New Life Games Tech Forums

http://ca.yahoo.com/s/871106 (http://ca.yahoo.com/s/871106)

They should have given him the 9 thousand odd dollars for the top award on the glass at least....and avoided the negative publicity...
instead, the  :58- heads gave him nothing....idiots

I wouldn't have taken the 9k had they offered it. That would be admitting that the prize wasn't 42 million, and acceptance of the 9k could be legally shown to be an agreement between the casino and the patron as to the amount of the win. He's better off suing.

odds of top jackpot contain 60 zeros?  :37-

There are a number of mis representations in that report.
60 x 0's is one of them.

Another is that no jackpot in North America is worth 42mm. The megabucks has easily gotten up over that amount and progressives in general are much higher than the top award.

Oh, he won the progressive? I thought he just won the top award on a machine....LAWSUIT!

This sounds like another case of the machine was set up wrong. Video slot set up to be a progressive although it's not.

I don't know that he did hit the progressive.
I am sure the 9K is the NON-Progressive amount
but it was the casinos statement that NO jackpot is worth 42mm

I am sure it had to be a misconfigured machine displaying a progressive amount....otherwise how else would it come up with 42mm ?

There is a big difference between human error in the configuration and a malfunction......

yeah...the "malfunction that voids all plays and pays" was the casino employee who configured it...
there probably was NOT a malfunction of the machine or progressive system.
 
 With that in mind, is it not true that that progressives in most casinos are configured and programmed
by (for example)  IGT, Williams, or Bally workers?
The reason I ask is because I thought that these companies get a cut of the progressive pie?
So they would want to have their own workers set up and configure the progressives along with a casino employee?

The only progressives set up by gaming manufacture employees are WAP's like Wheel of Fortune, Megabucks, etc.... ie. all leased games that have progressives.

Georgian downs is about 45 minutes from my house.  I have had machines that came from there before, only they worked great.
Thanks for the info,
Wayne

The winner's lawyer's only have to prove that the "malfunction" was NOT the machine.

Doesn't the disclaimer say this in fact: "All machine mulfunctions voids all pays and plays",
not human error....or does that disclaimer cover "Human errors"?

Now that's just plain MESSED UP! :81- :30-

I'm pretty sure it says Malfunction voids all pays and plays, I'll have to check downstairs to be sure.

W

If the machine was set up wrong it's considered a machine malfunction

yes, IGT  & WMS say MALFUNCTION VOIDS ALL PAYS AND PLAYS, BALLY SAYS MALFUNCTION VOIDS ALL PLAYS AND PAYS
the Williams machine says it in French also.

okay,
If this happened to you...purely hypothetical...how would you like your lawyer to present your case?

I would hope they bring the integrity of the OLG and the Casinos run by them into this.  They will likely settle for a lesser amount which will also be undisclosed, my guess would be a million Canadian dollars (approx $769000 U.S.)
If the machine was a progressive, they sometimes have a limit posted, I wonder if this one had it posted.

Thanks,
Wayne

I think the word "Malfunction" covers most bases I'm afraid  :8- ...My guess is that poor sucker will not get a dime. :60-

A bit of case law would seem to be indicated here. I'm not a lawyer but I know a bit of law.

The "malfunction" thing dates back to a case in Nevada in the 1970s, where one of the machines had some sort of failure and came to rest on a jackpot - actually just off the line, but more on than off. I believe it was a Bally EM where the mechanism hung up and the reels coasted to a stop. The casino denied, the player sued, and a Nevada court ruled that if it said on the glass that 7777 pays $X and the casino accepted a player's money, this constituted a binding contract between the casino and the player, and if the machine stopped on 7777 - for any reason - this fulfilled the terms of the contract and they were legally obliged to pay up, which they did. The disclaimer signs hurriedly appeared after that. The "malfunction" defense has been upheld ever since in Nevada, although that's not a real test, since Nevada judges know who their campaign contributors are. More specifically, in the case of the Ontario Lottery, the contract between the player and the casino can only be for the maximum amount shown on the glass, or on the payout screen if that's all it has, before the player inserts money for the winning game. So unless the machine was displaying $42 million somewhere on its glass or on an associated display before the guy started his last game, he hasn't got a contract and he hasn't got a case.

