegas Club in downtown Las Vegas. But I haven't seen one anywhere in LV on my last few trips. So as they came up on the resell market we looked into getting one or two. Some of the folks here have several of them. Williams was an early developer of improving the slot machine experience with better sound, graphics and player interaction. So it made an impression on people back then, add in some nostalgic feelings today and a little disposable income - people look to own them.

As I get more familiar with slot machines I see that certain game themes are reused over & over by the same company. I guess once the slot company licenses or develops a theme then they roll it out on a new platform whenever they think it will be popular, saves costs on coming up with or buying a new theme. So you will see the Piggy theme on new machines in a casino today.

As you say the reels can crack from too much handling. Many owners get another set of reels and just leave the strips on them, then swap out the complete reel when you do a game change. The reels can often be bought for a reasonable/low price if you watch for them. The reels come off the reel driver assy easily, have just a spring clip (e-clip) holding them on. On startup they automatically initialize to the correct position.

Any extra parts you don't need can be listed for sale in the Classifieds section. Just include the part number info of what you have, or a picture that clearly shows it. Folks will be able to tell what it is from that, you don't really have to know yourself. Put a good short description in the message header so people can quickly get an idea of what you have. If you aren't sure of pricing just ask for offers or opinions.




[/quote]

Well I got the latch chips today. I'll probably make an attempt at a meter board repair long before I see the power supply. I just have to think in the long run do I just not use the meter (but still fix it for the sake of being able to be complete if wanted) or put everything back to rights. I think I have a while to decide before I see my new power board. It's going to be a hard wait to find out if I finally win here.

I'm thinking however (and studying), It looks like the PU-110-31A and other similar boards seem to be some kind of cross vendor industry standard power supply.  I wonder by getting them the way I have with 3rd party vendor being original specified part based, maybe I have eliminated the "40X power supply weakness" long term. I am thinking maybe  the original vender made batches of these things a little too cheaply thus the issues. Only built to last the "lifetime" million pulls and no more.

Maybe by buying industry standard factory fresh units (my upper one was a purchased about nine years ago just like the lower one I just ordered) and not new (old) casino stock, I granted the immortality I seek to the pdu systems.

I just hope the board is not deemed "obsolete" by the factory and I stay in backorder/lead-time hell without feedback forever. Newark is a very good supplier and I have to trust them right now that they would indicate the phase out and order suppress.

I went with the real  PU-110-31A  part on this and not their indicated substitute (which they did have stock), The data sheet looked like it was missing the smaller second connector, and I could not confirm I would not need some mods to wire it in.  If it comes to it I'll get them on the phone and get a pin match to confirm it should I not be able to obtain the actual specked part.

As you noted, the Dotmations in the Las Vegas Club finally disappeared.  There are still three or four of them in operation inside of Mermaids, a slot-only dive casino on Fremont Street in downtown Las Vegas.

CyberPeres-

Did you read this interesting message thread about a lower power supply problem on a Dotmation machine that caused lights to flicker, booting problems, erratic operation. He specifically tracked it back to the 18vdc and 5vdc called "5vi" that is produced by the lower power supply. Interesting to read.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=337.0

Ha - check this out!  

While I was laying on my back peering up into the back of this Dotmation slot machine to see where the door switch ground wires go I saw the bottom part of a large token stuck tightly between the rear corner of the slot chassis and the heavy frame of the bill validator. I didn't want to remove the bill validator so it took me several minutes to encourage the token to drop out of there. This machine is setup for quarters, and has been for several years according to the previous owner. But this is a large 50 cent token from the Greektown Casino in Detroit. Either it somehow got inside the machine like thru the air vents, or maybe this slot was a 50 cent denom at one time. I think I remember the casinos in Kansas City using tokens many years ago, they did it to try to control how much a person could gamble in a certain time period, eventually stopped trying to do this. Before you could buy more tokens to use on the machines they checked to see how much you had already spent on tokens, the state had set a limit ($500 I think) of how much you could spend every 2 hours. They had to use tokens because if the machines took real money people would just bring their own in from home to get around the law. This was when the casinos were first allowed to operate in the state, I guess the legislators were wanting to watch over & protect us from ourselves.

