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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Chedderboy on December 29, 2010, 03:42:59 AM



Title: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: Chedderboy on December 29, 2010, 03:42:59 AM
I have a Bally $1 slot machine that has been sitting for a long time.  The last owner had it for 15 years and his son ended up selling it to me (custom dust cover included!).  The problem is that the machine doesn't pay correctly - at all.  It appears to have new reel strips, but I'm wondering if the tins were installed in the wrong postiions?  I tried to line up the deepest cuts on the reels in the back and it paid off like a jackpot - but the 7's were not even close.  

Any ideas or should I just start saving to have it shopped out?  Machine is immaculate (glass/crome/everyting).  Is it possible the reel tins were installed 1/4 or more out of position? 

How does one align the reel strips?  Deepest groove to the 7s in back?


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: Neonkiss on December 29, 2010, 09:41:38 PM
Yes, Deepest grove is usually 7's or jackpot.
The reel strips sometimes slide on the tin reels. They had center-punch crimps to prevent them from sliding around when the reels stop abruptly.
If the reel strips were replaced with new one (sometime back) they may be loose. try sliding them to see if they move around the reels. if not,
Line up the deepest grove and see if the seven is out by a 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of the way. The tin reels fit on the shaft 4 way. They are not keyed to fit in one direction only.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: Chedderboy on February 05, 2011, 02:46:40 AM
Thanks for the help.  The reel strips are on tight and I'm wondering if they are just incorrect?  When the machine does pay, it seems the hopper motor is laboring (at at times can't make the hopper spin to kick coins), which may be failing?   This machine is so pristine that I'll probably just take it down to LA Slots to get shopped out.  I was hoping to get it going myself, but it's probably out of league...


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: toyotaoutlaw on March 29, 2011, 03:26:41 AM
im having that same problem with mine in a way. still trying to figure it out. did you end up getting it fixed and if so what was it if you dont mind me asking


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: Chedderboy on March 31, 2011, 02:07:24 PM
I ended up taking the machine to LA Slots and had them work on it.  Their slot tech had to put the reel strips back on , as they were installed incorrectly as I had suspected.  The machine had just sat for a long time and needed to be lubed and adjusted.  It works perfect now and was well worth the three hours of labor @ $65/hr. 


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: Karliesdad88 on August 12, 2013, 01:45:59 AM
im having the same issue. some of the symbols do not line up correctly. I am going to try and fix it myself


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 05, 2013, 04:48:27 AM
I'm in the process of doing all that and more, what i have figured out was to 1st make sure the reels and wiper boards are all in the correct place 1-2-3-4 in my case. Then set the slot to the deepest setting on all reels then find the corresponding symbol for that deepest slot in my case it was 7's. Now I had it a little bit easier to check the reels proper mounting on each hub or where they bolt on since I have 8balls that are not on the 4th reel, so I knew that my #4 reel was in the correct position but not mounted to the hub correctly. I had to unscrew the 4 screws that hold the reels in place then turn the reels to 7's to match up with the deepest slot. Temporarily remounted them all with 2 screws in each and turned them to the next groove to make sure that they were all lining up with the symbols. If not you will have to remove the tape and move them to the proper reels that will line up correctly. Of course mark everything or take pictures before you start and you can also use them to figure out where they might be best tried out 1st. With only 3 reels it shouldn't be that hard to figure out, first try rotating them on the hub and if that's not working out for 2 of them then you know that they most likely will have to have the tape swapped over and realigned starting with the deepest slot. If it's not lining up now what do you have to loose? It may take a little bit of time but it's far from impossible to figure out once you study it for a while, never jump into anything without examining it for some time, also take pictures of how it is before starting then after again to compare what went wrong or what was a partial fix or even better how you solved it.

I'm now currently trying to rewire the pins on the reel wiper boards to get the proper pay outs since mine has no usable prints schematics from what I've found out so far. this is where it gets a little bit more complex, Mine was rewired incorrectly and modified to pay wrong, I believe who ever did t was not thinking properly when they started and did not document the proper locations in case of a failed attempt. Mme has wires soldered on pins that are out of the reach of the wipers and has always hot connections on every pull it will pay out from the Blue Orange wire, (now disconnected from the pay out board).

So, if all you have to do is figure out your reels and tape, Ii would consider yourself a lucky man with a 2 or 3 hour job at hand (at most), If you see signs of wires moved on your wiper reel boards you will be in the same boat as me but I'm sure that you will not be dealing with the same monster I have, your info will be readily available to you.

Anyone reading this who has any information on the Liberty Bell Special 1967 4 reel single Quarter Bally slot Mine is marked Hyatt at Lake Tahoe on the glass, Fruit reels with a 7777 super jack pot please let me know anything will help, pictures of the pins would be the best or any type of wire to pin number cataloging to get me pointed in the right direction, even just 1st reel pins would make a huge difference in how I get started.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: rdaniel on November 05, 2013, 07:31:29 PM
Just a comment that the deepest setting (slot) is not always a 7. My 742A had a deeper slot for the bar. I did the same thing thinking the deepest slot was a the seven. I found out that it did not pay correctly. Fortunately I had marked the bar setting on the reel disk, moved the settings to the marks and all worked well.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 06, 2013, 04:30:57 PM
Most generally I have noticed that the deepest cuts seem to be the highest pays.  Likewise, cherry cuts seem to be the shallowest pays.
First, push each of your wiper assemblies all the way back.  They should line up with the last set of buttons.  If they do not, then they may be out of adjustment.
After that, then with a sharpie mark on the boards where each of the symbols index at.  You should find that oranges always index on a certain cut, and etc. etc.  If they do not, then perhaps your reel was installed incorrectly on the disc, and that is something you can fix.
If the symbols match the cuts all the way around the reels, then it's probably good to go.
You can do it all on paper to check and verify.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 07, 2013, 02:11:35 PM
That is exactly how I did mine after I figured out 1 of my reels was mounted was mounted 1/2 turn off. Then I started to tackle the modified wiring that has been done to the pins. I've been trying to get some pictures of which wires are connected to the pins on the boards so I can compare what I have to what a stock 4 reel single coin should be.

