Print Page - Bally 742 fuse blowing problem

I could really use some help here. I have a Bally 742 single coin machine. It had always worked fine. I took the reels out to lube the 3rd reel and shortly afterwards it stopped accepting coins. I jumped the micro switch and still nothing. Then upon inspection I saw that the center 3amp fuse behind the hopper had blown. I replaced the fuse and it imediately blew again. I could use some hints as to what kinds of things cause this fuse to blow.

Thank you in advance....Randy

Thanks for the link. That's very good reading there, so now I know that the fuse blows when I put the reels in so I evidently did something when I had the reels out to create a short. I just can't see anything that looks different. If you had a fuse blow when plugging in the reels, where would you look? Could the short still be on the door?
Randy

I'd look at the coin relay stack of switches, and your 'c' switches to see if they are touching case. Use your VOM on ohms to check all your switches. Clip one lead to case, and then test them all.
Also do the same test on your door. Check all lights (not the 120V fluorescents) and coils on there.
And, the #1 door short problem, check behind your coin acceptor to see if there is a quarter shorting across your coin lockout coil.
You're doing this with power down, yes...?

Yes, powered down. I've gotten a few 120's in my day....

So let me see if I understand, you say that if there is a short the meter will read zero ohms? Because I have gotten no meter movement from anything on that door (except the door itself so I know the meter works). The same for the handle release coil, no reading. The lockout coil behind the coin acceptor looks rough but I removed the lockout lever many years ago to prevent the buzzing from it. I also get no reading from that.

The reel mech switches are well away from the case and I see nothing else touching. Do I check the reel mech switches the same way when it's out of the case? Sorry my knowledge is limited. I have a lot of machines but I have never run into a short before. I wish you were my next door neighbor!

Randy

Well, you are my neighbor. Yes, check your reel mech on ohms out of the case. Clip one lead to the metal, and then check all your switches and coils. You are blowing your fuse because of a short. Somewhere. All circuits should be isolated from case.
Check your female beau plugs on the reel mech case side to be sure that one of them hasn't been pushed out to short against the cabinet. You can do this with your VOM and a paperclip on one lead to check each pin, and clip the other lead onto case.
I love shorts.

The plug wires leading to the door have no reading. The black wire on the plug that leads to the case reads 0 ohms. It leads to the ballasts for the fluorescent lights in the case. Maybe this is normal.

I rechecked the reel mech and the beau plug in the case, the hopper again. I don't know where else to look. I'm afraid I don't like shorts as much as you..lol

Yes, I've checked ohms with power on, too. And have replaced a few fuses on my VOM, good thing they're fused....
I wouldn't worry too much about your fluorescents... Look at your reel mech plugs on the case side, and see if any of them appear to be pushed back and shorting to case. You can also ohm them.
Concentrate on the reel mech, since that appears to be the problem area.

I agree. I checked the mech plug on the case front and back. Everything is secure and I tested every plug hole as well. I also put an insulator between the plug and the back of the case and between the case and the payout reel boards. This way nothing can touch the back of the case. Fuse still blew. With and without the the hopper in.

I took the hopper out and checked the beau plug from underneath with the reel mech in the machine and verything checked out fine. I don't see anything touching the case visually either.

I know shorts aren't very exciting but the Superbowl is over and I'm back to my Bally. Went over the reel mech again, everything seemed fine.

I unplugged the door and put the reel mech back in and the fuse didn't blow. So assuming problem is in the door I checked everything again. I think it may be the lockout coil. It's burned looking and when I try to jump it it does not activate. Will this cause a short? I removed the flapper piece years ago to stop the constant buzzing from it. Maybe it finally just burned itself out. I'll have to replace it although it really isn't needed. Can it be bypassed to see if the fuse blows?

Sure, you can just cut one of the wires, and then tape it up. Should not affect machine operation, and it might even make that short go away.
If you cut the orange wire(s) make sure you crimp or solder them together, other wise you may lose some of your 50V. Just cap off the other non-orange wire so it doesn't touch anything.

Done! Machine works perfectly! I can't thank you enough for your help. And what I have learned is invaluable. I am going to donate to this site because I have another machine, a 937 twin lightning, that has been non-op for several years. Maybe I can get it running too.

My 742a in the picture is on the right....

Thanks again
Randy

Okay, before I leave this machine (742a) I have two lighting problems I'd like to ask about. The 'insert coin' and the 'coin accepted' lights were jumped together when I acquired this machine many years ago. I am trying to follow the schematic but I don't think the color codes match too well. I believe the wire to the 'coin accepted' light comes from the coin relay switch. Where is this witch?

