New Life Games Tech Forums

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Well sorry to hear about your injury and welcome back  :89-

BUT ! :81-

  This has to be the longest post I have ever seen on here and I will have to sober up first then set aside 1 hour to read it then another 5 Hours to try to understand it then another 5 days to try to prove it out....   :25- :5- :5- :5-

  Could you just  :211-

 :72- :72- :72- :97- :97- :97-

Really , Thanks for the in depth explanation!  :3-

K+ to ya Rocket!

Yea ROCKET, I'm sorry to hear about your injury. Nice, VERY NICE information you posted rocket, on the RNG. I loved this post and even printed it and showed it to my Dad. He was always interested about how the RNG worked and this was the best, most informative piece of information on it that I have ever seen. Thanks again rocket!! I hope your knee get's better!!!

Dam that was longgggggg.   Sorry to hear about your accident, sounds like lots of computer time and no stairs.
Did you hit one of the deer when you were putting out the salt tablets ? :97-

Rocket,  I could not even make it thru that post all the way.  Glad you are ok.  I will have to put my reading glasses on later and study it more in depth-- :96-.  K+ for probably one of the top 3 record posts here for length-- :5-.  Take care--B.

 :102-  Wait, what were we discussing again? :127-
It's been an over an hour and fifty wheel scrolls on my mouse since I last came up for air. :5- :72- :72- :72-


Rocket, I'm sorry to hear about your knee. I hope that you're feeling better. :89- :71-

Stat :31-


P.S. Next time, don't use your knee to browse the internet on your computer!!  :81-  :200- :208- :208-
I'm glad that you copied most of that from the web, otherwise you'd be out another week with repetitive stress injuries to your knuckles. :30-

wow...that was like a 2-popcorn movie... :96-

What I liked is that is started to try to explain the weighting of symbols somewhat - to achieve the projected %.
Of course, no where was it mentioned where the RNG is in a slot machine...
it was only described as a "device" invented by Inge Telnaes.
IGT buys it and makes everyone else pay them for using it...
I wonder if the other slot manufacturers were able to come up with their own RNG
for their own machines? :103-

Rocket hope you feel better.  Thanks for the explanation. I didn't get through all of it , but got through enough to get a good Idea what's going on. I'll read the rest later.
Do you know the different between the Inge Telnaes patented RNG and one made  by another slot manufacturer or do they all use the Inge Telnaes patented and pay royalties.
I guess  I'm asking what's so special about the Inge Telnaes patented RNG Generator.
Thanks,
Eric

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So, the Telnaes patent is not a patent for an RNG or PRNG , but for virtual reel stops and the method of mapping them to physical stops on the reels. The RNG (or PRNG)  is only mentioned in the Telnaes patent as the method for selecting what reels stops are chosen to appear when a game is played. RNGs existed before Telnaes patent, and there are several patents for them (both software and hardware), depending on how they are seeded and how they randomize the output.

You can read http://casinogambling.about.com/cs/slots/a/slotreel.htm (http://casinogambling.about.com/cs/slots/a/slotreel.htm) for the low-down on how the Telnaes patent works.

Rocket, there are some contradictions in the articles you posted above in that at least one states slot machines use PRNGs (software RNGS, which is correct) and at least one states slot machines use hardware RNGs (which is incorrect). The fact that slots use PRNGs is why they all start out at the same point, and need to rely on temporal effects (the time a player either hits the button or pulls the arm, or differences in the clock frequencies) to deviate from the same selections, as you and Jay mention. TRhat's why software RNGs are known as Pseudo RNGs, because they can't be truly random.

The information on the way their output is used to pick game outcomes appears to be correct, and is good information for anyone who wants to understand how the theory behind Telnaes and how the casinos can be pretty accurate in estimating just how much of our money thay are going to keep. :14-

K+ for taking the time to search and posting all that, Rocket! :3- :244- :131-  I'll have time to read every word when I retire...      :200- :97- :97-

Thanks for the extra info Brichter.
Eric

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From the articles I've read pot of gold machines in operations in Texas that were seized had paybacks as low as 20% So I don't think that they adhere to any gaming commission standards. Hence the rub...........where I live in PA, the governor suggested legalizing the videopoker machines to that the PGCB could set standards for the min. paybacks to stop the thievery of the populace.............when no regulation is present, that's where the cheating and stealing takes place.

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Having lived here in Texas my entire life, I can tell you that the only legal gambling here is at a few horse tracks, and multitudes of Bingo Parlors
filled mainly with elderly persons.  There are no Casinos here,  :37- which is why Louisiana and Oklahoma,a spend so much money to stop them from
becoming legalized in Texas.  The machines they keep seizing here are generically known as "eight-liners".  These parlors pop up from time to time
supposedly only awarding small prizes, (not cash), but many of them have been busted in sting ops, running them as true gambling joints!  :81-

I would love it if Texas would legalize Casinos here, but then they would probably change the slot ownership laws and tell me I can't have my own machines!  :60-  :60-
 

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Hey Rocket, K+ to ya for trying to keep this thread somewhat on topic.  :244-(that brings u up to a lucky "77")

  I personally find this subject about "THE RANDON NUMBER GENERATOR" quite interesting and also take it pretty seriously  :89- :89- :89-  :79-

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Sorry, I'll take it back...LOL  (just kidding)

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I get the feeling we're in for some startling revelations...   :5- :96-

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Ram clears only help if you do them on the second Friday of the month and after midnight while only using one coin bets all day  :79- :79- :79- :79- :200-

No RAM Clear only helps when you start looking at the statistical data on a particular machine. You know the machine has been in use on the floor for two years and it has a 87.35% chip installed. The current data show the machine is paying at 68%

Now is the time to do a RAM clear before it hits to bring it up to the listed 87.35% over the 3 Mil handle pulls.