I've been doing it just by common sense, I have fixed a constant pay every pull problem and resolved incorrect payouts except for some of the wires have been removed to stop large payouts and need to figure out which wires should be shared on the 8 Ball pins it has the only $50 payout and there are no wires on the payout board connected to the 200 coin payout. also missing the 18 coin payout wire, I think it routes from a switch contact some where on the lower assembly but every solder joint has been reheated on the entire payout mech assembly so I cannot see any possible old connection as I was able to on most other wires that were loose or missing.

Any help at all would be most appreciated so I don't have to run more wires if they are not necessary.

I would buy a service manual if there was a guarantee that my model is covered in it, at least with a schematic of the pins to pay outs. But since I have a Liberty Bell Special, it has a completely different way of paying out than the 3 reel machines. Plus no multipliers. I cannot get a response back from any sellers on the content actually having this information or not. Since that s the only use I have for the manual it really would not be worth buying just to find out it isn't shown, at the tune of $30-$50 a book I can't take that chance. I only paid $170 for the machine to spend $50 on a book for a simple 1 page pin layout is way too much. Especially when I'm only a few wires away from completion.

If I cannot find any help I'm just going to add my own wring to it, there's plenty of open pins and extras on the beau plugs so it won't be a big deal to do it separately.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 07, 2013, 10:46:26 PM
Common sense trumps most anything else.
Be aware that your wipers MAY be separated.  If you look at the back of them, you may find that someone has cut out a chunk of the copper.  This is to allow for separate circuits.  e.g, you want to keep the 50 V pay circuits separated from the 6V bell circuits.
So look at your wipers, and don't let that throw you.
Rewiring a reel board isn't that difficult, but it can be very time consuming.  It is best always to try to avoid having to rewire, and look for some other solution first if possible.
More pics........?


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 09, 2013, 02:27:22 AM
What I've done so far is take an example of a 3 reel board and copied one extra reel to the diagram that plots a basic payout wire signal. I have erased all the wires and used a drawing program to replot the flow of the signals onto my 4 reel diagram. But I forgot to check to see how my wipers are divided as the contacts make connections before I started. So my drawing may be incorrect as far as exactly which pins will control each contact but the idea of how to make the signals work may right. It's kind of hard to follow since it's my rough draft and I feel asleep while doing it but while I had it in my head I gave it a go. I started to transfer what I had onto the pins in a clearer version and do it as a reel by reel colorized per assigned pin. Using red dots for cherry Orange for oranges, etc..
  Then I drew lines in for connected wires and placed dots that were the color of the wires that came from pins that I will need to run a jumper wire that makes contact on another field on the wiper plates separate areas. Then I showed payouts as a small green dot in each pin that connects to the payout boards and put a number over those dots showing the number of coins. My biggest challenge is the 3rd reel, since they all have a payout i'm going to have deal with several rows of contact plates on each row of the wiper. The first 2 are simple, using only 2 separate wiper areas to make the flow work. Once I realized that I may have the areas labeled incorrectly I stopped to see If there may be an answer here before I went out to see where the wiper blades were divided.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 09, 2013, 02:57:02 AM
It really does not matter how your wipers are divided, just be aware that they MAY be.
You can always solder a jumper to connect the wipers back to original, but be sure to separate the 6V from the 50V....


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 09, 2013, 04:40:36 PM
This is what I'm using to try and figure out the way to flow a signal path for each pay out. The problem I'm having is how toi isolate each separate pay off amount per reel. The only way I can do it is if I am using a signal from the next reel to energize the one before it. Say there's 1 cherry on reel 1 then the other 3 reels are Oranges, this means that the cherry circuit will only be able to energize the 2 coin payout,But in order for that to happen the 2 coin payout wires need to know that the signal has only gone that far and not onto the next payout or it would end up having 2 payouts hot. They way I have it now is the signal comes from the #2 reel landing on anything but the cherries and sends a signal back to the 1st reels board on a separate switching area for the cherries. but if the 2nd reel lands cherries that signal is cut and the 3rd reel will send a signal back to the 2nd reel again on a separate switching set. But once  get to reel 3 where everything has a payout there tends to be way to many possible combinations of wires that need to be connected to keep each payout and each hot line separate since all but the 8 balls will be paying out on the 4th reel. Here's the flow example I've made to work with and I have a few very messy versions I'm working on. I haven't adjusted the wiper divisions on the 2nd picture but they are shown corrected on the large flow picture. they should be 3 in the upper set 2 in the middle and 4 on the lowest set of wiper fingers.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 09, 2013, 04:46:59 PM
that was actually the wrong image I meant to post this one,I have so many variations that i have been saving.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 09, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
here's 1 I started but stopped till i find out more.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: mark the spark on November 09, 2013, 05:31:16 PM
may I ask will the machine just pay from the left or will it be left to right right to left


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 09, 2013, 10:59:59 PM
We need to know exactly what your payout structure is, left to right, right to left, and what each and every pay pays out.  A pic of the payout card or payglass would be good.  Does machine pay for Or, Or, Bar?  
This is probably going to be a lot more complicated than you had imagined....
I'm guessing 3 oranges pays 10, but 4 oranges pays 20.  4 bells probably pays 20 also, yes?
That requires a bars match relay, and I presume there is one perhaps mounted near or on your 4th reel...?
The machine did not work at all originally as far as payouts???
Is it a standard set of reel strips, or does it look modified?