Secondly, the winner paid lamp is wired to the the lamp above it so they are both always on. There is a wire that lead to nothing, so I clipped it to the 'coin accepted' lamp to see if that was where it belonged, but it lit only during a payout and only while the hopper was engaged. So if this is the 'winner paid' wire, was this normal on older machines? On my other Ballys, the winner paid light stays on until the next handle pull. There isn't a zero stop with eraser head thing on the hopper. You can see the green with black tracer wire in the foreground of the picture.

Perhaps someone with a 742 can help with how this lighting was originally.

Thanks again
Randy

If my foggy memory is correct, the insert and coin accept lights should go to your coin relay assembly, which is the latching relay on the back lower left of your reel mech. You can tell by tracing the wire colors, they should stay the same. The winner paid light should be controlled by a pawl and switch at the back inside of your payout relay board. Again, check the wire colors. This should be a single switch with two leaves that stand upright. Us your ohm-meter if you get lost. Hope that helps.

The 'coin relay' switch was clearly labeled on the mech, so your memory is just fine. The wire to the coin accepted light is an open switch at rest. This functions fine. The 'insert coin' light I would assume is a closed switch at rest and opens when a coin is inserted (this is single coin). Trouble is that the only two closed switches on the relay, will light the insert coin light, but leaves it lit at rest too. Since I have no wire to the 'insert coin' light at all, I don't know where it should be coming from. Perhaps someone can trace their wire.

As far as the 'winner paid' wire, it leads to the payout relay on the hopper. Perhaps it is just supposed to only light during payout, unless someone with a 742 tells me their machine is different.

It's a couple of pieces of metal, one side looks kind of like a hook, and the other side latches into it. It is released once the first coin goes out of the hopper, and it is reset when the payboard reset coil pulls in to reset the hopper. You probably have to drop down your payboard to see it well. It should be attached the the reset coil linkage. Which I had a pic.
And again, make sure all your switches on the coin relay do something, either open or close somewhere. Look at the color of your coin accepted light on the door, and see if you can find it on the coin relay switches.

That's the problem, there isn't a wire attached to the 'insert coin' light (just the common). So I have been using a jump wire to see which open switch, closes when coin is inserted and opens when the coil resets at the end of the spin to make the light go on then off. The only switch that did that went to the coin lockout solenoid, thats where my short was so I had taped that wire off. Maybe I should just run that wire to the coin accepted light and call it a day! Maybe a newer coin assembly was added later and it didn't originally have a lockout solenoid.....All the wires seem accounted for.

I'm sure getting an education here....

I haven't looked at the hopper yet this morning.

Well, be careful you measure the voltages before you run the wire. The coils use 50V, and the lights use 6V. If that wire is running 6V, then I'd say go for it.
If you have the time and energy you might want to trace and map-out those wires from the coin relay, and see where they all go. In theory you have one from the coin accepted (missing or taped up) to the coin relay switches, normally open.
You can also check functions on the machine by putting a piece of paper or matchbook in between switches to insulate them and then record how that affects the machine. How many switches do you have total on the coin relay?

Four switches. I'd have to trace all eight wires? I like your idea about just testing the function of each switch better. I jumped every wire top and bottom to the 'insert coin' light and the only one that made it go on and off when it should was the yellow/red tracer wire on the 3rd switch. It appears to transend two switches. Actually, maybe there are 5 switches. That switch on the very top out of camera view is open at rest. So the yellow/red tracer wire is connected to at 3rd switch, closed and the 4th switch, open.

I'm ready to give up. The machine works, the light is just a pesky problem. How do I safely check the voltage to the coin lockout wire that is currently taped off?

Hi, I see you already posted while I was writing, but thought I would include this to help you track out your circuits ---

Here are some of the things I think you have on your coin relay stack. You should have a switch (NC) from the door coin switch (downstroke side). The other side of this switch should go to your coin relay coil. This switch shuts off the coin relay coil after it trips so it doesn't burn up. You should also have another set of switches (NO) going from some circuit (perhaps the other side of the coin in switch-upstroke??) to the handle release coil. This NO switch completes circuit to release handle after and only after the coin relay trips off. Keeps you from getting constant free handle.
You should also have another set of switches, one (NC) that lights the insert coin light, along with a center leaf that makes to your (NO) coin accepted light. This shold be a 3 piece switch, the center leaf is power. The closed side is insert light, the open side is accepted light.
You may also have a set that turns off the coin lockout coil (50v) behind the coin acceptor, but you said you taped it off.
If you have the energy you can trace these out, since I've given you some idea of where they (might) go....
I think there should be the following circuits:
1. Safety circuit to turn off the coin relay coil.(NC)
2. Circuit to activate handle release coil.(NO)
3. Circuit to turn on and off the coin accept and insert coin lights. ( 2way)
4. Perhaps a circuit to turn off the coin lockout coil.(NC)

It appears your 3rd switch, which lites the light, is the right one. One side is NC (insert coin), and the other side (NO) should run your coin accepted. I can't tell how they're wired from your photo, but I bet someone messed with the wiring of it. That's the one you need to track back from the door, through the plug and into that switch. Or work backward from the switch to the door, probably a better idea. Anyway, sounds like you're doing ok so far. It all depends on how 'pristine' you want to make your machine. If the light is no worry, then don't bother, and put it away for a future project.

