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Title: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jdkmunch on December 30, 2008, 05:21:21 PM Can someone explain to me why the slot manufacturers force slot techs to use chips to clear their memory? I just saw that the OLD Bally 5500 mains can clear with a jumper and the NEWER mains need a chip. It just seems crazy to me. I would have guessed that the new chips would be jumper enabled.
Just curious - Thanks :30- Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: knagl on December 30, 2008, 06:09:36 PM Probably to prevent any slot attendant who has a key from tinkering with the settings while the machine is on the casino floor. If only a very limited number of slot techs can clear / change configuration settings (payout percentages, progressive settings, etc.), it limits the number of people who can screw something up on the casino floor, while allowing attendants to have access to fill hoppers or printers, or clear simple bill jams.
Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: stayouttadabunker on December 30, 2008, 06:11:47 PM Casino security is the number one reason...
floor slot technicans were caught touching things in machines they weren't supposed to...like the jumpers for instance... Bet ya you'll never see an "OLD" Bally 5500 on a live casino floor ever again... ADD>>>sorry Knagl...I didnt notice you must of just added your reply Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: jdkmunch on December 30, 2008, 06:14:26 PM I see. So there may be only one set of chips in a casino and they have to go through some procedure to be taken on the floor. It just seems like a key or something would be a safer method than physically removing and plugging in chips.
Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: stayouttadabunker on December 30, 2008, 06:18:31 PM keys are easily copied....
eprom chips are not... plus it takes a lot longer to change eprom key chips than to turn a physical key. There's a member trying to make a mod that will switch games just by flipping dipswitches instead of changing eprom game chips. I'm sure there may be a mod in the not too distant future that will enable one to flip between set chips, and clear chips, game chips,etc. ...but no one has tried it yet. It would be a neat mod for home use...but not for casino security reasons as stated earlier. Funny thing though saying this on a parallel note as casinos are presently undergoing installation of server-based machines where the percentages are changed from the back room's main computer - on the fly. Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: jay on December 30, 2008, 06:23:02 PM The gaming regulators want more control and audit over how the machines are managed and it helps manage tampering.
With your example of the old Bally, I am sure it is not outside the realm of possible that someone could get a shim inside the machine, and short the jumper.... 3seconds and your done. Wranging in a set chip, removing the existing game chip, inserting the set chip in the right direction, playing with a bunch of options that may require the door open sensors to be open, then putting everything back the way it is supposed to be is going to be a bit tougher to do unnoticed. While I am not sure but I would think that the use of a key chip could actually allow it to send information back (SAS ?) to a central computer about what changes are being implemented providing a clear audit trail. Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: jdkmunch on December 30, 2008, 06:28:46 PM I wonder if all new slots in a casino are networked. The casino with a push of a button could change odds, reset machines etc.. At Mohegan Sun they post how much money was won for that day. So they must be collecting what the machines are paying out. I would like to see how much they collect too. ha ha
Title: Re: Chips Chips Chips Post by: stayouttadabunker on December 30, 2008, 06:31:42 PM All the percentages are posted publicly in Ct. as open records in the Ct. gaming division.
I think they only give you yearly records though...check the Ct. Division of Special Revenue? I inserted a webpage for you to look at down below>>> Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jay on December 30, 2008, 07:07:51 PM Most Casinos are networked. Again this is for security reasons.
They want to know how much is taken in, paid out. With the modern slots they know exactly what bills and in what order in each cash can. No one is slipping a 20 into their pockets. They are not able to change odds, denominations etc. This is managed at the machine level. The new server based gaming will offer all of these features and more. The machine is really just a terminal and the games are stored on the server. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jdkmunch on December 30, 2008, 07:14:37 PM Really cool stuff. I don't know if this is true - New York runs a casino in Yonkers raceway. I read that the slots that are there are not "true" slot machines like a IGT S-Plus or Bally 6000. Instead they are like scratch off lottery tickets. They will pay the top award a set number of times controlled by Albany. Who knows I have been there a couple of times and I am more interested in the "machines" themselves. The new bally and wms models are really cool.
