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Title: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: 5 ACES on March 21, 2009, 07:10:03 PM I'm sure someone has noticed this, especially on an S+ game. Your playing an S+ machine and after about 99-100 spins, you notice some type of pause within the game. All of the button lights go off for about 2-3 seconds, you can't spin or add credits and it is though the game is switching modes or something, then the button lights come back on and you can resume play. Why does it do that? I have had numerous people ask me that question and have no idea why.
Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: theDotster on March 21, 2009, 07:23:58 PM It is the machine writing some accounting information into an eprom. The update speeds on the chips are not very quick so you get to see the pause as it happens. It is every 100 spins and does it on most machines, GameKings as well.
Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: 5 ACES on March 21, 2009, 07:36:04 PM It is the machine writing some accounting information into an eprom. The update speeds on the chips are not very quick so you get to see the pause as it happens. It is every 100 spins and does it on most machines, GameKings as well. Thank You!! Now I know!! Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: cfh on March 21, 2009, 10:28:08 PM it is also calculating the next 100 spins at the same time.
so on an S+, if you "give the game up" and someone walks up and wins on the next pull, that was really YOUR pull! this is different than the newer s2000 games where everything is done "on the fly". Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: StatFreak on March 21, 2009, 11:40:34 PM it is also calculating the next 100 spins at the same time. so on an S+, if you "give the game up" and someone walks up and wins on the next pull, that was really YOUR pull! this is different than the newer s2000 games where everything is done "on the fly". cfh, can you back that statement up with hard facts? Everything we've learned about the S+ indicates that the RNG runs full-time while in idle mode and is stopped by PIA (Player Initiated Action), which is in complete opposition to your statement. Have you succeeded in proving otherwise? If so, I'd like to see the proof. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: stayouttadabunker on March 22, 2009, 12:49:22 AM That is amazing and should this be true, CFH - It would change everything I ever known about the RNG of an S+...
As far as I know, the RNG is constantly running until the micro-second either the handle is pulled or the play/max button is hit. The CPU then tell the reels which position they should stop at. The 3 second "pause" at every 100 pulls is for updating the accounting records. It would very interesting for all, to see your copy of the documentation of the CPU calculating the next 100 pulls. I, for one, have never seen anything that allowed the RNG to behave in the way that you describe. If this were true, then slot machines (in this case, the S+) would not be "random"... Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: cfh on March 22, 2009, 09:48:00 AM That's my understanding of the S+, 5550 bally, and the williams 40x.
They all work the same way based on the hardware available during the 1990s. I was told this by a Wms programmer. i will ask again though. maybe i mis-understood him. (All this info came out in the Telneas trial of IGT vs. Wms.) Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: midas on March 22, 2009, 12:44:54 PM The pause happens every time I have a winning streak going on a machine. whether s+, s2000, Game king, etc.
After the pause the winning streak ENDS! I think the pause is to set the machine into a losing cycle. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: tjkeller on March 22, 2009, 02:28:45 PM (All this info came out in the Telneas trial of IGT vs. Wms.) I don't see anything that validates your statement. Am I not looking at the right info??? WMS Gaming v. International Game Technology (http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/fed/opinions/97opinions/97-1307.html) Closest reference I see is: Quote The Telnaes patent discloses a slot machine that is capable of decreasing the probability of winning while maintaining the external appearance of a standard mechanical slot machine. Telnaes, col. 2, lines 10-27. Generally speaking, Telnaes discloses a slot machine in which the reels are electronically-controlled. Id., col. 4, lines 19-21. Each time the machine is played, the control circuitry randomly determines the stop position of each reel and then stops the reels at the randomly determined positions. Id., col. 3, lines 1-4. The reels only serve the function of displaying the randomly chosen result. Id., col. 3, lines 10-12. To decrease the probability of certain symbols appearing, the control circuitry randomly chooses a number from a range greater than the number of stop positions. Id., col. 4, line 53 - col. 5, line 4. The range of numbers is non-uniformly mapped to the stop positions, e.g., a memory based look-up table, that is programmed by either the manufacturer or the operator, may be used to map the range of numbers to stop positions.1 Thus, in a slot machine with 20 stop positions per reel, the control circuitry may use a random number generator to select a number between 1 and 40. The 40 numbers are non-uniformly assigned to correspond to the 20 stop positions on a reel. For example, only one number may be assigned to the symbol "7," while six numbers may be assigned to the "cherry" symbol. This non-uniform mapping of numbers to stop positions allows the probability of stop position combinations, and thus the probability of winning, to be adjusted without altering the configuration of the reels. Id., col. 3, lines 13-16. The odds-manipulating slot machines with physical reels disclosed in the Telnaes patent are referred to as "virtual reel" slot machines. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: stayouttadabunker on March 22, 2009, 03:10:31 PM The pause happens every time I have a winning streak going on a machine. whether s+, s2000, Game king, etc. lol...this of course is pure speculation!...the "pause" is going to happen no matter what streak you're on....winning OR losing.After the pause the winning streak ENDS! I think the pause is to set the machine into a losing cycle. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: uniman on March 22, 2009, 06:22:22 PM I do not believe the next hundred spins are determined at every pause, but I have no proof either.
