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I have, according to the tag a Bally 809-5ZB. I was working on this last year but got side tracked with my s plus machine. I'm now an back to this one. I finally opened up my Bally book (by Mead) and am now confused. The 809 in there shows a 5 coin multiplier with single, double, triple bars. I have only single bars and TONS of melons!. I have no idea if maybe this is a different reel set or not. It all matches the glass so I'm thinking this WAS once working as it should.
I posted a question on payouts many months ago and got the areas to check...which I did and all contacts were clean and making contact.
Here is what it's doing now. This is just a random table of payout amounts. There seems to be no consistency.  
3 coins in - 3 melons - paid $3.20  Should be $3.00
3 coins in - 1 cherry       - paid 6        Should be 6
2 coins in - 3 melons - paid $1.85  Should be $2.00
2 coins in - 1 cherry  - paid 4        Should be 4

Should I just take the reel assembly apart completely and clean all the contacts/wipers and boards?
And, should I do the same with the hopper?
I've done a LOT of spot contact cleaning over large areas but the problems remain.

I'm guessing a hopper problem.
With the melons pay online, with 2 coins in, pull slightly on your hopper carriage assembly and see if it finishes paying.
If it does, then adjust your outboard wipers, they are probably out of adjustment.
If that's not it, then check your other pays also to see if it's just a melon problem or not.
You may have some dirty spots on your X-units, which could cause an over pay, but probably not a short pay.
Check all your pays and let us know which ones are bad, that might help diagnosing the problem.
Sounds cool....
Also, not having enough tension on your spiral cam spring can often cause the hopper to double step, and give 2 coins out while only counting one.  However, you said cherries pay fine, so that's probably not it.  Sorry.
I'm reasonably sure this is not a reel mech problem.

Oh, where do your hopper wiper fingers end up at after the melon pay is over?

Thanks OldReno
I did a quick check when I was home today and set up the three melon win, with 2 coins in. This time, I got $1.95! I did go in and wiggle the hopper but nothing else happened. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the payouts. I'll check the finger location on the hopper when I get back home tonight.
Do you know why there's so many melons on this machine? It hits three melons constantly. I think you've seen this machine but here it is again, showing a previous very common win condition.

Wiggle (pull) the hopper carriage, not the hopper.
Post a reading of your reel strips, and the pay structure, and we can figure out the percentage, and the hit frequency.
Oh, I see it's an Eldorado machine.  Surprised it hits so often....  They used to just pull them off the floor when they paid out too much.
Maybe that's one of them...Ha.
I notice by looking at your payglass in zoom that it's only a 20 coin pay.  That leads me to believe you may have payboard adjustment issues, but I don't know for sure.  We'll keep at it, eh?
It's behaving oddly, but that's the fun in it all.

Hi
Sorry if I sound like a doofus...I'm not up on EM terminology.  :279-
I set up the two coin, three melon pay and got $1.80. The first picture are the hopper fingers. I hope I am taking the picture of what you want to see.
I tried pulling on the hopper carriage. Is that the bowl part? Well I wiggled it and nothing happened.
Next, I just did some random win set ups and got this:
1 Coin - 3 "$2.50" -got $2.50 - should be $2.50
2 Coin - 2  Cherry - got 10     - should be 10
4 Coin - 1  Cherry - got 5       -should be 8
2 Coin - 3 Melon   - got $1.80 -should be $2.00
4 Coin - 1 Cherry  - got 8       - should be 8
1 Coin - 3 Melon   - got $1.05 - should be $1.00
1 Coin - 3 Melon   - got $0.90 - should be $1.00
5 Coin - 2 Cherry  - got 21      - should be 25

Finally...I wasn't sure what you meant by the reading of the reel strips. I assume you mean a list of symbols on each reel. Here they are!
All numbers are starting from 7 and listed as I looked down. Reel #1 is reel on left.
Reel #1  Reel #2  Reel #3
7            7           7
Mel         Mel        Mel
2.50        2.50       Bar
Mel         Chry       Mel
Bar          2.50      Org
Mel          Bar       Mel
Bar          2.50      Plum
Mel          Plum     Org
2.50         2.50      Bell
Mel          Mel       Mel
Bar          2.50      Org
Bell          Mel       Mel
Mel          2.50      Org
Chry         Bar       Mel
Mel          Org       Org
Org          2.50      2.50
Mel          Plum     Org
Plum        2.50      Plum
Mel          Bell       Mel
Bell          2.50      Org

Good picture, excellent, thanks.
Looking at your payfingers, it appears they have stepped waaay beyond the 20 coins segment.  After a 20 pay, they should be JUST BARELY off the 20.
You may not have enough tension on the torsion spring on the back of your white 100 tooth paygear that the wiper fingers are mounted on.  There are different adjusting holes on the 100 tooth gear assembly, so you can carefully unwind the spring, and reposition it into another hole.  I generally make it so that there are about 2 and 1/2 turns on that spring.  If there are too few turns (not enough tension), then the machine can double step which will give you those kinds of pay problems.
Again, good photo, that really helps.
The hopper carriage is that big piece that your zero switch is mounted on.
Good job so far!!!
I'll try to get to your percentages soon.
Also, when you look at your 100 tooth gear, inspect all of the teeth to see that none are missing or worn down....
If you can, trace the wire from the 20 coin paytab, and see if it goes to any switches mounted by or on the carriage.  Sometimes machines will have an 'open at 20' switch built in, which should, as it suggests, open at 20 coins.
(I love a good mystery!)