And also, is this a single line machine, or 3 line?


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 10, 2013, 05:05:22 AM
Here's the payout in the picture.
What I've done is basically went through the machine and fixed numerous bad connections broken wires disconnected wires, cleaned off the white oxidation on the beau plug pins and sockets, readjusted every switch to get the contacts to open and close in sync. Then I was able to accept a coin for play, adjusted the pawl switch to get the arm to unlock then I could actually play it!   :244- Once I played it I was getting a payout every pull, 5 coins or so, I disconnected that payout wire and then I started to look to see how things were supposed to be wired up since I had done everything by using common sense and a few hours of looking at how it worked and took a pile of pictures to make sure when I started to rearrange any wires I would have some reference as to how they were originally. I then noticed that the payouts were off and looked at the reels positions and the wipers positions to see if the reels were mounted on the hubs correctly, I also noticed that the reel contact boards were really poorly soldered and looked more closely at them to find that there was some very obvious changes made to the payouts, Jumper wires that went in circles and very poor solder joints. Wires not fully making connections etc.. I then removed most of the wires that were not making any sense as to why they were there.
   When I tried the payouts I was still off and looked into the reels being on the correct shaft mounting places reel 1 on the reel 1 position. etc.. I have no 8 ball on the 4th reel so I could start there.   It was correct in position but it was not lining up with the wiper pins. So I figured out were it needed to be and removed the 4 small bolts and rotated it 90 degrees until the 7 was in the deepest slot. Did the same for the rest and found them to be ok. The rel tape is only slightly off from the center line so I left it alone. I also rebalanced the reels right away while I was there. They were all heavy on one side and filed off a burr that was nicking the arm that stops the reels.
  Now it has stopped paying out every spin and I've connected every wire Available back to the hopper payout but I'm short 2 wires the 18 payout for the 3 bells and the 200 payout and I think the 100 is wrong.
It will now payout on certain amounts correctly (I've been writing them down as I check it). But has some irregularities in the 14 and the 20 payouts. Also will not pay out on any large pots but will spit out way too many on what should be much smaller payouts like 20 will payout the entire hopper (I only have 40 quarters in it and even if I catch them and put them back in I think it times out before it stops as it should).
 I'll count like 55 before it shuts off, but I have some time while it is being refilled so I can't be certain exactly what it's paying yet. I'm going to get more quarters in just a few minutes to complete my tests.
 I have some payouts that are ok on some symbols but wrong on others that should be the same like the 20 does not pay correctly on anything but does pay 20 on wrong combinations, as long as there is a cherry in the 1st reel ad then the 2nd may have Orange and the 3 & 4 will have cherries. But not 4 cherries that will only pay 10. I have a log of the symbols showing in each reel for each payout also including the symbol above and below each one on the line  so I have 3 symbols for each reel when it pays to see whats closest to the pay line when it happens. I think its all in the wires and has nothing to do with the reel tape, they all match up with the slot depth on each reel, I checked every one.

So that's where I'm at right now, at this point I definitely need some type of reference to get me started. I've seen all the free information available and nothing pertains exactly to my model. I realize the concept is the same but mine is very different in how the payouts are structured. Actually should be much simpler than any multiplier or extra line payouts, that's why I started to figure it out for myself. I just got started without looking to see were my wipers have divisions, now I have that recorded as well. I tried to contact the previous owner but he's not selling anything right now and I don't think he'll be checking his messages till he does. I have his phone number but I hate to bother him for this info knowing that he probably has no answers, more than likely this is why he sold it, he has a couple more maybe 4 or 5 sitting in his garage when I picked up this one, they looked to be all in 1 piece but I have no idea what he does with them other than sell them. I saw no signs of any being repaired there. Just stored. Here's another picture of the wiring job.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: mark the spark on November 10, 2013, 07:51:39 AM
had a look im sure this machine only pays from the left the jackpot was attendant paid so that leaves you with 9 payouts
2,5,10,14,18 and 20 and then on the large payouts 100 200 and 600 you can look at your payout card on the hopper to see what matches
the 8 ball is not present on the last reel is correct
start from there most of the pinouts to the hopper are normally standard across the models start with the 2 pay first


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 11, 2013, 06:19:28 AM
I'm thinking that the 18 payout comes out of the beau plug on the bottom and either goes to a switch or a solenoid lead then over to the payout board, because I don't have that wire available to me at the pay out board, It would have been in the wire loom if it was coming directly from the same place as the others. Since it's not in that loom with almost every other payout wire I tend to think it's one of those few that run a single short cut path directly to the payout boards connection running underneath the board.
  I started to check which wires are making contact on the next boards wires to see where the signal is stopping or getting off track. That coupled with the information I have written down on what is paying out compared to what should be paying out. Of course I went through each posted pay out to see what happened and also the random strange payouts I got while I pulled the handle. So far I have recorded these
1-cherry=2 coins
2 cherries=5 coins
3 cherries=2  coins
2 cherries + 1 orange + 1 cherry=20 coins
4 cherries=5 coins
3 CHERRIES + Orange=20 coins
3 cherries + plum=5 coins
3 Cherries + Bell= 5 Coins
3 Cherries + Bar=5 Coins
3  Cherries + 7=5 coins
3 oranges=10 coins
4 oranges=10 coins
3 plums=14 coins
4 plums= 14 coins
3 bells=41 OR SO COINS
4 bells=52 COINS
3 8-Bals= no pay
3 bars=no pay
4 bars= no pay
3 7's =no pay
4 7's = no pay
then i have a list of combinations that will pay out various amounts but they are virtually unrelated to each other.