Anyway it was funny finding this after who knows how long its been in there.

Those Mermaids girls get bored standing around all the time, so they can be friendly!
[guy in the middle of that Mermaid sandwich isn't me]


knagl- do you remember which Dotmations they have in Mermaids? I'll have to stop by there next time thru, maybe they'll have one I haven't seen or played.

I know they had one of the "different" Jackpot Party themes -- either Country Party or Beach Party.  Probably a regular Jackpot Party, too.  I don't remember what the others were.

I'll be in Vegas in a month -- I'll try to remember to swing in there and report back on the lineup.

Last time I was out there I noticed a few "small" casinos on Fremont that had really old machines I bet that was one of them.  I like that those places exist. They can sometimes be a lot of fun kind of playing with the past.

No, but I am certainly going to now, Thanks !

cool. I just got back from Reno myself, hit the National Air Races and Hit the slots. I have to say the newest slots take psychological warfare to a new level, especially to the unwary.

That's actually really neat, but holy cow on the laws, that's tight. Although much like when work Christmas parties use drink tickets to control drunks, they always find away around it.

Mermaids had the Jackpot Party theme, about 4 in a row the last time I was there a few months ago. The Las Vegas Club got rid of there's, they had Big Bang Piggy Bankin, X-Factor and Jackpot Stampede Deluxe.

Ok, that gives me the next place to look if the board alone doesn't do the trick. The repair sounds easy enough to do even if the diagnostics leading to it are a bit beyond me.

Wait. Wait a second, the diagnostics are not beyond me, and I think I just get the theory behind it. Really it's not so bad. I get it now. I could get this whole thing back online with one cap that I have tons laying around. Some values, I have bagfuls of them. If this looks safe to try it's worth it, and I'll still keep the board as a backup. It will at least keep me busy while waiting and sounds right inline with my issues.

I figured the cap operation was a blind dice roll and known weak part anyway so it should only help in the long run so I figured what the heck. So I installed the new capacitor, the operation was clean and fairly easy, however it did not improve the situation. In fact I feel a bit worse off in a way and weirdly a bit more stable in another.  Now I get rebooting single bongs instead of a degrading situation. I think I still have a bad main power board. The only thing I can think of is I disturbed the main board enough it degraded what little performance was left. Or and this is a big "or" the person who laid out the repair was wrong that it possibly could just be the cap and I need to change the chip out at the same time as the cap. We'll anyway I might order the chip and wait for the power supply to get here before I mess with it again. The next time I shouldn't go so blindly at it, I'll actually think about component checks as I go.

The other thing is remembering back to the original top power issue I had fixed, the situation was a quickly degrading one until it just stopped dead, maybe it's just I pushed too far on the main board and it said "I quit!"

My other option could be to acquire a new whole power "can" as well. If I can find one. Maybe I should back off though and wait for a bit for the board to get here before I make things even worse.

Have you put a meter on the primary voltages created by the lower power supply to see if they are close to nominal? Also, on the I/O board there are 5 lights/LEDs on the front right side as you look into the card cage. These lights should be on & steady, they monitor the main power supply voltages, do they all look ok? Usually (but not always) machines with a bad lower power supply will have some of these I/O lights dark.  (there is also a single LED over on the opposite corner of the I/O board, it is a "fail" LED that indicates a fail/tilt/error has been sensed. Some of the folks here are pretty good at diagnosing problems just from the status of the I/O board LED's.