I'm a little confused. I see waaaaaaaaay inside the hopper, a spring wound around a plastic core. Is this the spring? The inside end of the spring is in one of four holes. If this is the spring, I'm not sure what you mean. The spring seems kind of loose though. I can barely reach it with my skinny long metal hook thingy but don't know if I can actually take that spring out of the hole. And if I can, do I turn the core and in which direction? I'm making myself more confused now.

The long end of the spring hooks onto a post.  Carefully remove it (spring end, not post LOL)and slowly let the spring unwind, counting how many turns it makes.  It should unwind 2 and 1/2 times.  If not, then add another turn when putting it back on.  Will be back later to help, gotta run right now....

I removed that end of the spring and nothing happens. I'm not sure how to add a turn. I can turn the gear but it just spins back.

OK OldReno,

My guess is 84.8 % payback.  And of all hits, melens hit nearly 30% of the time.

Richard

@shorttrack, just turn/wind the long end of the spring counterclockwise one full revolution and put the end back on the post.  With your payboard assembly down, it's like setting/changing the time on a clock. An analog clock, not digital LOL. That may add enough tension so that it stops double stepping.  Let us know if that improves the pays or not.
@ricker, good job!  Did you add in the kicker of $60 for 5 coins played on the jackpot?

@shorttrackskater, you did remove the screw holding the payboard and assembly in place, and lower it down so you could get at it??? Probably a silly question on my part...but just checking.
2 screws hold it onto the hopper.  Remove the top one, and it folds down so you can access it.

Thanks for all the help so far!!! :3- :259- :259- :259- :259- :259- :259- :259- :259-
No I didn't remove anything yet. I just flipped the hopper on one side and could access the spring from an opening. I wasn't sure if there was any trick to do this without removing anything. But what you said sounds fairly easy so I'll get to it this afternoon.
Another quick question:
Do you think this IS an 809 as the tag says on the side? Were machines commonly swapped out with different innards to suit the casino? I'm just curious since the payout glass and reels all match up. And I've still never seen this particular reel (with all those melons!) set anywhere in the Bally book.
Tons of errands to do but I'll be back in the afternoon.
Thank you again!

@ricker, good job!  Did you add in the kicker of $60 for 5 coins played on the jackpot?
[/quote

Yes I did.  Percentage based on max coins played.

Some casinos would have their own custom reel strips, discs and glass made up.  That way you could easily change percentages, without having to paste over new reel symbols, and cut out the discs. One of the quickest % changes we made, was to remove a cherry and add a 7.

Much easier with that unit out! Okay I wound the spring just one turn. Now it overpays on the 2 coin three melon by ten cents. So I backed the spring two turns the other way (looser) and now the two coin three melon pays 95 cents!

UPDATE: I took the unit out and unwound the spring. Repositioned it into another hole and wound 2 1/2 times. Now the 2 coin 3 melon pay is $1.90
I'm going to repeat this again and see what happens. Maybe I wasn't quite 2 1/2 turns.

UPDATE: I repositioned the spring into another hole and 2 1/2 turns (which "met" the post) and got the $1.90 for 2 coin 3 melon. Then I just played for a minute. Got 4 for 2 coin 1 cherry, got 5 for 2 coin 1 cherry and then got 4 for 2 coin 1 cherry.
I'm confused.
Also FYI - I do have a bunch of new Bally springs including this one. I can try replacing it but the existing spring looks okay to me.

UPDATE: Messed around with the spring again. Now it's paying either $1.95 or $2.00 for 2 coin 3 melon. And 2 coin 1 cherry pays 3 or 4.
Just for fun, I set up a 5 coin 1 cherry win and got the proper 10 but the 5 coin 2 cherry awarded me 21 instead of 25!

Where's everybody?  :37- OldReno???



Oh wait...I know where you and ricker are!
 :BBQ-

I'm still stuck! Guess I'll throw the towel back over the machine and work on the jeep.  :128-

Hey, sorry, been out of town, just got back.  Will try to post you later tonight....

THANKS!! I will remove the towel.  :273-

Glad the towel is gone.
OK, we can assume your spring is ok, or pretty near at normal, so that's not the problem.
The first thing you should do anytime you have a mis-pay, is to pull out the hopper and look at where the wiper fingers ended up.
You can put a little mark on the board with a sharpie if you like.
Try a pay several times, and if the fingers always end up in the correct position, then you probably don't need to adjust your payboard.
In that case, then you're getting some kind of double step or mis-step
If the fingers are at different spots, then you may need to loosen the 2 bolts that hold the payboard secure, and slightly rotate it one way or the other.
If you feel up to it, you can take apart the payboard assembly and check it visually.  To do that, manually step the payboard one step (to lock in the spiral cam and keep it from unwinding).  Then with a small screwdriver, remove the 3 little E clips that hold the carriage onto the posts on the spiral cam.  Keep your finger on the e-clip.  We call them Jesus clips, because if you don't have your finger on there, when you pop it off with your screwdriver you go, "Jesus, where did it go?"
After carriage is removed, then put your thumb firmly pressing the front of the spiral cam and reach with your fingers over the top of the unit and hold the 100 tooth gear firmly squeezed against the spiral.  Then you can remove the screw holding the spiral to the 100 tooth gear, and then pull off the spiral cam.  You can then view your board, and also the condition of the spiral cam payfingers.  Clean the fingers and board all up with a cloth and some weak solvent, and then look at the fingers to see that they are all in the same plane.  If any of them appear to be lifted, or not contacting well, then put a little slight bend in them to give them more pressure when they contact the board.  Take pics if you can of the whole assembly.  When you put it back together, do it in reverse order, and make SURE when you press the spiral cam back on to the gear that you hold the gear firmly in place.  If you don't, the spiral will push the gear out of place and mess things up.
While disassembled, pay attention to the condition of your pay segments, to see that they are not worn or dirty.
You can rub a little light oil on the payboard, and then rub it off with a clean cloth.
Take a pic of assembly before you start, so you can be certain how it goes back together.  If not, we'll walk you through it....
I still think you're getting a double step from a mechanical problem originating with the step up assembly, which is activated by your coin out roller.
Is your payboard mechanically stepped with a linkage, or is it electrically stepped with a solenoid?