I'll just use C for Cherry, O for Orange, P for Plum, B for Bells, 8 for 8 Ball, Bar for Bar, 7 for 7
this side will show the combination and over here I'll show the payout with a number
   combo                   Payout
P C O BAR   =   2
C O O C      =   2
C C 7 C      =    2
8 C O BAR  =   2 BUT (8C8O, 8COO, 8CCO, 87OC ALL NO PAY)

B C O O  =  10
BAR C O C  =  2
C C 8 O   =  20
C B C O  =  20
O C O O  = 10
C C B O  =  20
B C O B  =  2
C B 8 O  =  20
C P O O  =  20
C C P O  = 20

It looks like the pattern shows a problem with the 3rd and 4th reels orange wires if you notice that all of these unusual pay outs involve the oranges in some fashion. The next is the Bell on reel 1 and reel 4. and the least problematic are the 8 Balls on reel 1 and 3, the bar on reel 1 may just have a jumper going over too far on the Bar.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 11, 2013, 06:46:08 AM
I examined the pins a little bit closer today and moved a few wires that were not letting the signal flow through to the next board and It seems to be the step in the right direction to getting the 4th board to have a payout of the correct amount on the lower fruits but still missing something to energize the payouts. I've started to document the wires on those pictures I posted with the reel pin positions in colored dots per single reels. This way I can put them into my computer and do an overlay with them and have more overlays of the wipers blades with divisions in the proper places and can use the paint program to show witch pins are allowing the signal through to the next layers. If I use a layer that shows similar colored areas as a multiplier of the colors and the non matching will be blocked by the wiper blades not letting them pass through to the next layer. It should work pretty good if I can manipulate the wiper contacts over each layer to show which are picked up and which are not. Then view each layer as I peal them away to see the pins that are no letting the flow to the next reel. I may have to adjust the incoming wires dot colors to represent which symbol they are actually starting from as they transfer to the next boards pins. That will not be a big deal. The problem is searching in between the boards with a shop light and a magnifying glass while trying to remember witch colored wire it was and which color it is supposed to be and to find the pin it is going to now. Just too many wire colors and board changes to be able to keep it all straight in my head. The diagrams of the reel reader pins will be of the greatest help in this case. I'm going to remove the boards again and start recording the data in a few minutes. I should have them completed by this morning.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: mark the spark on November 11, 2013, 08:09:01 PM
a simple tip I picked up from here to check payouts was to clip down on the 50v on the reel mech beau plug and using a continuity tester u should be able to pick up the payout pins and thus continuity across the reel cards these are normally wired right to left if you had say 4 plums you should be able to clip to the 50v and pick up the payout pin on the reel mech thus proving continuity you could then move the plum off the 4th reel and pick up the payout pin for 3 plums by the same method (im sure this is right but stand to be corrected)
looking at what payouts you have, I would be inclined to start with the hopper make sure its correctly set up see why you 100 pays and above aren`t working trace the wiring backwards to the reel mech and perhaps post some photos of your hopper

looking at the cherry payouts its not seeing the cherry on the 3 and 4 reel has someone mixed up the oranges and cherrys on the 3 and 4 reels being as 3 cherrys and an orange pays 20 just a thought


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 12, 2013, 02:36:32 PM
Thanks for the advise, what i've been doing is merely making sure that each wire has another wire that will make the signal route from 4th reel to 1st reel. Regardless if the pin association is correct or not. Then I can figure out where the flow is disrupted and I will then know where to get started on where to go from there. Once I get the cherries figured out the rest should be super easy. I was wondering if the payouts have any resistors in line from the boards to the payout board? This would make figuring out the payouts much easier than having the reels before each payout controlling the payouts for each wire. What I'm saying is there a resistor that would be on the 2 coin payout that would cause the hot lead to not travel to the 2 coin payout if the next reel was a cherry also? The 3rd & 4th reel would not have resistor but the  2nd reel pay out wire would have a bit lower resistance (47 ohm) than the 1st reel (maybe a 67 ohm). This would keep the signal from energizing the 1st and 2nd reels pay outs at the same time by only having 1 single line of switches used for each payout circuit. Or would this hinder the payout actuator or the hopper assembly from working properly? Because no matter how I configure my wire diagrams I always will run into the signals being shared by 2 separate payouts on every symbol but the 8 balls. For instance if I have 3 plums which pay 14 then that will be energized but then the 4th reel stops at plums now the 20 is also energized if there is only 1 line of path for that signal. there has to be a cut if the 4th reel lands on the plums or there needs to be a resistor to divert the signals from flowing to the 14 coin and the 20 at the same time. The same holds true all throughout the cherry signals flow. I've tried to make up a few simple routes to figure out how to stop the lesser payouts from energizing also. I always end up having to use the next reels other closed switches to send the signals back to the previous payout reels switches to make each payout separate from the next lowest.