If it gets to the point where you want to try a new power board for the lower power supply, send me a PM

CyberPeres-

Have you visited the upstairs/2nd floor at the "D" (was Fitzgeralds) in downtown Las Vegas on Fremont St? The owners have dedicated that area to slot machines from the recent past, have some oldies but goodies in there including the mechanical horse racing machine called Sigma Derby. You can easily go upstairs from out on Fremont St via an escalator they have on the front side of the building. I didn't see any Dotmations there last time but they did have other machines that were popular at one time. Also, if you rent a car in Vegas and can go to some of the outlying smaller casinos there's no telling what you'll find there since they often can't afford to spend the thousands of dollars on latest machines.

Good luck with getting your machine working, hope the lower power supply is the final fix. An overvoltage like sending 12v down a 5v line can really play havoc with many of the electronic components.

Good question/comment. Not only do I have the capability to meter I also have a handheld scope I can use (as long as I am careful it's a DSO Nano and I am use to using it on small voltages/currents when I working with my Aurduino / Parallax stuff I normally play with). I am just unsure of myself enough on how to approach the tests. Can I plug the "can" out of the machine and test it?  If I can to that is there a pinout sheet on the connectors I can find?

The I/O lights they are on and steady (I need to recheck them since I replaced that cap on the second board.) That's why the cap repair drew my attention. In fact I am still working on that thread. I ordered the 630-HCPL-3700-000E chip from mouser today. My guess is since my behavior changed I might be working in the right area. I think the author of that thread (who did replace both the chip and the cap) may have been wrong about just needing the cap.

when the system is on (while steady) the DS1 fail light is not illuminated, and a few times I either make it through boot (barely) and sometimes I get one game to play (increasing less and less as I go on).   when it leaves being steady the DS1 light comes on.  The power lights on the other side stay steady and I go into reboot bong fits once unstable.

I do hear a power supply type hiss also, this is same as when I did the upper, I got a hiss and then I was in a degrading situation where the dotmation would go down after shorter and shorter runs. replacing the upper supply with a factory fresh unit cured it on the spot.

However, I am going to try to test the voltages and get a solid diagnostic this time around. I feel like I am swinging at a piñata with a blindfold in with the approach I am taking now.

Just for everyone to know, I did order a factory fresh PU-110-31A board from Newark, they have a 45 day lead time on it. But when I ordered my upper I was given a similar lead time but I had it in two weeks, we'll see....

I have an order in for a factory PU-110-31A right now, it's got a 45 day lead time.  If something goes horribly wrong with the order I'll give you a PM.

Actually, yes it was 1997 however.... I am also pretty sure my machine was there (in the main area) at that casino at that time. Where the player card system was there is a O'Lucky Bucks and O'Lucky Cents graphics around the displays for player comp feedback. I am pretty sure that was what they were doing at the time. Unless one of you guys knows more about it.

That made me think.... I was sad in Reno a few weeks ago, the Fitzgeralds there is dead and boarded up now.

This is where the HCPL-3700 chip throwing fits makes sense to me.  Erratic behavior on the auxiliary 5 volt line makes sense to me. I just don't know how to meter that one.

It may be what my first issue was all along. maybe I blew my machine into tar for nothing.

I've not tried it but would think that you could remove the entire lower power supply unit (the metal box) and plug it into a 115v line cord, then measure the various voltages coming out of it. There may be a connector list or pictures somewhere on this website so you'd know where to check the voltages. You will be needing to remove it anyway to install the new power supply board from Newark.

There is a document on this site that has drawings of the various assemblies in different WMS slot machines, it probably has the lower power supply as well and maybe the connector definitions. Try looking at this one, somewhere around pdf page 29, maybe earlier:

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=939 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=939)


The hissing sound may be a failing part inside the lower power supply metal box, so you should probably do a good visual inspection and sniff test after you remove it and can open it up for a good look inside, before you power it up and do anything else. Your eyes & nose may find something wrong a lot faster than doing meter & scope checks. After you get it removed from the machine and opened up spend a little time doing a thorough look-over. Also, as you are removing the entire lower power supply and then disassembling it you might want to take pictures along the way, could be real helpful a few days or weeks from now when it is time to put it back together. Lots of elec cables, screws and stuff that you could easily forget what goes where.

