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Video of the week 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/0v8USoRVbqo&hl=en&fs=1 (http://www.youtube.com/v/0v8USoRVbqo&hl=en&fs=1)

"when in fact, slot machines are NOT random"

oh, boy....where does he get his facts ????


"slot machines only pay out at certain intervals or levels" :72- :72- :97- :97- :97- :97- :97-

Thanks Joey for the viedo.  The fella has some very good points and for the most part I would have to agree with the guy.  Just my 2 cents anyway.   :79-  Thanks B.

If he's going to talk about how to win at slots, firstly I'd suggest not using a $100 flea market special slot machine. Use a real one.

  I think that the only one who won anything in that video was the guy who sold him that pile of junk.  :72- :72- :72- :72-

"There is no skill, randomness or luck for that matter in slots" - Its hard to believe they are real

He makes a fair point about it not mattering when you press the skill stop button though. If a pachislo RANDOMLY picks to make a payout at the point you press the lever, then no matter when you press those buttons it will give you the RANDOM win, in the same way that you can touch the screen on a GameKing slot to stop all the reels early or in a different order ahead of when the machine would have displayed the outcome.

But it is RANDOM and this is why a PROFESSIONAL gambler will stay away from the machines. I think I can see why he was only professional for 6 years and is now making youtube videos to pass on his knowledge, at least he is not charging for it.

Well, to be fair, this guy is basically correct in his discussion of the machine that he is sitting in front of precisely because it IS a "$100 flea market special" -- but his logic ONLY applies to the Pachislo and NOT a standard slot machine, and even then he isn't entirely correct.

However, he is misleading people by failing to discern the difference and by implying that the machines in casinos in the U.S. behave the same way that Pachislos behave.
That's 100% bull.

FWIW: Pachislos do give up their bonus rounds in cycles that are not random and that can be seen to progress (at least in video versions where the video progresses as you get further along); even so, the interval between bonus rounds is slightly random and can vary quite a bit; during normal play the stops are predetermined by the computer and cannot be influenced; once the bonus round requirement has been met (but before the round has started) the player can then use skill to lock in the jackpot symbols (7's typically); the better the player is at this, the fewer coins it will take to get the bonus started. I also believe (but am not certain) that player skill can influence the odds of getting the big bonus vs. the regular bonus on some games.

This guy pisses me off because he has ended up contributing to the mountain of misinformation regarding slots in general when he could have clearly stated that his comments and observations only applied to the Japanese skill stop machines.

My pet peeve: Comparing Japanese skill-stop Pachislo machines to the slots made by IGT, Williams, Bally, and the rest of the slot world is like comparing apples to lug wrenches. No comparison should be made.

It is very difficult to listen when he doesn't have a "real" slot machine behind him.   Has anyone ever even seen one of those machines used outside of the flea market?   
 Anyway - we know that the machines in the U.S. are completely random.  The odds are set through the pay table in the chips.  I believe it works something like this - the computer generates a random number between lets say  0 and 1,000,000.   That number is looked up in the pay table and causes the appropriate payout.

If I am incorrect please let me know.   

Thanks

Thanks for the post Joey.

This guy seems quite knowledgeable, It's great that he is willing to share his knowledge.   :103- :103-


Thanks,
Wayne

Almost...

When the game is initiated the RNG produces 3 sets of numbers, 1 set for each reel, between 1 and xxx (xxx = number of virtual stops on the virtual reel strip) then whatever the stop is selected it's mapped back to the corrected position on the physical reel strips and the reel spins to the position.

You know this isn't the first video that has been 'reviewed' here. Perhaps the NLG community should produce a video 'warts and all' that dispels all this dross and explains it how it is, I mean not me obviously, but someone who knows what they are talking about and is, maybe, used to broadcasting on Radio!! Just a thought.

Hey folks,

I have got to say, I snickered throughout watching that video. I actually own one of those Japanese pachinko machines. Its theme is called Renkin (means conjurer in Japanese. Not that that’s relevant to the discussion *Picture at bottom*). I also own an IGT ten times pay American slot machine.