I guess the chip days are numbered. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: dpalmi on December 30, 2008, 07:21:15 PM Hello all,
I also believe the reason for a physical chip change involves the whole Gaming Commission tape that you often see in machines. To remove a chip and replace it with a key chip, you must disturb the tape from the Gaming Commission in a machine and then the Gaming Commission is able to tell during it's next inspection that the machine has possibly been changed from it's last settings. There would be no way to monitor this as easily with a key. I don't believe a Casino is allowed to change any odds or key chip settings on any machine (depending on jurisdiction) without prior authorization from the Gaming Commission...I believe they also need authorization to preform game kit swaps...but I am really just talking out my ass here as I have never worked in a Casino...lol. Dan #2 Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: dpalmi on December 30, 2008, 07:23:17 PM Really cool stuff. I don't know if this is true - New York runs a casino in Yonkers raceway. I read that the slots that are there are not "true" slot machines like a IGT S-Plus or Bally 6000. Instead they are like scratch off lottery tickets. They will pay the top award a set number of times controlled by Albany. Who knows I have been there a couple of times and I am more interested in the "machines" themselves. The new bally and wms models are really cool. I guess the chip days are numbered. From my understanding you don't ever want to buy one of these machine because they are just terminals to some degree that won't work on their own if they can't talk to a central server.... Dan #2 Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: stayouttadabunker on December 30, 2008, 07:45:35 PM I wonder what's the going price for that server - loaded with software games? :47-
Betcha it can only be had by casino rental agreement with IGT... Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jay on December 30, 2008, 08:17:08 PM The machines that are like scratch off lottery tickets are called VLT's
Video Lottery Terminals. They are used in places like bars and restaurants here in Canada where slots are illegal. One of the features is the ability to slow the machine down so they become less addictive. The VLTs are regulated by the provincial lottery comission with a set maximum number of machines per establishment and a set number of machines geographically. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jay on December 30, 2008, 08:26:18 PM Server based gaming deserves a thread on its own.
The concept from a licensing perspective is that some themes cost more than others due to popularity and playability. The mix of what machine goes where for maximum attraction and play is a science on to itself. So imagine being able to place any machine anywhere at anytime. You would be able to change all the belly glass to say welcome to the Mary Kay Cosmetics Convention in hot pink and 10 seconds later change it to Consumer Electronics. Using RFID technology you could determine what slots I like to play and my favoriates would always be some place around me while newer themes that they want to push on me would be popping up as well. The patron could select whatever theme he wanted from a menu with whatever denomination. While this is all cool stuff the counter side to this is that when we go to a Vegas Casino we have come to expect an honest game. So the thought that the casino could change the odds mid play or mid session is a scary one. Imagine the stories. I was winning a bundle then the casino flipped a switch and I started to lose like crazy. Heck I think they have a switch like that when I am playing cards .... so its easy to jump to the electronic Orsen Wells - button in the sky conspircy theory. Truth or Fiction the casino needs to assure patrons that the games have a set payback and continue the illusion that they are "due" to win at any moment. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: uniman on December 30, 2008, 08:43:22 PM Can someone explain to me why the slot manufacturers force slot techs to use chips to clear their memory? I just saw that the OLD Bally 5500 mains can clear with a jumper and the NEWER mains need a chip. It just seems crazy to me. I would have guessed that the new chips would be jumper enabled. I believe clear chips are required because of an external memory chip located on the motherboard.Just curious - Thanks :30- Universal slot machines clear the RAM with a push button on the MPU. They are still in use in Vegas (Circus Circus) so they are legal. The push button is great for home use, but is a security problem at the casino's. All Universal Ultra Series slot machines I have come across had an added magnetic door switch installed on the MPU door and was connected to the casino's monitoring computer system. All MPU doors had locks too. The problem with the MPU push button RAM clear and lack of an external memory chip became apparent when Neveda Gaming Commission Tech Ron Harris gaffed the Universal slot machines with added programming. If there had been an external memory chip to check the program this would not have happened. Also, a slot tech could take, say, two MPU boards from two machines to the shop for repair and then accidentally reinstall them in the wrong machines. They would boot up fine and then when played would cause a lot of grief as the reel strips and paytables would not match the game on the wrong MPU! Again, an external chip would have shut down the wrong MPU. If your sick of "Clear" and "Set" chips, buy a Universal. :89- Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: cfh on December 30, 2008, 08:51:57 PM You can mod nearly any game to have a "built in" clear
chip. I've done it on Williams, but you can probably do it on IGT too (denom chip/game chip). It involves doubling up the EPROM (using an EPROM double the size), and toggling the last Address line. Burn the EPROM with the clear chip in one half, and the game program in the other half. Mount a small switch right on the EPROM itself to toggle between the two halves. This way when the EPROM is removed, the switch travels with the EPROM (so a game change is not a big deal). The disadvantage is the EPROM is now permanently altered. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jdkmunch on December 31, 2008, 01:51:37 AM So not only is a physical chip a check for the casino it is also a check for the gaming commission. That makes a lot of sense. I could see the casino looking for ways to speed up the clear process to save money. With the gaming commission overseeing everything it just seems right to know every machine that was changed.