The way you put it sure makes sense but I know for sure that the uppper yellow wire with black tracer on the first switch (left) goes to the coin accepted light. It doesn't look tampered with because the lttle plastic cover is still there. In any solder work afterwards those seem to be missing.

So on the bottom of the third switch is the wire that goes to the coin lockout solenoid (this appears to be after work) and the top wire I haven't been able to trace, but it doesn't go to the door. I think that the wire for the insert coin light was used for the coin lockout instead of running a new one for whatever reason. Maybe that's why it bridges the 1st and 2nd leafs on the bottom of the third switch.

How do I check the voltage of that wire?

Since you already removed one wire from the coin lockout coil on the door, take your VOM on AC volts, and touch one lead to the end of your cut wire, and the other lead to the other wire still soldered onto the coil. If it reads 50V, then it belongs on the coil, however, if you are fortunate and it reads 6V, then you might want to attach it to your insert coin light and see what happens.
Just make sure that wire is not a solid orange one, which is the 50V feed.
If you can, trace out that other wire the top wire to see what it's all about.
Good work so far....
Actually, never mind the above suggestions, that even confused me....
Your working voltages from the transformer are the Blue (6V), the Orange (50V), and the yellow wire, which is common to both circuits.
All 6V lights, and 50V coils use the yellow wire, you could call it the return if you like. In order to work there must be a complete circuit back to the yellow wire. I'd clip onto the yellow wire (probably on your coin in switch), and then start checking voltages on the door. Be sure you don't mess around with the solid white and solid black wires which may be 120V for your fluorescent lights.
I sure don't know what they did with your light circuits, but it is a mystery.

It's 50 volts. But don't the wires on the switch just open and close circuits? The 50 volts is coming from the orange wire. When I use the yellow and the bottom wire I get no reading. So if I run the wire to the light, doesn't it take on as 6 volt and just open and close the circuit? Or is there 50 volt and 6 volt in the stack of switches?

You can have all 3 voltages in a stack if you want. Yes.
But they all work independently. And they need to be insulated from each other.
Generally all 50V circuits terminate onto the orange wire.
The 6V lights, bell, end in a solid blue wire. Both coming from the transformer.
The 120V circuits do not come through the transformer, they take off before. I've found them mostly to be solid white or solid black wires. Any solid wire like that is probably connected to power supply source than rather through switched circuits, I believe.
No circuits should touch to case (when reading meter on ohms) except for your ground connection from your line in from the wall. If I have a short, I power it down and check the machine with my ohm-meter until I fix or find the short.
Chasing circuits are a lot of fun, and finding shorts is especially entertaining.
Good on you.

Yeah, I saw the flaw in my logic afterwards. If a switch opens and closes a 50 volt circuit, then its 50 volts in and out.

The thing about the 'insert coin' light is that if they were on the same switch, the triple one for example, then the instant the insert coin light goes out, the 'coin accepted' light comes on. Then on the spin, the 'coin accepted' light goes out and the 'insert coin' comes back on during the spin. On my other machines, the 'coin accepted' light does goes out (after start of spin) but the 'insert coin' light doesn't come back on until the end of the reel spin. So perhaps it's switched on the other side of the reel mech. Every wire on the stack seems to go somewhere else so maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

On my other Bally, the 'insert coin' light goes back on at the end of the spin. I'll try to trace that wire, that should give me a clue.

I sure am learning a lot. I really appreciate your help.

Nothing happens to the lights but then again, there isn't a wire to the insert coin light. BUT, the grey with red trace wire is on that switch too. That's the same color as the wire on the top of the 2 way switch that I was going to trace. So maybe it turns off on the coin relay stack, but goes back on in the C stack at the end of the spin.

The top half of that switch (on the C stack) has a solid gray wire coming out of it. I'll have to trace that tomorrow. I can even jump it to the light and see what happens. I'll let you know and I'll get some pictures af both switches.

I'm thinking your solid grey goes to the 3rd reel board to power the pays. But I'd need a schematic to tell for sure. Try ohms check if you find it on the reel board. I believe that C switch keeps the machine from paying during reel spin, and doesn't close until after the 3rd reel indexes. Good job, BTW!