The Japanese machine is by no means “random” as you and I know it, as we play our American machines. The payouts of these pachinko machines are programmable, and predictable. Here is the chart for my machine:

Level      Payout
1   93.9 – 98.5 %     
2   93.9 – 98.5 %
3   98.3 – 102.8 %
4   102.6 – 106.4 %
5   106.4 – 110.9 %
6   111.9 – 116.8 %
 
They also have what’s called “Big Bonus” and “Reg Bonus” settings associated with those levels. They also go up with the level number. The higher the set number, the more cash you win in a bonus.

While there is a random element to the choices the system makes, the skill set buttons have no determination of the outcome. If the system has chosen (for example) a cherry for row one, its going to drop there regardless of hitting the button now, or in 10 seconds. Its already chosen. That becomes obvious when you get into a bonus and hit three wild cards 5 or 6 pulls in a row, but in no where else (my machine has no blank stops, only picture stops).

Each strip has 21 pictures (in the case of my machine). They duplicate between 2 to 5 in repetition. The exception to that rule is the “big win” icon, which may only duplicate every 7 or 8 pictures. When they are spinning, the frequency of the icons are often enough to give the impression you are by skill, stopping the reel, however, the determination is already chosen as soon as you spin the reels. You can see this happen by monitoring the number logic board, as it stops as soon as you hit the “spin” knob, not the skill stop buttons.

One of the main reasons I enjoy slot machines, is my fascination of the math of these machines. Random number outcomes generated by digital systems has always been a fascination, and a hobby to me. I can assure you, that the pachinko machine (at least the one I own) is by no means random in the sense that we are use to with American slot machines. The pachinko machine is very predictable (in my opinion). My IGT slot is not predictable in any way when comparing side by side to a pachinko machine.

Now there may very well be pachinko machines that have a true random element. There are assorted companies making them, and the themes vary quite a bit. Mine is built by a company named “Sammy” based out of Japan, and is more of a fun theme play machine. Since it is very predictable in its win times, I have won the JACKPOT at least a dozen times with the Pachinko machine. I've never hit the big JACKPOT on my IGT machine.

I give this guy a credibility score of ZERO!  :52-
His reference to real casino slots while he sits in front of that Flea Market piece of crap is laughable.
(ADDED; my "piece of crap" remark maybe a bit harsh, pachinko machines have their market, but I can't stand it when they advertise as real, full size slot machines)
And, the reason I play slots over table games is entertainment, not because I think it's the best chance to win!!!
I'm buying entertainment just like paying to see a movie. Face it, the casino will get your money one way or another.
Might as well enjoy what your paying for.

jdkmunch,
to expand on Brianzz's explanation; most 3-reelers have 22 physical stops, 11 symbols, 11 blanks. A virtual stop table may have, say, 66 stops per reel. So it would look like this (kinda)  1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5.... up to 21. Lets say the #3 is the jackpot symbol location and the 2's and 4's are the blanks on either side. You see there is one #3 and several 2's and 4's. The chance the RNG will pick the address of a 2 or a 4 is five times greater for each rather then hit the 3. That's why you see so many "oh so close" near misses. It's the virtual stop table that determines the odds. And how they set it up that determines the near misses too!
Just my 2-cents.

I think you nailed it here.  My wife complains that I don't play Blackjack anymore and mostly play slots, I used to play Blackjack and do pretty good, but stopped on a one week trip to Vegas.  I played Blackjack amost of my waking hours from Sunday to Wednesday, and after spending some money shopping was up about $400 (probably about $1000 without shopping), this was when I realized I was on vacation and not at work, I would have made more if I had stayed at work instead, the trip itself cost more.  I felt like I had been working all of this time so I went to the slots and played there, I then started to enjoy my vacation.  I play slots for entertainment and often think about other things while playing which, for me, is like meditation.  If by chance I win, then that is a bonus, but it all makes it's way back to the casinos in the end.

Have a great weekend,
Wayne  :61-

Hello all!

Before I respond, I do not mean to sound like an ass, altough it probably will come out that way...lol


First, these are Pachislo machines, not Pachinko.  I have a pic of a Pachinko machine below for reference.


Wrong!  This goes the same to the guy in the video.

If they were not random, you would be implying they are following a predetermined pattern.  They are not.