I also think I may be looking from the chip thing from a home users perspective. It could very well be that a casino would very rarely use the clear chips. If they have 6000 slots they may only use them one time every couple of months. Where I may use them more often by switching the game kit etc... I Like the idea of a VLT thread. Does anyone know if I can confirm is NYS uses VLTs? Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: stayouttadabunker on December 31, 2008, 02:19:49 AM I think they have them at the Akwesane Mohawk Casino.
http://www.mohawkcasino.com/ http://www.racing.state.ny.us/charitable/ (http://www.racing.state.ny.us/charitable/) Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: Ron (r273) on December 31, 2008, 11:21:34 AM Server based gaming deserves a thread on its own. The concept from a licensing perspective is that some themes cost more than others due to popularity and playability. The mix of what machine goes where for maximum attraction and play is a science on to itself. So imagine being able to place any machine anywhere at anytime. You would be able to change all the belly glass to say welcome to the Mary Kay Cosmetics Convention in hot pink and 10 seconds later change it to Consumer Electronics. Using RFID technology you could determine what slots I like to play and my favoriates would always be some place around me while newer themes that they want to push on me would be popping up as well. The patron could select whatever theme he wanted from a menu with whatever denomination. While this is all cool stuff the counter side to this is that when we go to a Vegas Casino we have come to expect an honest game. So the thought that the casino could change the odds mid play or mid session is a scary one. Imagine the stories. I was winning a bundle then the casino flipped a switch and I started to lose like crazy. Heck I think they have a switch like that when I am playing cards .... so its easy to jump to the electronic Orsen Wells - button in the sky conspiracy theory. Truth or Fiction the casino needs to assure patrons that the games have a set payback and continue the illusion that they are "due" to win at any moment. Looks like these machine will eventually cut out home casinos since a server base might be hard to build. :8- Ron Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: stayouttadabunker on December 31, 2008, 12:38:49 PM I agree with you Ron, hard...but not impossible.
The thing is, if casinos go to terminals running off of computer servers, will IGT destroy every slot machine that we are now presently seeing in casinos, as a measure to stop the machines from reaching the home market? Or do they go down to the secondary markets - such as overseas? Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jdkmunch on December 31, 2008, 01:46:23 PM I don't think they would ever do that. For one there will always be casinos that won't be that high tech. You have to remember that gambling is more psychology than anything else. People have their favorite machine in their favorite location for one reason or another. If the machines just turn into the type you always play I think it wouldn't be as interesting to the gambler.
While this is all cool stuff the counter side to this is that when we go to a Vegas Casino we have come to expect an honest game. So the thought that the casino could change the odds mid play or mid session is a scary one. Imagine the stories. I was winning a bundle then the casino flipped a switch and I started to lose like crazy. Heck I think they have a switch like that when I am playing cards .... so its easy to jump to the electronic Orsen Wells - button in the sky conspircy theory. Truth or Fiction the casino needs to assure patrons that the games have a set payback and continue the illusion that they are "due" to win at any moment. Jay is right - there is a certain comfort knowing that the machine is hard wired with a chip that will pay out XX percentage and can't be changed. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: StatFreak on December 31, 2008, 11:25:48 PM I don't think they would ever do that. For one there will always be casinos that won't be that high tech. You have to remember that gambling is more psychology than anything else. People have their favorite machine in their favorite location for one reason or another. If the machines just turn into the type you always play I think it wouldn't be as interesting to the gambler. While this is all cool stuff the counter side to this is that when we go to a Vegas Casino we have come to expect an honest game. So the thought that the casino could change the odds mid play or mid session is a scary one. Imagine the stories. I was winning a bundle then the casino flipped a switch and I started to lose like crazy. Heck I think they have a switch like that when I am playing cards .... so its easy to jump to the electronic Orsen Wells - button in the sky conspircy theory. Truth or Fiction the casino needs to assure patrons that the games have a set payback and continue the illusion that they are "due" to win at any moment. Jay is right - there is a certain comfort knowing that the machine is hard wired with a chip that will pay out XX percentage and can't be changed. I agree, and hope the general public does too. (But never underestimate the stupidity of the American public. 