If that HCPL chip is powered by 5v and it was hit with 12v during "the big event" it could have gotten zapped.

That's one of my thoughts also, except that 5 volt supply is suppose to be independent by it's function, and I have been inspecting inside the can while I replaced the cap that was shown in the post someone linked here on the matter.  I don't see anything obvious. I think these hisses are generally coil whines when other components fail or start to fail. They start to act like speaker coils because they start operating in the audio harmonics range. But that's just a guess from me. Thanks for that link I'll check it out.

Yeah, I took pictures, and I also mark cables with a marker. The boards are mostly marked with their numbers J1, J2, etc.  I have learned my lesson from repairing other electronics in the past. It's good to bring up here because not everyone has the same experience. You can get into real trouble if not careful. With my initial event I proved that in spades.

I finally got the HCPL-3700  chips in the mail yesterday.  I have some thinking to do, I think I am going to socket the chip rather than risk the heating. I know have 8 pin sockets on hand. I don't think I have 6 pin ones. I can mod or see if radio shack carries what I need but I'll get my next answer in either case soon. I really hope this is it.


Still no motion on my order for the lower supply board I custom ordered. If it comes to that it's going to be a wait, and I'll start seriously checking the outputs and get actual meter and scope readings in the mean time. Now that I have all the schematics and system diagrams I got from here posted  on this site, I can really look at this. The main power board is a bit over my head but the secondary card in the can is pretty simple.

Ok, the work went well, however I am in the same boat. I put the socket in, it did happen to be a 8 pin chip. I ordered 3 chips, the first one out of the pack was some other chip (I have to look it up yet) that had six pins the other two in the pack were right. While I was disassembling the can I noticed some crumbly looking material I could not find where it came from so I figured it might be from my original bad power supply. while assembling the can I found a resistor on a daughter card of the main power supply board that looked like the coating was scuffed and the metallic case underneath exposed slightly. No char no sign of thermal damage but the crusty stuff must have come from it.  Looks like I have to wait for the power supply now. I am guessing more than one component is dead or dying here.

News finally news ! After a long wait I have been informed my power board is on it's way ! A brand new factory board ! Not old casino shelf stock. Wow I actually think they built one fresh for me. Now soon we'll see if all this waiting pays off.  The cost of this is somewhere around 150 dollars complete. Not bad considering being brand new. I also hope that all the old weaknesses are engineered out, as I find this board was used for far more than these slots. Well anyway, I have waited years just to be this far, that 2.5 month wait was just a blip.

 :275- :310- :275- :310-

It's ALIVE...... It's ALIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (About friggin time too....)

Now I am truly scared !!!!!!!!! The board did the trick! The only noise besides running is the light hum of the florescent lighting ! No coil noise, no gut wrenching flashing or any jittery anything !

I want to THANK EVERYBODY here that helped me. You guys are fantastic ! Now I worry about the chips bit-rotting, and other assort nightmare stuff, right now I feel a bit gun-shy and more than a bit shell shocked. things like "did I really do it?" "how long until I kill it again?" "will the wife ever forgive me or trust my electronics skill?"

Right now I am a bit overwhelmed, I am operating, fine. But can I change the settings? (IE. did the crumb that sold me the half dead power supply give me the wrong reset chip?) For now I think I'll back off and enjoy what I have. My biggest problem on working on stuff like this is doing one last thing. Not this time.... It took 10 years to get back online I'm not about to lose that for now.

I wholly believe the only way to  go on this issue is get your hands on a factory fresh power board. If I loose this one down the road I think I am going to get the "equivalent" replacement. That one is not special order and is certified to medical standards. This time I wanted the original specified board.

Guys and Gals, these power boards are not casino machine specific, they are standard off the shelf power boards, my new one is from xp power, bought from Newark.