Okay, I took some better pictures. All the wires on the C stack seem to have other purposes. The solid gray or actually darl brown, wire did go to the bottom of the 3rd reel board, then out to, I assume, the plug. I'm gonna trace the coin accepted wire on my other machine, maybe that'll shed some light. I suppose I should have done that a lot sooner.

Nice fix-it posts. I read them all.

In this picture,on the top I think it said A-B-C-D (Left To Right)

I traced the coin accepted wire on my other Bally. Now that I'm done bandaging myself, I can tell you that it's 'insert coin' lights' wire is on the C stack but on a center switch, so thats where it closes to light back up. I don't see the same color wire on the coin relay so I don't know which wire opens the circuit to turn the light off. The top wires on that switch are solid yellow and go to the bottom of the second and third reels. The 742 doesn't have that 3rd switch.....

These pics are better ones from the 742....

I have a schematic from the Mead book. It looks like the Coin insert (18-2 Red/Black tracer) and the coin accepted lamp (38-1 Yellow/Black tracer) are wired to the same switch on the coin relay. That would be the switch on the far left. That is where they are both wired on my machine. The problem is that the red/black wire isn't anywhere on the door.

So I followed that wire (red/black tracer), it leads to the payout relay on the hopper. It's switched with the 48-1 (green/ black tracer) wire which is the same wire on the door that is attached to nothing because what should be the winner paid light is jumped to the general lamp above and is always on. This wire also is the one that lights only during payout if I connect it to a light, it does not stay on until the next pull. So all these wires are related. No insert coin wire and no winner paid lamp.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Hi,
Looks like you're doing a great job tracing stuff out.
I will ponder your last post, however here's my thoughts on your winner paid light.
It should be a stand alone circuit, and logically it should go through the payout relay coil switches. And, it should be through a set of normally closed switches. This is because during payout, you don't want the light to come on, only after payout when the payout relay turns off and the switches go back to closed position. Also it should go through a latching switch which is normally located on the rear inside of your payboard assembly. If you take off the top screw holding your payboard, you can drop it down, and you should see a linkage assembly (which is controlled by your 100 tooth white plastic paygear). When 1st coin is paid out, this linkage should unlatch and close a switch (which pokes up in the back). When the payboard resets on next handle pull, this switch should latch open. this switch is to turn on the winner paid ONLY when the machine has paid.
If you can find this switch and linkage assembly, you should find the two wires you need. One probably from payout relay, and the other should go to the door, and eventually to your winner paid light.
Excellent job so far, I am impressed with your dedication to this problem.
So, anyway, the winner paid circuit is stand-alone, and the insert and coin accept lights work together.
Hope that helps a little bit, and I'll get back to you....

I thought maybe the switch in front of the wiper board, it closes at the start of payout but then the light would go on during pay and stay on. The wires from that switch lead to the board, then a grey/white wire goes to the switch on the other side (top pic). The wire out is the yellow/red wire which goes back to the payout relay. The wire out from that is solid yellow and jumps up to the top switch where the red/black wire is, and that goes to the door.

If I connect the red/black wire on the door to a light, it doesn't just light continually during payout, it flickers on and off very fast. The only switch that does that on the hopper is the switch on the ratchet side of the pay board in the top picture. I think the light was purposely disconnected. Maybe the hopper has been modified. There's writing on it that says "rebuilt 2/26/78"

I really appreciate your help. I am learning an awful lot...

I believe the switches on the right are your arc switches. There's a post somewhere here on those.
It appears you are missing the switch I talked about, but be relieved, I think my modified 742 also is missing that one, and my WP lite also is not right. I don't have time or energy to fix it right now. Too much else to do....
You could in theory run another circuit to your Zero switch, but that's sure a lot of work.
I dunno. Did it ever work right?
Maybe someone can jump in here with ideas, on how these 742's wired the winner paid lights?

Nope, It's always been like this. Well, I guess I'll put it on the back burner unless someone else chimes in or you come up with something on that 'insert coin' light.

Thanks Old Reno, at least we fixed that short! When I move to Reno and we are neighbors, this will be a lot easier! Actually my best friend, that I grew up with, lives in Fernley. I used to go up there in the late 80's and stay downtown. I'd go to the Nevada Club and Harold's and Harrahs and play all the mechanical machines. They used to hand pay jackpots in rolls of nickels! Then they installed hoppers and then they all just disappeared. I eventually bought a Harolds Club machine. It has it's troubles too!

I'll be working on my Bally 'Lucky Twins' soon.

Thanks again....
Randy

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Reel Slots Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Rgull77 on January 26, 2013, 07:06:26 PM

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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Rgull77 on January 26, 2013, 07:06:26 PM

Reel Slots Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Rgull77 on January 26, 2013, 07:06:26 PM