This would be different than if a WAP failed while it was actually showing the top jackpot amount. The case I best remember about this happened in one of the New Mexico or Arizona casinos about 12 years ago, and it was IGT that denied the payment, not the casino. I think it was a Wheel of Fortune and the amount was about $300k. The player sued and the casino eventually paid him out of court, seeing it as their responsibility, although IGT had pocketed the jackpot money. Sadly, the slot manager committed suicide.

So, with this case work in mind, I'd like to retract my earlier statement and bet that the player gets the 9K instead of the progressive.
Since, the casinos "intention" for the highest award for that particular machine was deemed to be about 9K?

Isn't is amazing how badly supposedly professional journalists can screw up the facts? 60 zeros? That's a number larger than the estimate of the number of known stars in the universe squared (The number is estimated to be about 7x10²², but perhaps as few as 1x10²² and as much as 1x10²⁴). In fact, it's closer to the number of known stars in the universe CUBED (although not quite. 7E22³ is about 343 million times larger than 1E60, or 3.43x10⁶⁸).

Even the longest long-shot that I know of in any casino -- hitting 20 out of 20 in Keno (yes they have such a ticket, and usually charge a $5 minimum to play it!) would have only 18 zeros in it if only the most significant digit were used: 4E18 (3.535x10¹⁸), or 3.54 pentillion to 1. The line forms on the right to buy tickets.

To get an idea of how large these numbers are, the earth is estimated to be about 4.55 billion years old. If we use 365.25 as an approximation of the number of days in a year, there have been 1.436x10¹⁷ seconds in that time. If you played one game of keno every single second since the earth was formed, you would have had only a 1 in 24 chance of hitting the darned thing in all this time -- and that's a number with only 18 zeros after it.

I think that was Op-Bell is saying is that the player probably won't be able to recover more than the highest amount that was displayed to him just prior to placing the wager, including any progressive signage, messages displayed by the machine, and award glass.

My question is, how does this lawyer, or the patron, for that matter, lay a foundation in the first place? What I mean is, what would happen if the unfortunate player had no camera (cell phone) and couldn't get the casino to bring in gaming officials or the police at the time of the incident to take an official report? After all, they stonewalled him and gave him buffet comps. What does an individual do when on private property and facing an uncooperative management? I'm not necessarily speaking of this particular incident, but just in general.

I would think that for such a large jackpot, there would be plenty of witnesses rubbernecking. I only saw one once, $1 million on Dollar WoF at the Orleans, but there was a large crowd gathered around.

It is all taped by the eye in the sky, especially after the jackpot hit, the camera would be on it. I'm sure the OLG kept a copy of the tape.

W

Perhaps in this case, but I could see a situation where it would be in the casino's best interest to delete -- er, ah, misplace -- the tape.


True, but getting them to give you their names and addresses and agree to stand up for you in court is quite a different matter. Rubberneckers suddenly would be looking at their shoes and the buffet line when you start asking for witnesses..

How do you figure?  The machine didn't malfunction -- it did exactly as it was programmed to do.  At the "M" casino that recently opened in Vegas, a bank of $0.25 video poker machines that were supposed to have a progressive jackpot starting at $1,000 were inadvertently programmed to have the base jackpot be $10,000.  Someone hit the Royal and the casino payed up -- the machine didn't malfunction, the person who programmed it screwed up.  (Source (http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=314))



Thank you for the interesting history on the "malfunction voids all pays and plays" (not quoted here, but interesting).

How would this be applied with the video slots of today (which it sounds like this machine was)?  I ask because a similar situation happened a while back with a Mystical Mermaids game (IGT) where the machine claimed the guy won over $1 Million.  That's obviously higher than the top award on a $0.05 machine, but it was within the realm of possibility due to free spin bonuses on the machine which could be re-triggered.  In fact, the game limits to something like 600 free spins and in theory (although not probable by a long shot), the top award could have been hit in each of the 600 free spins, causing a HUGE payday.  Even if the top award on the game in question was $9k, couldn't that be hit multiple times (or perhaps hundreds of times) in a free spin bonus?

For what it's worth, I don't think that this guy had a $43 Million spin on a video slot machine -- it seems to me that something was mis-programmed to cause the handpay message to appear (perhaps a linked slot-club bonusing system or something?).  Based on the one video report we've seen, however, I don't think there are nearly enough facts (on either side) to form a solid opinion on the matter.