This how I figured it has to be without resistors.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 12, 2013, 05:46:01 PM
I would guess that the 20 coin pay (which is for multiple types of symbols...) is wired as a secondary and separate part of the reel boards.  In other words, it is probably a couple of rows of buttons below the top cut of the wiper assemblys.  This secondary cut will determine when the 20 coin pay segment is lit (powered), and may be run through a relay which when activated will complete the 20 coin pay to be hot.
To rephrase: a 3 orange 10 coin pay is going to be handled by a different part of the reel boards than is a 4 orange 20 coin pay.  The 20 coin pay will only be energized when all 4 reels have an orange on it.

You have spent many hours on this so far it seems.
Let me ask a question:
Have you checked for absolute certainty that your reel strips are correct, and that they match the cuts for each and every symbol on all 4 reels?
If not I urge you to check the position of EVERY symbol, to be sure that they are all consistent. In other words if on reel # 3, an orange cut is in position #6 let's say, then every other orange on that reel should and must also index on position #6.
If you can tell me that you have for certain taken the time and checked each symbol's position, then I will sleep better at night.  (sure glad I'm not doing this project...)
No, the bally doesn't use resistors in determining pays, it's all in the cuts, and wipers isolation.

Oh, I see by looking at a photo above, your machine does NOT pay from right to left.  This is probably a good thing, and should simplify the wiring a little bit.  Time to ponder this..........
If you have time, for giggles post us a listing of your reel strips..., eg.
Reel 1      Reel 2      Reel 3     Reel 4
or             pl             pl           bar
ch             or            or          be
etc......


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 15, 2013, 07:26:27 AM
As I have stated, I started this entire process with checking the reel positions on the axle, making certain that reel 1 was reel 1 and also mounted on the hub correctly so it will correspond with each slot when it stops. I made sure that each wiper was landing on the correct pins that correspond with the wires that are already there (to some extent) and all were in the same row for each symbol showing on the line. I had to move reel 4 180 degrees on the hub to make it match up correctly all tape was mounted on the other 3 reels correctly. I also did some balancing to the reels while I was there, filed off a bad spot that was catching on some spins, bent the reels back to a more true spinning action and made them as round as possible, the #4 still has a wobble left and right that will rub very slightly some times. I attribute that to all of the work that's being done and it is the most susceptible to getting bumped and pushed around. I can easily get it back to straight.
  The machine does pay left to right, as the symbols show in the payouts, that's exactly as they must lie on the pay line, no wild symbols, 1 cherry, a bar and 2 cherries only should pay 2, 2 cherries, a bar and 1 more cherry will pay 5, 3 cherries and any other symbol but cherries will pay 10, of course 4 cherries, 4 plums, 4 oranges will all pay 20 (or should)!

There are no relays that make payouts other than the the payout relay that advances the payout boards wiper assembly and the coin hopper. It's all mechanical, wired directly from the reel wipers down to the payout board. That's why I was saying it would be tremendously easier to wire if it used resistors in line with the payouts. A relay for each payout would simplify the wiring also, it would take all the wires that need to be associated with controlling each payout and could have jumpers on the relays that could route the payouts without worrying about a constantly connected circuit that will energize wires back through the wipers if not correctly positioned to use the separated switching pins of the reel wipers.

 If you look at how I figured the wire and pin usage to have the next reels board control the previous boards payouts on a separate switching area of the wipers. It seemed to work out perfectly if I place a jumper wire on board #4's mid and lower wiper switching areas making a 5 row switch area that will control the #3's pay outs on every symbol. On the 4th board it is not needed to have any other switching to be done if the other 3 boards are all in line on each symbol except for the 8Ball. this will be handled by the upper row of 2 pins being closed to complete the 4th symbols payouts since there is no need to carry the signal any further it will just connect to the pay out that corresponds.

The way I have it figured is that the 1st reel will carry an energized signal on through the boards until the reel above it has not landed on that matching symbol on the previous boards, of course it only needs to control the cherries payouts on the 1st 2 reels, the rest will just have a cut in the flow of the signal when the 3rd reel does not match the other 2. You'll notice that the signal will only pass through if every other reel has not closed the contacts on the previous boards lower set of switches for that matching the 1st reels symbols.

  I'll draw up a super simplified version just showing the flow through the cherries first 3 reels, once i include the 4th reels board it gets really cluttered with unnecessary jumper wires to make it work but you'll get the idea from the simplified drawing. I also have plotted the pins to wires, using numbered colored wires as shown by bally, even if it has no meaning in this case.

  I still need to do a wire to beau plug plotting to see which wires are coming from each pin that has a pay out and where it ends up on the payout board.  I have done some board to board wire routing but it's a pain to try and keep each pin figured in my head as I check them making more than a few mistakes along the way, plus coupled with the fact that there may be some wires that are being shared incorrectly will cause the signal to route back through the wires and cause false signal routes. I had to place paper between the wipers and the boards to check the wires routes but then again I still need to have the previous wipers making contact or I can't follow the signal. I'm thinking it will be easier for me to simply remove the string that acts as the wire loom and just trace each wire by sight and draw out a point to point diagram using each wires number code to show how they are in line from the reel to reel to the payout. This may not actually be of any use or it may make it more obvious where it goes wrong. I know it's going to take me quite a long time and may not yield any useful info. I'll post the wire to pin plotting I have done and you'll notice that the wires and pins used now are drastically different than I have figured the layout to accomplish the task, leaving me to think that whoever rewired this either knows something I don't or they are so far off it's unimaginable. I'm sure there is a way to simplify my layout by using the wires that route from other boards to interrupt the signals but much harder to follow than what I have laid out.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 15, 2013, 07:31:57 PM
Wow, I have a headache.
So, what your diagram shows is that you have 7 different depth of cuts?
And, the cuts are exactly the same for all 4 of the reels?
Is there a jackpot reset keyswitch on the machine, and or any kind of jackpot lockup coil/relay anywhere?
You have a large project going on there, and I suspect that you do have all of the wires between the reel boards already there.  Use your VOM on ohms to more easily track them, that way you won't have to tear apart the loom.  Same with checking wires between plugs, you can always compare the back of the Male plug end, so you don't have to tear apart the female side to see where your wires are.
Also, you have a very large area on each reel board where your wires come and go.  Make sure you build a chart of where and what color these wires are and where they go for easy later reference.  e.g. (jumper for orange from reel 3 to reel 2).
Do you have pics of the original wiring of the boards.?
Did this machine ever pay anything correctly when you first got it?
I can't imagine anyone letting it go out for sale being so messed up....