Any previous spin does not affect the outcome of the current spin or any future spin.

These machines are random within a specific set of rules - but still random.


This is the same as US machines except it's done with a button rather than a chip.


The only thing that is "predictable" on a Pachislo is the bonus round.  A bonus round is just like hitting a jackpot on a American slot - but rather than paying it all at once, you go into a bonus round where it "appears" you are still playing the machine where in actuallallity the jackpot/bonus amount has been predetermined.  BUT, hitting the bonus round itself was still random.  The best way I've heard this described is you "play" through your jackpot/bonus rather than it just paying out.

To give an example, I believe "bonus" rounds are the same on American slots.  For example, the ones that have a video screen and you pick a box/etc to win a bonus, I don't think it matters which box you pick - you would get the same bonus amount anyway no matter which box you pick (you know when you select one and then they show all the boxes and you say to yourself - damn, if I had only selected that other box - I don't think it matters - maybe someone else can chime in on this one).


I just wanted to clear up that both Pachislo and American slots ARE random and use a RNG (random number generator) with each spin (except sometimes in bonus rounds).

Dan #2

It's time to break this video out again...
http://www.pinrepair.com/temp/slotbombv2.wmv (http://www.pinrepair.com/temp/slotbombv2.wmv)

I agree with Wayne - good entertainment.   Today I drove to Mohegan Sun with my wife.  We ate and played the slots for 5 hours.  Total for the day $14 down.    :3-   I have to say I love walking around the casino and seeing the same game that I have in the basement!



Thanks for clearing up that the machines pick 3 random numbers. 

Correct.  I couldn't even make it more than two minutes into the video -- he's just plain wrong when it comes to Class III slots.

Correct for an S+, but not correct for every make/model of Class III machine.  WMS reel machines do it differently.  The randomness is the same, but the method is different.

We like to be as wrong as possible, maybe one day we can be promoted to youtube video makers to exploit our stupidity

 :72- :72- :72- :72- :72- :72-


I was going to remark about the Pachislo/Pachinko error, but dpalmi already straightened out that mistake.



I basically agree with you Dan. Your example of the Pachislo bonus round as "playing through your jackpot" instead of just getting paid is a good way to describe it. Japanese law states that a machine cannot pay out more than 15 coins (or balls) in a win so they design these games to pay large jackpots in bonus rounds. This is true for Pachinko machines as well.

I believe that the statement in red above can only be applied to Pachislos if you consider a series of spins as one random outcome (and I agree that this is the correct way to view them). Another way of putting it is that the Pachislos use an RNG to determine the final winning outcome, but it can take several spins to bring an outcome to its conclusion. However, I would add that this applies to smaller wins as well and not only to the bonus round, at least on some machines.

Also, there are specific times when the player needs to use skill to stop the reels for maximum payback.

For example, I own a Firedrift. On this machine, one must be assigned and then successfully complete a mission (that takes at least 4 spins) to be set up for a bonus round. But to get an opportunity to enter a mission, one must first see police cars go by several times in the video. This happens over dozens of regular spins. Even though the appearance of a mission is random, the mission won't be assigned until the cops show up first. Then the RNG determines whether the mission will fail or succeed (i.e., awarding a bonus.) This machine also telegraphs the outcome of small wins using a combination of the video animation and the reel backlights. Most of the time you know what you're going to win before you stop the reels, and skill doesn't come into play.

Once a mission succeeds and the machine is ready to give out either a regular or big bonus, then the skill to stop on the 7's makes a difference in the spin outcome. I have tried just randomly pushing the buttons at that time and only after dozens of spins (and dozens x 3 in token losses) will it finally force a trip-seven combination. However, if I watch the symbols go by and time it carefully, I can hit the trip-sevens in a couple of spins, significantly lowering the cost in tokens of getting the bonus started. Skill also comes into play during the big bonus.