If you don't feel like disassembling your payboard right now, we can work on your step up problem by looking at your step up assembly.
But first, we need to know if it is a mechanical step or electric with a solenoid.
And, you should take a good careful look at your 100 tooth gear behind the payboard, to see if there are any teeth missing on it or worn down.  If so, you can turn it 180 degrees for your low pays, and thus have a fresh set of teeth, if you also move the spiral cam out 180 degrees.

I decided to start with the easier things!
For some weird reason, the one coin three melon is working each time. But this happened before.
So I set up a four coin, one cherry payout. I'd get 9 one time, then 8, then 9. The "fingers" ( I'm assuming those are at the top and bottom right side of the payout board?) were in the same spot.
I'm not sure why I did this (maybe because I love "clean") but I took a swap with some mild cleaning solution and wiped that spiral cam (that is the thing in the middle that looks like a round maze?) as much as possible. I then set up the four coin, one cherry payout and got the correct amount three times.
But I had to go eat dinner....
So now I'm returning to the garage to try more payout set ups.
I'll be back.
Thank you, again.

UPDATE: No it's still paying off weird. I set up one coin, three plums and one coin two plums and a bar numerous times. I'd get 14, then 14, then 13. Then I made it two coin and got the same results which was one coin short intermittently. But when I went to three coins, I'd get one coin OVER.
I did look at the teeth and they all look good. I can take a picture if you need but they look "sharp" to me.
Should I begin what you've told me? I may need some terminology explanation on some stuff but I'll look at my Bally book first.

The fingers at the top and bottom of the right side of your board are the outboard wipers, and are only used for the higher payouts, 50 coins, 100 and 200.  Your concern is the inboard wipers, which are the ones that are attached to your spiral cam.
Tilt the hopper on its side, and look at your payboard and how the inboard wipers relate to it.  You will see the pay segments on the board, and as you step up your payboard you can see when the fingers step off of each pay segment.  They are all labelled at the bottom of the payboard.
As you physically step the hopper, you will see the payfingers move past these pay segments.  Depending on what you hit, that determines which of those pay segments is hot.  A hot segment allows the hopper to run, and when the fingers fall off a hot segment, then the hopper loses power and stops spinning.  Pay is over then. That's basically how it works, but OpBell could certainly explain it better.
If, on a 20 coin pay, the payfingers are real close to stepping off the tab at 19 coins, then sometimes it will stop at 19, and sometimes it will make enough contact to get the 20th coin out.  Hit and miss. after 19 coins out, the payfingers should be still well on the 20 tab.  If it looks precarious, you may have to loosen the 2 bolts that hold the payboard onto its bracket, and slightly move it either clockwise or counter clockwise to get it to line up with the payfingers.
By the way, the bottom payfinger is for 2 coins, the next for 5 coins, the 3rd up for 10 coins, then 14 coins, then 18 coins then 20 coins. As you will see when you look at the board and fingers.... Anything above 20 coins is handled by the outboard wipers.
I hope that's not too confusing.  But we'll stay on it, regardless.
So, it is vital that you note where the inboard (spiral) payfingers end up after each pay.
I still need to know if it is a mechanical or electrically stepped hopper.
Hang in there....
When you have time, read some of the old threads I've started in the Electromechanical section, and they might help explain the machine better for you.  Good job and good persistence, by the way....

One thing is consistent...the four coin, two cherry always pays out 21 or 22 instead of 20.
Here's my hopper, from the top.

OK, good, you have an electrical step.  First, take off that goofy shield on the lower right corner of your photo and throw that away.  That's an anti cheat device, it's not needed (or wanted) and it keeps you from being able to manually step the hopper.
Once that's gone, then you should see the top part of your hopper step up solenoid plunger, just underneath the coin out switches there on top.
You can manually push down on that plunger, and then watch what your payboard fingers do.
If you remove the top screw holding your payboard to the hopper, then you can pull it down and take another photo of it.  There is a reset pawl on there that will let you easily reset the hopper.  It's easier to use than reaching waaaay back in and pushing the reset solenoid plunger, which is what many people do.  I will show you where it is after you post photo.
You're making good progress, so keep at it.

Ok...that was easy. Is that anti cheat a Bally thing or aftermarket/casino add on?
Just for the hell of it, I set up a one coin, three melon pay. It's correctly paying 20 coins BUT the fingers are all touching the "50" contact plate. I can add a picture of that when I get home if that helps.