You might also want to chart out your beau plugs, which will help you trace connnections between the reels and the hopper.
Also more pics of inside of machine could be helpful.
Whew...


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 17, 2013, 12:17:01 AM
So, here's how I'd wire your cherry pays --
Run a grey wire to the top button on your cherry cut on the 1st reel.
Below that run the red/yellow wire which goes to the 2 pay on your hopper payboard. (should already be on you 1st reel board.
One button below that, run a jumper to the 2nd reel board cherry cut.
Below that button, run the red/white wire (5 coin pay) to your hopper payboard. (should already be there.)
Below that button, run a jumper to the 3rd reel.
etc.
That's my take on your cherry pays....
How's it going???


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 18, 2013, 02:01:45 AM
Here's some more pix


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 18, 2013, 02:03:58 AM
I've recorded where each wire is connected to each reel boars now and The only problem I had while using the meter is due to the jumpers that have been placed on the boards running in circles at times, I had to isolate the pins by placing a piece of paper behind the wipers and then I couldn't do any tracing with the paper in place. Without it several wires will be connected and it made impossible to find the correct wires connection. I had to do a visual on this to get started. I have many photos of the boards also. That's the first thing I did.

  Then I removed some of the obviously incorrect jumpers that either were connected to a part of the board which had no possible way for it to make contact via a switched part of the wiper, or it was running in a circle and was just an extra wire in the way.
   
  When I first got it it did not pay out correctly at all, it was shooting out 10 or 20 coins every pull, (once I got it to accept coins and release the handle), I was able to get that constant payout resolved by removing some of the jumpers and it was tjhen paying out only 20 every time not 10 or 20. I disconnected the 20 wire on the hopper and was able to get the 20 payout resolved also. then the 2 coin pay was also fixed, it would only pay if it landed on a cherry in the left or 1st reel! :244-
 
  Next I started to record what was paying and what wasn't. That was what I posted previously to help to find the problem wires or at least get an idea of what was paying correctly or close to correctly and what may show a pattern of incorrect payments to give a point to focus on, That turned up that the 3rd reel was where most of the problems were located. The 3rd reel is the only reel that has a payout on every symbol, so of course that will be the most likely to be messed up.

  The only question I have about how the payout circuit works,  why won't the 2 and the 5 coin payouts be energized if the circuit carries the signal from the 2 coin payout  on reel 1 which will be hot then out that reel to the 2nd reel which will have the 5 coin wire energized? If they are wired in series they both are hot. Unless they have a separate switching mechanism that is controlling each individual payout. Or as I stated earlier if they had a resistor on the circuits that would be less than the previous lead out to the payout board, it would then bypass that payout and continue on to the next reels payout unless the circuit is not made made to the next boards payout then it will route out the 1st boards payout or the 2nd boards if the 3rd has not completed the circuit to the payout on that board. Without a resistor I only see the payouts being controlled by independent switching areas on the wiper plates contacting separate areas on the the boards. That would stop the circuit and send the signal back to the board before it since the board that doesn't line up with the ones before it will be the controlling factor that has to set the last place the signal has traveled and make a separate connection to that payout. In essence there will be 2 signals sent out and 1 will be traveling to reach the 4th reel and independently there will be a signal that will represent the interruption of the signal. Since the signal stops at lets say reel 3 then there has been boards 1, 2 and 3 in line, if the signal came from reel 1 and has only 1 wire traveling in and out of each reel then the payout on reel 1 is hot and the payout on reel 2 is also hot and the 3rd reel is also hot since the wire is in series. There is no breaking of the circuit as it travels through the reels with a single wire and no resistors to route the current to the payout board.

  The other thing is when there are 3 symbols all paying out the same amounts as the 20 coins having 3 paths of the 4th board energized, are these all simply wired together in parallel to that payout or are they somehow kept separate by traveling trough switches down at the payout boards cluster of switches and then combined? :103-

Here's a few shots of the boards before I trimmed away some of the ridiculous rewire job. Actually these might be after I did some of the trimming, I'll have to check the dates to be certain.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 18, 2013, 02:51:55 AM
OK, the 2nd reel cherry gets its 50V to go 'hot'  ONLY when the 1st reel lands on a cherry.  If the 1st reel lands in ANY other position, then your signal/power will not get to the 2nd reel cherry, and therefor the 5 coin pay segment on the hopper will not light up.
Of course, if that does happen, then the 5 coin pay will be hot, and the 2 coin pay, but we don't care if the 2 is hot, because it still has 3 more coins to pay out.
Give me a little bit of time to read and digest the rest of your post. Good job so far, good logical thinking.  Are you handling all this ok?
And remember, you do have cuts in your wiper assemblies themselves, to separate out circuits.