Well I'm not a lawyer nor a judge, so I can only speculate. But I'd ask, on what legal basis does the casino have to pay the player at all? The 1970s case ruled it was on the basis of contract. The casino makes an offer through the payout legend on the machine, the player accepts the offer by playing money, and the contract is established by the game (on behalf of the casino) accepting it. The contract, then, must be limited to the amount displayed on the game before the player hits start. I notice that the multi-coin, multi-lines invariably have some such wording as "Win up to 25,000 credits" on the glass, so if the machine went haywire and gave an infinite number of free spins, the casino's liability would be limited by that maximum offer.

As for the "sixty zeros", I can only imagine some excited newsroom bunny misheard the lottery spokesman say "sixteen million", since almost all GLI-written regulations specify the maximum long odds can't be higher than 16.7 million to 1 (2^24).

It's my understanding it wasn't a progressive machine, so being programmed as a progressive machine was a malfunction.. and again that was a Las Vegas casino that just opened and they didn't want bad press. Lotteries seem to thrive on the bad press.

From a newspaper near there, my guess is the Top award was progressive and had the progressive credit to amount being credited at dollars instead of cents, (this has happened in the midwest a few times) on a video slot with internal progressive it is very easy to hit the wrong icon, but my problem is how can this guy say this caused his back to hurt ?


On Tuesday, Kusznirewicz launched a $42.9 million lawsuit against the Ontario Gaming and Lottery Corporation (OLG). In addition to his loss of winnings, he is also seeking $3 million in damages for the nightmares and back problems he has experienced since the Dec. 8 visit to the casino in Innisfil, Ont., about an hour north of Toronto.

"I spent $60 on the machine. Then the supervisor tells me 'We're not going to pay you because the machine is broken,'" he said. "I get nothing. If you win some money, and they give you nothing, you need a lawyer."

Kusznirewicz said casino staff took photos of the machine and then turned it off. He said he was never told what exactly was wrong with the machine.

The Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation said that the machine Kusznirewicz was playing had a "confirmed malfunction."

The organization said that there was an error message that had been displayed prior to the winning. Kusznirewicz and his wife deny that they ever saw the message.

The maximum payout of the Buccaneer slot machine, which accepts two cents per play, is $9,025.

"The $42 million figure is not a possible award given this machine's configuration and pay table settings," the statement said. "All OLG slot machines have a disclaimer indicating 'malfunctions void all pays and plays.'"

The corporation said no further comments will be made about the lawsuit because it is now before the courts. The province's Alcohol and Gaming Commission has launched an investigation into the incident.

Kusznirewicz said Wednesday he will continue to wait for his prayers to be answered.

"With the money I will support lots of people, my children, my grandchildren, my family," he said. "I want to get something. Right now, I have nothing."

I cannot stress the fact enough that the word "malfunction" itself - covers a lot a bases...including human error.

However, I too, am very interested in seeing how this all turns out in the courts.

At the end of the day, if it goes to a jury, the definition of "malfunction" might end up having more to do with the sympathies or lack thereof of the jurists than the minutiae of the law, so I won't be surprised to hear that they settled out of court for an "undisclosed" amount. Of course, what do I know? :25-

Wouldn''t that be a better win for him depending on the amount? Isn't a jury awardment or a settlement from a lawsuit also tax free, thereby saving him from a large chunk being grabbed by the government? Or is that just for personal injury cases?

 Dan (tacman)

Two things to consider here...I agree it would be nice to win a settlement, but the lawyers would take a huge chunk.
As for personal injury cases, I could slip on a newly waxed floor and see what happens? :96-
Guess that's why most casinos have carpeted floors... :72-

All casino and lottery winnings in Canada are tax free.
42mm is 42mm, only interest earned on the money put into the bank is taxed.

You can tax shelter some of your money. You can put up to 18% of your earned income into a RRSP (Registered Retirement Savings Program).
This then lowers your taxable income. Of course you pay tax when you take it out. Theoretically when you retire you are in a lower tax bracket.

The other savings vehicle we have here is a TFSA (Tax Free Savings Account). You can put up to 5000 per year into this, and any earnings is tax free.
There is also no tax charged when you withdraw the money.  At current interest and tax rates..... You put 5K away for a year at 2% you would earn $100.
Assuming this interest then gets  gets taxed at 33% you have saved $33.00 for having locked up your money WOO HOO......