After a 20 coin pay, the fingers should be near (or on) the 50 segment.  That's ok, because the 50 segment never gets hot on a 20 coin pay.
Nice pics, thanks for sending them.  On your top photo (1448) look just below that set of switches that point to the left.  Just down from those switches, you see a little bend of metal that looks like an L.  Push that L down, and you will see that it resets the pay fingers.  This is a very quick way to reset the hopper board.  It is not however a full reset such as the machine does. It will not turn off the winner paid light, which is the switch on the left side of your second photo, (activated by that little white round disc next to your left-most spring) Nor will it reset your latch pawls to free up the 100 tooth gear.  The machine resets the board by pulsing the reset solenoid as shown at the top left of your picture (#1449).  But either way works for our purposes. You should check out both ways, just to understand the difference.
Now that you have the board pulled down you can physically check your steps.  Reset the board, and then push down on your step up plunger solenoid (2nd photo at right hand side) for 20 steps.  Lift up board and see where the fingers end up.  reset hopper and try it again.  Do this several times and note if the fingers always end up in the same place.
ON the 2nd photo, left hand side of the white 100 tooth gear, you will see 2 metal pieces that work on the teeth of that gear.  Look carefully as you push the step up solenoid plunger, and try to see if at any point the tab is picking up 2 teeth instead of one.
Not that this will tell us a lot, because the machine pulls down much harder on that plunger than you can push it down.
Put a mark with a sharpie at where the pay fingers end up after 20 steps.  Then, with the hopper back in set up melons and try that pay several times to see if the fingers always end up in the same spot.
Sometimes if there is slop in the step up solenoid mount, then it'll often double step, which of course leads to short pays.
Anyway, play around with it for awhile and see if you can find anything unusual going on....

Did all that already except checking for the double tooth thing, which I'll do tonight! Thanks again so far.

Got side tracked and finished late with some other things. Another question: is there an easier to set up the win combination easier? What I do is coin the machine, pull the handle and (if it doesn't hit), then power off the machine and set the reels to the proper place, then power on - and the hopper begins the pay out. Is there an easier way to do this?

Sure is-
Pull the handle, stop the fan (left side of reels) and then put symbols on center line (reels will freewheel), release fan and reels will index.
OR, method #2-
pull handle down half-way. pull down on each reel firmly and you will see that it moves.  Set up pay on center line, hold reels in place, finish handle pull.
Or, method #3
Pull reel mech forward, push back on reel #1 index arm and move reel to correct position, release index arm, do same thing for reels #2, and #3.
Much easier, and will save you a lot of time.
I prefer just stopping the clock (holding fan) while reels freespin.

I hope I'm remembering everything here. With the hopper out, I reset it and manually stepped it 20 steps. I put a dot (white out!) where the fingers stopped. I did this numerous times and it ended up in the same spot.
Then I reset the hopper, set up the one coin three melon pay and got the result as seen in the second picture: the fingers are slightly ahead of where they were before. I did that three times and all three ended up in the same spot and the payout was correctly at 20.

Looks kind of suspicious to me.  Just posted a piece on ohming out your payboard (here in Electromechanicals).  Read it and it should show you how to check that 20 tab.  You may have to loosen the 2 bolts that hold your payboard onto its bracket, and that will allow you to twist the board one way or the other to align those payfingers.  The 2 bolts are UNDER the spiral cam, and you can reach them with an open ended wrench (forgot what size -- maybe 3/8?)
Thanks for photos!!! Looks to me like the fingers are hit and miss on the 20 tab (top photo) so that MAY be the problem.
Hey, you're getting pretty good at this!!!!
Just for kicks, manually step it up again (to photo #1), and with a melon pay on the reels, plug back in the hopper.  It may pay out one more coin which will tell us right away you need a little minor adjusting....

Oops I forgot to mention I did loosen the payboard a few days ago and rotated it slightly left. I got a higher payout first but then got a lower one. I forgot what I set it to though. It ended up not seeming to make a difference but I rotated it back slightly to the left anyway.
I'm still not sure what I'm doing sometimes. I need to read up on the theory of operation on these. Are the fingers always hot, and do they make contact with the spiral to activate the hopper? I really need to read my big Bally book but I'm better at just diving in sometimes.
*** Should I be checking all these things on the INCORRECT payout combinations? The one coin, three melon seems to payout properly each time.
Hope this reply isn't too rambling! :25-

The payfingers only act as a bridge to bring power from the hot pay segment (whichever one) onto the feed.  All the payfingers are connected, but only the hot one gets the signal to the feed.  And, the pay segments only get hot when the reels tell them to.
the spiral just holds the payfingers in place, and has no circuitry.  It's just a mechanical device to move the outboard wipers back when high pays happen. It all happens ON the payboard.
Your're doing great.
Check all your pays so you can get a handle (pun) on which ones are consistently wrong.

Thanks!  :3-
And I did just read your post on ohming-out the board, which helps considerably. Of course, now that I'm anxious to work on the machine - I can't!!! Gotta go work until 6pm! Darn Sunday schedule.  :37-

Do you have the Owners Pictorial Guide for the care and understanding of the Bally Slot Machine? It's a good book to have for working on the EM Ballys. Pages 119-123 covers Payout Counter Adjustments. This section covers the two adjustments of the lower stop bracket and the upper stop tab. These two adjustments control the starting points of your 100 tooth gear, its backlash and over travel so only one tooth is engaged at a time.. I had a payout problem with my 742 but after making these two adjustments and rotating the wiper board my problems went away. Let me know if your don't have this manual, I'll see if I can scan the pages.