BIGGEST LESSON LEARNED ----> DO NOT ASSUME UPPER AND LOWER POWER BOARDS ARE THE SAME (You will fry just about everything !) . AND ALSO WHEN YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER YOU ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOW MORE THAN YOU.

proof.

Looks good :105- :136-

Good to hear you got it going. Don't be afraid to change settings like the volume level, attract mode and other preferences, it's all covered in the manual. Enjoy the play, it's a classic!

Thanks for the good words !

Still working !!!!!!!!! Yea !  :72-

However I made an attempt to adjust settings... I get into the menus ok and I can even cycle the "focus" to different data digit fields, but pressing "spin reels" is not changing the data however. I get a sound that makes me think it's rejecting the input. I suspect that my reset chip was for a 40X, 50X video slot and the settings are locked somehow. You'd think I would not get a clean clear or even operate, but it does and I do play well now.

Which particular setting are you having trouble getting to change?

I've heard that some settings can not be changed if you have credits currently on the machine. If you have credits on it try playing off the credits down to 0 and then see if you can change the setting. I don't think the reset chip is the same for the 40X machines as for the 5XX models so hopefully you have the one for 40X. Your machine is a 40S5 model (right?) so the 40X reset chip is the correct one, is used on models 400, 401, 40S5 from what I know. I don't think any of the settings can be locked by a reset chip.

If it is the volume you are trying to change be aware that some games only let you change volume on SND1 setting, the other sounds are then adjusted by the software, not user settable. You'll see something like "AUTO" displayed when this occurs.

 :331-

I came here to post this.

Thanks, that pointed me in the right direction, you were right my chip is good. also right is the change settings were blocked (flagged off) by a state. It wasn't the credits that were blocking it. I had a bill-door open tilt code. when I open the machine I jarred the bill door, there is some slop in it. it's just enough to cause the code, and the code blocks changes.  eventually i'll try to fix the mechincal issue but for now a simple jumper work. You guys got me thinking a software flag was what I was seeing. it was a matter of what flag.

That's good you are getting familiar with the diagnostics and figured out this problem with the bill door tilt.

There are a couple of switches that can cause nuisance problems and many homeowners simply defeat the switches to eliminate the possibility of those problems since the switches are not needed for home use. The 2 switches are on the right side of the machine while facing it, inside the bill compartment. Near the pull handle there is a door that allows access into the compartment area where the paper money (bills) is stored. In the bottom of this compartment there is a spring loaded switch that sticks up into the compartment thru a slot, it is near the back portion of the compartment. You can simply put a piece of duct tape or similar over the slot in the compartment to keep the switch pressed down. Or you can look up under this area inside the machine above the hopper and disconnect one of the switch wires. This switch is to sense if the paper money storage box is removed and most homeowners take this box out for convenience.

Also, there is another switch in the top portion of this same paper money storage compartment. It is to sense if the paper money storage compartment door itself is opened/unlocked. This is the switch that can cause a lot of nuisance faults. The door lock and cam are often worn or out of alignment, or someone replaced them and the cam isn't the right length. Again, many homeowners defeat this switch with tape or you can simply pull one of the wires loose from the switch. An open circuit is seen as a "good" signal on these circuits. To remove one of the wires from the upper switch you may have to temporarily remove the bill validator to get to it.

Both of these switches have wire connections using slip-on/slip-off spade connectors. Also, the voltage on the wires is a low voltage logic signal so it is safe. If you disconnect a wire it is probably best to tie it back or tape it up so it can't accidentally touch the chassis. Another method is to move one of the wires to the unused terminal on the switch. It can stay there for safekeeping, these switches have 3 terminals - common, Norm Open and Norm Closed. If you do move the wire to the unused terminal on the switch then you don't want to also use the tape method, as this could put the circuit back in fault mode (depending on which 2 terminals of the switch you used).