6-5 blackjack comes to mind.. :37- :81-) What I find bizarre about this server based twist is that the public has perpetuated the myth that the casinos could just turn a dial and change the slot odds at will for decades, and now the myth might become reality. I'm disappointed that Nevada gaming law doesn't preclude the casinos from making selective changes to payouts based on a gambler's status as a customer or their immediate past play outcome, but I'm hopeful that good old competitive capitalism and customer pressure will keep the casinos from getting out of control. jdkmunch I agree with you as well. The last thing I want to see when I walk into a casino is rows and rows of nearly identical terminals that always seem to change to either games that I've played in the past or a small selection of new games the casino wants to push when I walk by. The variety of the machines on the floor and their placement is part of the casino experience. It occurs to me that the WAP machines would probably remain separate units and would continue to be very identifiable. After all, the sponsor of the WAP (IGT, et al.) wouldn't be too happy if a patron could walk up to one of their WAP machines and cut them out of their part of the take by selecting a local server game that they didn't get a piece of. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: jay on January 01, 2009, 05:15:57 AM As it stands there are several restricted themes..... WOF comes to mind.
Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: brichter on January 01, 2009, 06:54:28 AM As it stands there are several restricted themes..... WOF comes to mind. It is my dream to own a WOF one day. My daughter says I'm especially addicted to WOF because it's the one I play without fail everywhere we go! Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: Brianzz on January 01, 2009, 07:57:30 AM I just played in a WOF tournament... talk about a time killer on those spins... and you get to spin every other pull
Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: StatFreak on January 01, 2009, 09:08:17 PM I just played in a WOF tournament... talk about a time killer on those spins... and you get to spin every other pull But if everyone in the tournament has the same handicap it should come out even. Did you get a lot of 1000 coin wins on the wheel spins? Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: Brianzz on January 02, 2009, 02:20:03 AM nope, typically 20 or 40 coin wins on the spins, every once in awhile it'd land on 250 or 500 but never 1000
Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: StatFreak on January 02, 2009, 09:01:47 AM nope, typically 20 or 40 coin wins on the spins, every once in awhile it'd land on 250 or 500 but never 1000 Sounds like the tourney setting didn't affect the odds on the wheel. :60- Shame on them. Boo. :37- Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: Brianzz on January 02, 2009, 09:51:00 AM I think the tourney setting just increased the number of times you get the wheel bonus, which is next to never during real play and may have had little influence on the reel combinations. The best reel spin I had was 5X any 7's and not one time did the WOF symbol stop, 3 of which pays 10,000, during my 5 minute session. I think there's possibly an option for the tournament on number of revolutions the wheel spins before it lands on it's predetermined win amount, which should be set to the lowest number, optimally set to 0 revolutions and spin to the win amount.
I think I'd be more interested in the video tournament version of WOF, just based on the fact that there's more ways to win as opposed to just the 1 payline with boring spin bonus. Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: dpalmi on January 02, 2009, 01:03:12 PM Hello all!
My wife and I both LOVE any kind of WOF even though I know they have a low %. We just love spinning that damn wheel! Last time we were in Vegas - early August, the wife and I decided to sit down at one of those really big WOF's where multiple people sit in a circle (see pic below - just for reference - not the machine we played) while we were waiting for someone. It was downtown on Freemont right on the corner of a casino (don't remember the name). This was just a penny WOF and we were both playing seperate machines at 1x per line. Within 6 or 7 minutes of playing, I got to spin the wheel and hit 10,000!!! And then within 2-3 minutes, the wife got to spin the wheel and also hit 10,000. Sadly, we only had the 1x bonus - so both hits were $100 each for a total of $200. Boy was it exciting and everyone around us were freaking out. Of course, when we saw the 10,000 - we thought we had hit it really big! Then we realized it was 10,000 x a penny...lol. Still, we both cashed out right away and were very happy :) Dan #2 Title: Re: Key-Chips Key-Chips Key-Chips Post by: Brianzz on January 02, 2009, 07:08:21 PM Players lost interest pretty quickly in that monster super spin WOF and I've noticed it disappearing from casino floors pretty quickly. I think the 40 lines + 40 side bet for the bonus turns alot of penny player off.
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