Gary

I do have that book Gary and thank you for the offer too. I keep reading bits of it and I will read that specific part tomorrow. I feel like I should just read it cover to cover. These EM's seem so much more difficult to work on compared to the S plus!
Thank you again!

I re-examined the spiral cam spring, it had overlapped so I took it out, cleaned it (oily) and wound it back on two turns (the book said that). I checked all the low payouts for one coin "wins" and it's paying out exactly half.  :103-

My question now is...do I have to put the fingers at a start point before I wind the spring? I guess I can look at my other old working (mostly) Bally 1114 and see where that hopper is, at the rest position.
Ill check back later tonight.

Should have warned you about winding that spring politely, and not winding it over on itself.
Yes, you should reset your hopper to zero before you wind the spring.  AND manually step it once to lock it in place.  Once you got it to 2 or 2 and 1/2 winds, don't worry about it.
My question to you, as certainly you have digested all the threads above, is,...where are you payfingers ending up after these short pays?
If they end up off their correct pay tabs, then you're getting double-steps in there somewhere.
And thanks, you reminded me to post another thread about torsion springs....
Rule #1 on checking mis-pays -- look at where the payfingers end up.
Rule #2, we don't talk about fight club.
LOL.

Okay...stupid question but... where is the 0 setting??? There's nothing in the book I can see as to the start position of the fingers. There's an F, there's a CO. I tried it on the CO and got the same thing...
Frustrating.
I tried checking on my other Bally but the hopper and payboard are separate!

here is a pic of my 0 switch on my bally hopper..

So you can look at it and see where yours is at..

Thank You! I ended up putting all my tools away, shutting off my stereo and coming inside but I'll adjust it first thing in the morning. Mine was just short of that spot, on the CO tabs.

this pic was taken when it was to far open....

I made all most all the way cloed.. where you can just see light between the gap...

lossen the nut on top and turn the stoper down then tighten up the nut...

I appreciate your post    :131-      but I'm not sure if I understand any of what you said, other than the picture is not showing the correct position?

@skater, 0 setting just means reset the hopper payboard back to zero coins paid out.
(Its normal at rest position, which is 6 o'clock.)

The pic i posted is before i adjusted the 0 switch. because the gap was to big..

When the gap is to big it wont let the machine pay out.

So if you adjust the 0 switch to where you can barely see light through it.

Then it will work right.

It is in the right position in the pic.... But the Gap was to big in between the 2 points...

Okay...making more sense. Thanks to both of you. Sorry if I'm not getting it so quickly here...I'm trying but just a lot slower with EM's rather than S plussessssssssss!!!  :72-
I'll report back soon...yard work is calling.  :52-

Your not to far from me.

Your in the OC also...

I live between knotts and disnyland...

@DrFreeze, The problem is not that the gap is too big.  the zero switch does not affect your pays.
Here's what happened -- when you lowered your zero stop bumper, not only does it close the switch a little bit, but the biggie here is that it ALSO hits a little tab that is on the back of your spiral cam.  Lowering your bumper physically moves the spiral cam just a little bit, and that is what moved the fingers on your payboard just enough to the right to hit on the hot pay tabs.  Before, it was off the pay tabs which was causing your no-pay problems, and when you pulled on the hopper, you made those fingers make contact.
Look back by the zero stop, and you will see that little tab sticking out of the back of the spiral.  That is what fixed your pay problem., not the zero switch itself.  Hope that makes sense.
Please reread the above paragraph, because I want to make sure you understand what happened when you adjusted your zero stop.
The main purpose of the zero stop assembly, is to adjust the wipers, NOT to adjust the zero switch.  You can adjust the zero switch anytime with some needlenose pliers or switch tool.  It is important to me to know that you know the switch itself does not affect pays.

I didn't consider the zero switch bumper wearing down causing the wiper being off, I was thinking the other way with the stop bracket and tab causing too much of a backlash or slop in the first tooth of the 100 tooth gear first index. Nice catch OldReno..

Thanks. I believe the 'proper' way to adjust a hopper is to first make sure your reset pawls de-latch to hit the 100 tooth gear cleanly- (using your zero stop adjustment), and then to adjust the board to the correct position (2 bolts holding it in place), and then finally bend (adjust) the zero switch. Doing it this way can prevent wear on your gear teeth, however it does take some time to do it with any exactness.
Using your zero stop to adjust the zero switch is, IMHO, the wrong way to do it.
For normal use, I wouldn't worry too much.
If anyone is interested, I can do a post on that....

ok I am officially lost here...
Last thing I did was try and set the fingers to the 6 o'clock position...but which way do I set the spiral cam? Do I roll it counterclockways until it stops, then move the fingers back to the 6 postion? There's too much terminology I don't follow here.
I am trying to just read the book but I feel like I should just throw the towel back over this machine and this thread, read the book cover to cover, and come back later.
I'll try setting the finger contacts a few times in various positions of the cam and just see what happens.
Much as I read on the zero stop, I have no clue what it does.