Also, look at your picture 2958.  At upper right you see two 13 wires together.  One of them goes to 2 coin pay on hopper board.  The other one goes to reel #2, cherry position only, and you will find that coming away from that position on the other portion of the wiper index point, a 15 wire. That's your 5 coin pay.  This is basically the same way I suggested to you earlier, and thank you for the pic because it let me remember better how they were wired.  Yes, the two pay is hot, but will not carry power to 2nd reel unless there is a cherry index on 1st reel. The 1st reel is where the 90 wire extension feeds in 50V ONLY for cherry pays.  Good picture, thanks.

B will be hot, if and only if A is hot.  'A' can be hot without B being hot.
C will be hot, if, and only if B is hot, and B can be hot if and only if A also is hot.
D will be hot if and only if A,B, and C are all also hot.

Oh, also to remember, it doesn't matter if lower pays are hot, because in the end the highest pay is the one to be paid.  In other words, for a 20 coin payout for 4 oranges, at the same time the 20 is hot, the 10 coin pay (3 oranges) is also hot.  But we don't care, because the 10 coins is part of the 20 coins for 4 oranges.  Helpful or not?


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 18, 2013, 02:57:27 AM
Also, note that the cherry pays are the only ones to originate from the 1st reel.  All other pays use the 4th or 3rd reels and are 'read' opposite of the way cherries are.  Cherries read from L to R.  Other pays read from R to L.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 18, 2013, 06:39:11 AM
I was just studying the 3 reel layout and philosophy of how the current flows, although it's very much unlike mine I think I have it figured out! Each payout on the 3 & 4 reel, (other than the 8 ball on the 4th reel and possibly not the exact same configuration for cherries either),  will have its own hot 50v (90) Gray wire feeding it, then the signal will look for the path back to the 1st reel, If the 50v signal on the 4th reel is hot then it will travel to the 3rd reel but will be on a separate switching area of the 3rd reels matching symbols. If the 3rd reel matches then the signal is completed and travels to the 2nd reels board on it's own switching area then if 1st reel matches the signal will again pass through its own switching area of the wipers to the payout wire connected to the 4 matching symbols payout on the payout board.

If the 4th reel isn't matching the first 3 matches then the 50v signal that is located opposite 3rd reels payout wire circuit will be hot and travel to the 2nd board on a separate set of wires than those used by the 4th reels payout circuit but in line with that symbols set of pins, then onto the 1st reels payout wires connected to that 3 matching symbols payout on the payout board.
 
so each payout will be on the first reel board  & will have 2 separate wires for the Bars, Bells, Plums & Oranges & 2 separate circuits originating from the 4th reel and 3Rd reels (1 each), the 8balls will have just 1, the cherries will have a double wire on each board for they're own payout as the signal moves towards the higher payouts?
or
Am I seeing it slightly off?


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on November 18, 2013, 03:02:54 PM
1 more thing, my bell has been removed, also I don't have the topper for in, it looks like it's just a slot to illuminate a single piece of glass with a light running under the bottom adage. Is there an option to use the bell circuit to power a light that would flash or something from the 6 volt signal? Also I have keys for it but it doesn't have the switch for the call attendant reset. Nor does it have the door locking assembly, I can make that part pretty easily, I have done that type of work all my life, I just don't currently have a shop that I can use since I'm not working right now. Looks simple enough to make in my garage.

 I will need to have a separate 6 volt feed for the Super Jackpot & $125 payouts running on the 7's circuit Can that voltage be changed to run another device as I stated, or is it better to have it run to a relay that will switch another transformer set to the voltage needed to power whatever device I choose to show the Jack pot hit. That is if I can't find a 6 volt device that will work.

 I won't need a 50v feed running to the 7's at all?

Does the carry over wire come from the reel boards or is it controlled by the switches on the hopper.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on November 19, 2013, 12:08:43 AM
Zinda, I think you pretty much got the theory.
You probably could use the bell circuit to power a light.  Sounds doable.
You should find a solid 20 wire somewhere on the reel boards that is your 6V. It should be wired at the bottom most part of your boards, and you can tell by the cuts in the wipers.  You should be able to run any 6V device from it as long as it doesn't exceed the fuses rating.  You can always put in a slightly higher amp fuse, too.

The Carry Over I believe is from the payout relay (93 wire??), and it is hot whenever there is a payout.  It doesn't matter if it is only a cherry 2 coin pay out, the CO is always hot on pays.  It is just that the wiper fingers never make it up that far on low pays.  I wrote something about the CO circuit one time, it might be on OldReno's trouble shooting tips.
Sounds like you got a good grasp of the machine...!


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on December 15, 2013, 07:12:58 AM
OK :137- I have it all working except for I cannot really test the bell circuit other than seeing if some voltage will show a signal, My understanding is that when the $125 mini jackpot and the Super Jackpot are hit the bell rings and the handle should also be locked? or does the machine shut down? Also there needs to be an exterior reset switch that is key operated for this or is it an internal resetting?

 Well to report back and show how I was able to get it working now was after a few very long nights struggling with that goofy wire color scheme that they seem to live by. After finding myself going in circles and tried to help out the wire indexing with some magic markers and found that the only way to get this going on the correct track was to strip out all of the original wiring that runs between the reel wiper boards! Then I gathered up some Red, Orange, Yellow, Purple, Blue, White & Black Wires to use for the jumper wiring from board to board. Of course using the colors that matched the symbols. Also the out bound and inbound can have lines drawn on them to distinguish the out and return for certain lines. Once I did this I was able to finally see exactly what was going on without always referring back to a chart or drawings with numbers and colors that didn't have any meaning as to what they were doing or where they went. Also had to run a few extra wires between boards and beau plugs all the way to the pay out board also. A few wires had been changed and the colors were not the same going into the beau plugs as they were coming out so I changed those as well. These are what was really making the fix so impossibly hard to follow . Here's the basic idea of how the wires run for a single coin single line 4 reel machine will go.