On my machine, the big bonus is three regular bonuses strung together. Each of them pays exactly 112 coins (15 coins * 8 spins at a cost of 1 coin per spin). However, the play in between rounds can be affected by player skill (as well as by the payback percentage the machine is set to :96-). There are up to 30 spins available to get into the three regular bonuses. Those spins cost 3 coins but usually pay out 8. The trick is to get as many of those spins as possible before entering the third bonus round where, upon it's completion, the big bonus ends. During these 30 spins, the reel back lights signal the outcome that has been selected to the player in advance. If the outcome would be to go to the bonus round, the player can avoid this outcome by stopping the reels in a specific way. Eventually the computer will force the bonus round anyway, but skill here can increase the total bonus payout.

Some machines are called fever machines. It is a gimmick to keep players at the machines for long periods of time. This applies to Pachislos and Pachinkos as well. My Star Wars Pachinko (the vertical machine with pegs and bouncing balls  :30-) is a fever machine. The machine has two "pay tables" so to speak. Once a player has hit the "jackpot" bonus round the first time and it ends (In a method designed to behave like the slot-type Pachislos, this round opens a large door where practically every ball shot into the machine gets caught and pays -- you guessed it -- 15 balls per ball), the machine goes into a "fever" mode for the next 100 spins (video display) where the odds of hitting another jackpot bonus are significantly increased and the special hole with wings is almost always open. I have hit as many as three or four "extra" jackpot rounds during this time. It can take a couple of hours of play to finish this 100 spin period and the jackpots it gives up. Talk about keeping players hooked! :5-

Finally, the most enjoyable thing about my Pachislo: The mission videos of the characters speaking in broken English and yelling Japanese one-liners!! :72- :72- :72- and the MUSIC and video animation in the bonus rounds.

The Star Wars Pachinko: It has a real moving model of R2D2 with a working light lens. When he turns to face the LCD screen and shines his light on it, they actually animate the light and time it so that it appears to go right into the screen and light up the objects inside. There is also a red light saber and when it glows they play a sound effect of Darth Vader breathing loudly.  :97- :97-

Dan,

First off, your correction of the "Pachislo" machine is absolutely correct. I don't see your response as "Being an ass", for you are correct, I stand corrected.

However, if you read my notes about the machine being random, you will see that I'm not claiming there is no random element, only the fact that when I am compairing the "random element" between the "pachislo" machine, and an American slot machine, is simply different, as you folks have been pointing out in further discussion.

Point being, everyone who owns one of these machines, "see patterns". This is simply the point I was trying to explain.

When I play the pachislo machine, I see patterns even in standard play. Perhaps the use of the word pattern is not the right description here. For example, on my machine, the three bells fall quite often, and the three replay icons fall quite often. While it may have a random element to the machine choosing that set, its still a series I see often enough to call it a pattern. It falls one out of 5 or one out of 10 spins at least. Often enough I call it a pattern.

You have also stated that during the bonus, you have a pattern of icons that are random, but still follow a specific set of rules.

Again, my entire message is making comparisons to the IGT machine random as a side by side comparison. I never said there wasn't a random element, only that is is different.

My quote is: "The Japanese machine is by no means "random" as you and I know it, as we play our American machines."

I don't believe that statement to be wrong at all. I'm simply pointing out that it is different, again, as pointed out in the further discussions by others after my message. That statement does not say there is no random element.

You then said "The only thing that is "predictable" on a Pachislo is the bonus round." That sounds like you stated there is a predictable pattern to me. Again, simply comparing it to my IGT American slot.

Perhaps we are simply fussing over semantics here. I never see patterns fall on my IGT machine. I do on the Pachislo machine all the time. Perhaps the proper statement is "Not as random appearing as the IGT machine". I'm not sure what would satisfy your requirement here.

I do agree totally with you however on the fact that I called this machine a "pachinko" machine, and that I am wrong with that statement.

Mark

Same goes here.
Thanks Dan and Stat for the explanations.
Jim

so let me get this right the fuller the machine the better it pays ????????? :131- :131- :72- :72- :72- :72- :97-  so will that work with t in t out  well  :30- :30-

Now THATS a keeper!

a usefull repair video for a tech

Thanks Joey for the video.
This guy kills me. Almost 6yrs = Professional? :103-
I'd like to see this guy post the same demonstration with a REAL Slot Machine! :72-
Though he did have a couple good points, I think, overall, this info is very misleading...especially in the implication of ALL Slot Machines :81-