Sent you a PM

Here's where the fingers are ending up after a one coin three melon win - it's paying 50 cents now instead of 1 dollar.
* First picture shows the tabs
* Second picture shows the only thing that's making me happy now!  :72-

I know how frustrating these can be. My very first EM took me years to figure out. I walked away from it many times, but that was before I found this sight. Now I have a question.. Does this machine payout correctly on small jackpots like 1 or 2 cherrys thru the plums and bells, or are all jackpots off? I saw the early post stating payouts, but I did see if those were corrected? If its paying correct on 2 thru 20 coin jackpots the larger ones shouldn't be too far off? The larger 50 and up jackpot are usually controlled by the wiper fingers on the chrome piece on top of the spiral cam. The top and bottom wipers are adjusted by loosing the two screws holding them in place.

Gary

 It was paying properly for small payouts...but now it's paying only half of the smaller payouts. When I tried to adjust the fingers, it would pay one coin over on small payouts such as $1.05 instead of $1.00. I'm still confused on setting the "start point" of the payout fingers and the exact method.
What I'm doing is removing the cam spring, setting the fingers just short of the 6 position, setting one time, then winding the spring two and a half times.
This seems to get it close on the smaller payouts. Hope this makes sense! As I said earlier, it sometimes will pay correctly and sometimes not...nothing is consistent. Most of the large payouts are short...well they were when I checked before.
One thing it did do last night (it did this a long time ago and then stopped) was the WINNER PAID and COIN ACCEPTED lights stopped working although it would still pay out. I opened the door and pulled out the reel set and pushed it back in and then it worked. I have no idea what's causing this but now it's not happening at all.
 :279-

Got back to working on the machine tonight and discovered the piston plunger thing was not moving smoothly. I took it apart to find the neoprene seal/washer thing had completely turned to "liquid gun." ICK! I think this was causing my INSERT COIN light to be intermittent since the switch wasn't getting tripped when the handle returned. Off to the WTB section and hope to be back here when the part is in. Then I'll get back to the weird payout issues, which are consistently inconsistent...too many and too few coins payout.  :279-

You are on the right track now!!  Good job!!

The piston problem has been discussed before, so try to find that thread.  I suspect you could cut a small donut out of a flat piece of inner tube that would fit over the piston and give you at least some degree of air compression.
Keep us posted on your payout problems, and elaborate as much as you can about just which pays are bad, and on how many coins in.  The more you can tell us, the better we can help....

Got the piston to work by just cleaning it out and removing the gunk. Works fine w/o the seal.
I started posting by accident in my WTB post. So I'm cutting and pasting my response HERE so it's not in the wrong place. Couldn't seem to find a moderator there.

Okay did all the cleaning and degumming. The piston now sets the arm back properly each time but I'm still having trouble with the INSERT COIN light being intermittent but it is NOT coming back on when I wiggle the handle so I know that piston was (WAS) one of my problems. Frustrating still, but I know I've got one thing out of the way.
UPDATE: cleaned my beau plugs on the reel assy. and the back of the machine and got both lights...again. I've cleaned those numerous times with contact cleaner. This time I used wd40 and wiped the excess as amechanic told me.
But this thing has been intermittent so I'll try a few plays and see if sticks. Then I'm back to the over/under pays.

More: Okay it definitely affects the both lights when I wiggle the reel assembly. Should I just stop now and replace ALL the beau plugs? I've cleaned them to death. I don't know what else I can do although it's going to take some time to do all that rewiring. Any other ideas? Someone once told me they should never be cleaned...that they had a sliver coating and that it's better to leave them alone.
More again: I shot my good contact cleaner on the plugs again and the light SEEM to be working. Maybe I can live with this for awhile but still wonder if I should replace the plugs. I'm getting correct pays on one coin wins and only "one over" pays on multi coin wins.
I'm done for the night. I hope the lights work next time I turn this on!

(the following are the replies from the WTB section that I should have started here...my fault)

Take your OHM meter and connect one end to the common wire of your coin lights and with the other probe check your beau plug to locate what pin is giving you the problem, of course with the power off.. Check it's condition as well as the other male plug. Most of those beau plugs have at least one open connection you could relocate the wire to.
Gary



Thanks Gary...I'll try that. Have you or anyone ever replaced the entire plug? I wish I could somehow "redo" the existing pins somehow, so the connection is tighter.

(Below is from OldReno)