 The concept is power is applied on reel 3 then follows the wires to board 1 where most of the payouts will be connected to the payout board. Some are shared right there while others will have a further path around and back to complete that coin payout. What happens after the wires complete their path back to board 1 is they will then take another wire from #1 up to #4 Board where they will see the last connection to make a 4 symbol match, then they will pay out there or return back to board 1 to make the payout. But this is not true for the Cherries! The cherries start with power at reel 1 and travels up to the #4 reel with payouts at each point that there is a match. ending up with a 20 coin payout on #4 shared with Orange and Plums also. The other largely shared payout will occur with the 100 coin payout which will again have to have extra wires running from #4 to #1 and also having different numbered matches that share it. 3 Bars, 3 8-balls & 4 Bells all will have connections to the 100 Coin wire. It looks like this in some way.

 I have to make a correction to the drawing I have here I noticed that I had the 10 coin payout coming directly to the orange loop from the 1st reel to the 4th reel and what i had to do to keep this from paying out 20 in the case of the 4th reel landing on a cherry, was to wire the 10 coin payout wire down onto one of the lower sets of wiper switch areas then back up to the actual payout. So it would have the orange looping wire coming from the 1st reel and going to the 4th reel for the completion of the 4 oranges go to the 4th reel and then another separate jumper coming from that same connection on the 4th reel and going to the 3rd reels cherries, lower wiper switching area. You have to make sure which pins are switched together before doing anything further. Once you have located a place that has 2 pins that are not connected to any other pins by wiper switches. that will be the spot to have the 10 coin orange jumper wire from the 1st & 4th reels. Then have the cherry jumper wire that comes up from the 2nd reel meet up with that orange wire on top part where the wires all bind then jumper down to the pins. Then have a small jumper wire run up from that separated set of pins to the set of pins that are on the other area above those. The payout wire for the 10 coin from the lower switching area will then only travel up to the cherry 10 coin payout if that 3rd reel lands on the cherry, thus making it impossible for that wire to be hot from the Oranges in the first place. This will isolate that circuit from traveling through the cherries 4th reel wiring in case it lands on it with 3 oranges showing.  The only way it can get through to the next reel is if the cherries are on the 3rd reel otherwise it will either stop there if there are not 2 cherries showing already. If it has 3 oranges it will skip around the cherries connection that travels to the 4th reel.

When I have time I'll re-post the wire diagram to show this minor alteration that I noticed within a few spins of the reels.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: OldReno on December 16, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
My goodness.  Excellent work.  You certainly are no slouch.
Thanks for putting this all up here for us to see, and for future folks too.

So, when you hit a jackpot, the machine still will work as normally, but with one important exception:
The coin lockout coil loses power on a JP.  When it loses power, the armature is pulled away from the coil, and no more coins are allowed through the coin acceptor.  They all fall back into the tray.
This is the secret of hand pays, you cannot coin the machine as a customer.
To re-energize the lockout coil, you must turn the JP reset key, which is a separate but parallel circuit to the lockout.
OR, you can open the door and push on the coin switch with your finger.  Often we would do that instead of hunting around on our key ring for the JP reset key.
Once the first coin is accepted, then the JP Lockup Relay#1 or #2 loses power, and things return to normal.
BTW, you did a heck of a job on the rewiring....!  Nice.


Title: Re: Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?
Post by: zinda on February 23, 2014, 08:52:31 AM
I would guess that the 20 coin pay (which is for multiple types of symbols...) is wired as a secondary and separate part of the reel boards.  In other words, it is probably a couple of rows of buttons below the top cut of the wiper assemblys.  This secondary cut will determine when the 20 coin pay segment is lit (powered), and may be run through a relay which when activated will complete the 20 coin pay to be hot.
To rephrase: a 3 orange 10 coin pay is going to be handled by a different part of the reel boards than is a 4 orange 20 coin pay.  The 20 coin pay will only be energized when all 4 reels have an orange on it.

You have spent many hours on this so far it seems.
Let me ask a question:
Have you checked for absolute certainty that your reel strips are correct, and that they match the cuts for each and every symbol on all 4 reels?
If not I urge you to check the position of EVERY symbol, to be sure that they are all consistent. In other words if on reel # 3, an orange cut is in position #6 let's say, then every other orange on that reel should and must also index on position #6.
If you can tell me that you have for certain taken the time and checked each symbol's position, then I will sleep better at night.  (sure glad I'm not doing this project...)
No, the bally doesn't use resistors in determining pays, it's all in the cuts, and wipers isolation.

Oh, I see by looking at a photo above, your machine does NOT pay from right to left.  This is probably a good thing, and should simplify the wiring a little bit.  Time to ponder this..........
If you have time, for giggles post us a listing of your reel strips..., eg.
Reel 1      Reel 2      Reel 3     Reel 4
or             pl             pl           bar
ch             or            or          be
etc......
You are exactly on point when you say this and I have now posted the corrected version of the wiring diagram to clarify the mistake I had made with the 10 Coin pay out. It will make the orange hot unless the 10 coin pay out is isolated on a lower switching area of the Cherries row of pins. The last picture I posted is the proper way to have the payouts wired. Thanks for being sharp and ointing this out. Sorry it's taken so long to get this posted but I've been busy with a few more Machines and will have the pictures posted in a new thread using the keyword Matador Slot Machine.