Universal slot machines do not pause. Reason is, there is no external eprom that they write to. Maybe on the S2000's they could have had a scrooling message during the pause on the blue vacuum display like: "Have a gambling problem? Call 1-800-......" :72- :72- :72- Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: StatFreak on March 22, 2009, 08:05:45 PM I do not believe the next hundred spins are determined at every pause, but I have no proof either. Universal slot machines do not pause. Reason is, there is no external eprom that they write to. Maybe on the S2000's they could have had a scrooling message during the pause on the blue vacuum display like: "Have a gambling problem? Call 1-800-......" :72- :72- :72- They reserve those signs for the bathroom entrances in the far back corners of the casino, and maybe on a small sign somewhere near the cage. I guess they figure that if you've made it to the cage, you've have a better than average day and won't be in need of the sign. Heaven forbid they put it someplace prominent, like at the machines or the tables -- or someplace useful, like the at the exit to the parking lot, where you'll see it as you're leave the casino dead broke and despondent. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: cfh on March 22, 2009, 10:52:08 PM Ok i talked to my williams programmer friend and you guys
were right, i mis-understood what he said. that pause (be it Wms or IGT) is the booking *only* being written to the eeprom. During the lawsuite wms reverse engineered several slot machines to prove their point. but at that time in the lawsuite, the judge was so pissed at wms about the whole situation, this part of wms' defense was never put forward. wms had even gone so far as to get an EM Keeney Red Arrow upright machine from the 1950s and reverse engineered that to help prove their case in the telneas patent case. (the paytable wasn't possible unless Keeney was skewing the odds, since it used 10 symbols but had incredible odds. and sure enough the keeney did use a telneas type thing.) but again, this testimony was not allowed because the judge shut wms down. apparently it had something to do with wms laywers dragging their feet and constantly asking for more time (stalling). judge thought if you get to the same place (long odds), even though you did it differently, you were still violating the patent. this is of course is wrong, but the judge was so pissed at wms that wms could do nothing right. wms was also trying to change the court location from vegas to chicago, and again this pissed off the judge. nothing wms could do was going to win them this case, even though wms frankly was right and should have won. i mean here you had Keeney using a Telneas idea in the 1950s, how did Bally (and then IGT) get that patent anyway? Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: stayouttadabunker on March 23, 2009, 12:28:38 AM There was something in the patent laws that allowed people to "work around existing patents to promote competition to better serve the consumers".
When the district court reconsiders its finding of willful infringement, it should bear in mind that the patent law encourages competitors to design or invent around existing patents. See Westvaco Corp. v. International Paper Co., 991 F.2d 735, 745, 26 USPQ2d 1353, 1361 (Fed. Cir. 1993); see also State Indus., Inc. v. A.O. Smith Corp., 751 F.2d 1226, 1235-36, 224 USPQ 418, 424 (Fed. Cir. 1985) (explaining that designing around existing patents promotes competition to the benefit of consumers). WMS tried to use this and I agree with your friend, the judge was pissed at WMS. Maybe he was on IGT's payroll... :5- It seems that the judge also wouldn't allow a certain Merit machine (Merit Sweet Shawnee) that was using a RNG prior to the Telneas invention up on the stand either. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: tjkeller on March 23, 2009, 02:45:24 AM Thanks for the update cfh. You had us :103-
Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: StatFreak on March 23, 2009, 12:44:13 PM Now that more of this is coming to light, I'm surprised that Williams didn't successfully appeal. They had precedents on their side and with all of their attorneys, they might have been able to show unfair bias on the part of the judge. Water under the slot..
Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: cfh on March 23, 2009, 05:11:51 PM they just decided to go the video slot route.
in the end that was probably the right decision. Title: Re: What Is The 3 Second Pause For? Post by: uniman on March 23, 2009, 07:00:56 PM Here is a page from the current Nevada slot machine reg's. Note that 2.a. states that every possible combination must be available at the initiation of every spin. The law could have been different in the 1980's or 90's, but I believe that is doubtful.
Here is the link to Nevada gaming reg's. Slots are detailed in reg 14. http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs.htm (http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs.htm) |