Since you've cleaned your Beau plugs repeatedly, I doubt that's where your problems are.  A lot of folks get into trouble dicking around with those plugs, they are usually pretty trouble free.
Your insert coin light should be (partly) controlled by a N.C. set of switches on your odds unit.  When the odds unit steps up to max coins, that switch should open, turning off the insert coin light.  If that switch does not make good enough firm contact when the odds unit resets, that may be part of your problem. 
Darrell gave me an old 1088 schematic, and while the wiring may not be exactly the same as yours, it should be similar enough to help diagnose this problem.  The 1088 shows that the insert coin light is controlled by 1 switch on the payout relay (this one switch also powers the coin accepted and winner paid lights, so that would only be the problem if all of your 3 lights were out).  The second set of switches is the odds unit 'open at top' switch (I talked about it above), and the 3rd switch in line is the Reel mech C2 switch. 
There is one other switch in that circuit which is important, and it is the coin relay switch which also controls the coin accepted light.  This switch, in reset position, runs the insert coin light.  When the coin relay is tripped, then that switch moves to light up the coin accepted light.  It is a two way switch, one side lights "insert coin", the other side lights "coin accepted".
This is a very clever circuit, but would take a  long time to explain, so, follow the wire from your insert coin light from the door back to the reel mech C switches.  It may be a red wire with black trace (18) coming from the door, and you should find it on your C stack. From there it should change color on the other side of the switch to maybe a yellow with brown wire (36).  This 36 wire splits and one side goes to the coin relay switches.  The other 36 goes to the odds unit.
Now, both of these 36 wires meet up with an orange wire with a red trace (71), and this 71 wire goes to the payout relay switches, and finally back to the 30 wire (plain yellow).
I'm convinced that one of your switch contacts is either dirty, or not pushing enough pressure onto its mate switch to give you a good circuit.  Or at least it is an intermittent circuit.
Use your meter to test the coin relay switch 36 to 71 wire, and also meter the odds unit switch 36 to 71 wire.
I'm betting the coin relay switch is not contacting firmly enough.... If so, bend it to put more pressure on it.
So anyway, there are only 4 switches to check.  Use your meter and also your eye to make sure you see those switches move when they contact.
And finally, if they check out ok, then you can go the the correct pin on your Beau plug, and with pliers very gently give a little bit of a twist to the male pin that you suspect is not contacting.  That should give better connection, but please don't do that until you have ohmed out all your switches. Messing around with beau plugs without needing to may cause more problems than when you started.

Please don't mess with the Beau plugs.
Try all the things in my last post, and then, ONLY if needed, twist the male pins on your Plugs to get better contact.
I have replaced many beau plugs, and MOST of the problems with them have been due to people dicking around with them.
You can ohm them out point to point, you don't need to weaken the integrity of the harness by fussing with them.
Please note, I will not respond until you have checked out those 4 switches as I suggested.
Love and kisses, but I cannot help until I know you have tested them.
If anything about that is unclear, PM me.

Absolutely will do!!! I will refrain from posting until my assignment is done.

Good thing, I was ready to take away a Karma Storm point.  LOL.

 :280-

I just wrote a huge paragraph of info and it ALL disappeared! I think my pictures were too  big. I pressed refresh and everything I wrote vanished!
I'll try again but it's going to be abbreviated. Please don't "dekarmafy" me!!!  :37-
I traced the red/black wire to the where it goes in the reel assembly. Checked that switch which was below reel #1. That split into the two wires and one went back to the plug and off the the hopper. I couldn't, for the life of me, find the other one. I'm getting sleepy...maybe that's why.
At the hopper, that wire went up the what I assume is the coin payout relay. This wire was yellow with black tracer. I started checking that switch and found one part that not making full contact...as if there was a small resistor in there. After multiple cleanings and a little bending, it made full contact.
I needed to stop for the night so I just put it all back together. As of now, the COIN ACCEPTED, INSERT COIN, and WINNER PAID lights are all working as they should. Here's some pictures of where I was cleaning.  
I'll be back in the morning!
:149- :149- :149-

Nice pics!
I think it's important to say that when you are tracing continuity from a light on the door back into the machine, that you MUST REMOVE the bulb from the socket that you are testing. 
As we PM'd earlier, I had forgotten to tell you that very important point, and then because of that you wasted a lot of your time chasing circuits around your Beau plugs.  You were getting feedback through the bulb element and through other circuits in the machine, so you were unable to accurately trace the proper circuit.
Again, I apologize, and hope that anyone else who traces 6v lights remembers this.
Do not try tracing a 6V circuit, with the bulb still in the socket.
No no no.
@shortrackskater, make sure that switch you adjusted opens when it should, and is not staying closed when it's supposed to be open. 
Actually I don't think that's the right switch (should be a NC one), but since you cleaned it, and the lights work, well, that works for me.  If the problem comes up again, we'll go at it again.
Nice work.

I know one thing I could do...just to see...let me know though before I blow up anything!
What if I take the hopper back out and temporarily insulate that switch??? That way I would know exactly what it does. I did notice that the contact points seemed rough...as if there may have been some arcing at one time. My contact cleaner/heavy brown paper wasn't enough so I used 600 sandpaper...very lightly!  I know not to do that on the wipers due to their shape. Hope that was okay here. It was the only thing that got the contact to make contact. I sprayed a little bit of my contact cleaner back on that area. I think it adds a coating as well.

Now I'm back to the payout issue again. It seems to be right on for the single through three coin payouts. At higher payouts it pays out one or more coins as the award amount increases.

Rather than sandpaper, try to find a small piece of very thin flexible metal, and you can use that as it will not wear any of the button off the switch.  Put the piece in and gently squeeze the switch closed, and then buff it just a bit.
Also, you can put a small piece of matchbook paper in between closed switches to see how that affects your circuitry.  Just for kicks.
Let me ponder your high pay one coin overpays for a bit.  Perhaps someone can jump in here with suggestions?  Are all your 100 teeth on the paygear good?

Okay I will refrain from the sandpaper...it was very fine though...like what you'd colorsand a car with. I DO have a cheap feeler guage set and those are very flexible ...I'll try that next time. The teeth in my gear all look good. I may mess with that spring again and try one more or less wind. I'm definitely not getting erratic pays anymore, which is good.

UPDATE: I stuck some business card paper in that switch and saw NO change! The lights all worked! So much for my idea. Now it won't "break."

Great idea! A feeler gauge should work just fine.  It will burnish rather than filing your points.  Most excellent suggestion!!! Thank you.
Try 1/4 less turns on your spring to see if that helps with overpay.
Business cards in the switches work really well to see what affects the machine, and how.  Fun to play with, but be cautious as you don't want to leave any coils or solenoids on for too long a time. They'll melt.
+1

Quick question. Is it okay to pull the hopper and reel assy with power on? I always power OFF just to be safe. Maybe that was a dumb question!

I do.  It's not like you have any electronics in there to fry.  No worry with EMP on these machines....
I've never had a problem with Hot plugging.

I'm going to go back to the beginning of this thread before I ask any more questions now since I haven't checked some of the last advice you gave me back in May. I just hope my lights stay on...in my slot machine I mean; the ones in my head are already out!
 :72-

I was reading my Bally book on the proper positioning of the printed circuit disk on the hopper of my 809...mine was out slightly but I messed with it earlier in my first posts. I adjusted it according the the setting in the book.
The machine was still making weird payouts...(my coin accept, insert coin, etc all working fine now)
I took the hopper back out, dumped the coins out to inspect the bowl and found a, or maybe THE problem. There's a pin MISSING on the metal disk.
AND, I don't know why I never mentioned this before. I noticed it but didn't think anything of it: the hopper was sounding "not smooth" during payouts. I just thought that was how it was normally but now I realize that was the sound of it "missing" a coin.
Whether this is the problem or not, I think it's a problem nevertheless.
I assume I should replace this? Can I just stick a pin in there?
I added a picture. You probably need to click it on to see better. It's the hole at 12 o'clock, where a pin should be!

I don't think that's your problem, but I could be wrong, but don't think so.  As you can see by the wear of the pattern of the nickels, that the pinwheel has been off for a long time.
However, looking at your photo you might want to check your scavenger assembly, which is that sharp blade that pulls in during payouts.  If it is not working right, that may allow for overpays.  This device is the precursor to the hopper motor brake which also prevented overpays, but was not yet installed on our older machines. It it's sloppy, it may allow an extra coin out.
The scavenger would lose power, flip open, and knock off any extra coins trying to get out.  The pinwheel has a lot of inertia, and tends to keep spinning after pay is over, so the scavenger prevented any extra coins going out.

It looks okay to me, but hard to check in operation...
I did notice, watching a payout...there's a pretty blue spark at the switch set, the one nearest where the coins exit the bowl, on the hopper.

Okay after months of being covered in the garage, I decided to work on my 809 again, especially after the EASE of getting my newest 742 up and running so quickly.
So I power it on, and we're back to all the same old intermittent problems...coin accept stops lighting, insert coin stops...then all goes back on. Checked EVERYTHING from previous posts...the machine looks BRAND NEW inside.
Then, as usual, everything starts working again and the pay outs are erratic again.
But as I start to tackle that again, now the hopper won't activate for any payout. I get a "click" and nothing happens.
So, for now, my one and only question is.
1. Is my 809 hopper interchangeable with the 742 or with my "big" EM, the 1114?

BUMP
 :99- :99- :99- :99-

I'd be cautious swapping hoppers.  Check the plug wire colors, and if they match, well, I wouldn't anyway....
I suppose the worst thing is you'd pop a fuse, but still, I wouldn't....
AFA payouts, is the payboard resetting?

It pays each time...it's just off by a few plus or minus. I tried everything you told me before ( I think!)... I know I'm not stupid (I think?) and this machine just baffles me with the intermittent-ness of payouts.  :37-
Can I bring it over sometime?  I'm not too far! Maybe 10 hours?  :88-
I'll not swap hoppers....I don't want to cause any additional problems.

Don't have time to go over all the posts here, but have you checked for shorts?
Hang in there, you'll get it..., we know you're not stupid.
Do your pay fingers end up in the right spot after the payouts?  E.G. just off the 2 pay, 5 pay etc.?
Sure, bring it over.

Okay ... four months have passed. I nearly gave up. Put this machine on Craigslist since the hopper completely crapped out.
However...a very nice man - Richard (he's here but forgot his user name  :25-) came by to look at it and ended up spending a good hour or so and figured out my hopper problem. It was just the spring on the relay, which had fallen off! I've had that problem on a different EM but just was so frustrated that I didn't look on this one! I wish there was another book or article or video that explained the theory of operation in a more "simple" way. I've figured out a lot of problems with various slots now but there's something in my brain that just won't click working on EM's and I know there must be a way in to my head to understand this better...I need some kind of "revelation!"  :72-
So, my machine is still on CL, higher price! I may pull the ad off and keep it though. In the meantime, I'm back to the coin over and underpays that occur erratically. But before I snivel and moan and beg for more help from OldReno, I'll go back and re-read this entire thread!

i have no experience of 3 coin machines
but have had problems with payouts on other nachines being
hopper board slightly out of position (took an age to get it right)
board fingers not aligning correctly
incorrect tension on large spring on back of payboard (runaway on pays)
incorrectly adjusted coin arm on hopper as the coins went under it was only counting some of them
missing couple of teeth on plastic wheel on payout board

none of this will be of any help but thought the post colud do with a reply :89-

Thanks Mark! Glad someone is out here! This forum is very quiet lately...I appreciate the response. I'm going to check those things and backtrack to everything else in this thread as well.  :3-

 :259-