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WRONG !!! ... I have also found them to work on any given Saturday night as long as there is indeed a full moon !  :79-

Being new I have to ask. Does the ram clear actually impact the RNG and/or the payback in that way.  Would casinos periodcally do ram clears thru out the casino to keep the machines at the listed payback? It seems when I go to the casino the new machines they have just installed pay out some and keep you playing on 20 bucks for a long time. After a month or so and people being creatures of habit return to the same machine they don;t seem to be paying as well. I have had to do a few ram clears on my Proslot and I am not sure it impacts the machine, it just never seems to hit the 3 big payouts. Only one was hit by my nephew 4 years ago.

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Thanks Rocket.. I always wondered if the casinos around here changed the odds during tourist season and then changed again at  the end of tourist season. But I  do notice that they do swap out machines alot. Seems every month there  are different machines.

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LMAO!! That documentary was about a lady that I know of personally! Some weird shi* let me tell you! It was even on all of the major networks. Small world ROCKET! Small world!! :97-

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LMAO!! You got me laughing so hard I can't quit Rocket! Yes, it definitely makes one want to keep others from knowing where your from and what kind of people live around here! LOL! We have two cat's and it's hard enough to look after them, so could you imagine having 250 cat's, 130 dog's, something like 15 horses, 200 chickens and 50 birds! I'm serious and that lady still insists she did nothing wrong. I won't even get into what the house looked like and how many carcasses the other critters were eating off of. I thought I had seen some bad stuff, but this one took the jackpot! Now find that info on the RNG! (Figured that I had better put that in here so I don't get chewed out for thread hijacking!)  :97-

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Well for what's it worth. I did my first RAM clear on my last kit install, S+. We hit the jackpot within the first three days after doing that. Now I know the game, Haywire, isn't all that hard to hit but it made me wonder if the RAM clear had anything to do with hitting the top prize. Maybe, maybe not but it was super cool nonetheless!

I've seen that a lot, too.  I'm a firm believer that when many casinos put in new games, they often have them set to a "looser" payback percentage to get people hooked on the game, and then later (a couple of weeks to a month) change the chips out for "tighter" payback percentage chips.  I know for a fact that one one bank of "new" machines at the local Native American casino, when the machines were new they were hitting left and right, and then later there was a software change made and the machines weren't nearly as generous. 

The way I could tell there was a software change made was that the upper video screen of the machine originally said, "must be 21 to play" in the fine print.  Where I live, the minimum age to gamble in the casino is 18.  A few weeks later, I observed that the message had changed to "must be 18 to play", and at the same time the frequent hits and bonus frequency changed (for the worse).  A software change had been made, and I believe that it was made to lower the payback after the machine had gotten people 'hooked' on it.

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Generally speaking, the difference between a low percentage chip and a high percentage chip is the number of small to medium wins.  The higher percentage payback chip will have more small and medium wins.  The lower percentage payback chip will have fewer small and medium wins.  The odds of hitting the big jackpots are typically the same whether it's a high payback chip or a low payback chip.


In the case I'm talking about, which I mentioned is at the local Native American casino, there is one bank of Spielo machines that was put in and had the software with the "must be 21" in the fine print.  At the same time a few weeks later when that fine print changed to "must be 18", the frequency of wins/feature bonuses was noticeably decreased.  When they first put them in, you couldn't lose -- everyone playing was hitting bonuses left and right.  I'm not talking about the frequency of jackpots, but the frequency of the smaller hits and feature bonuses.  Also in my case, it's the only bank of Spielo machines at the casino -- they didn't move them around and put in Spielo machines from a different part of the casino.

As far as all the red tape of changing software/chips, the local Native American casino oversees itself.  They have their own gaming commission, and they don't have to report to the state or anyone else.  For what it's worth, I have learned that in Las Vegas the casinos do NOT need to get the gaming commission involved if they wish to change the payback percentage chip in a machine -- they're just required to use approved chips, but they do not have to get the chips taped into place or have someone from gaming there to change them out.  I understand that it's labor intensive and they're not changing them every Friday to "tighten them for the weekend", but the reality is that they are free to change the payback chips whenever they see fit.  ...including a month after putting a machine on the floor.

Not only that, but the casino could have loads of MPU's with the approved chips installed and already taped.
They just change the tray and board assembly with another for a higher or lower percentage.
The tray's I get from casino are marker with a machine number on them.

The boards themselves are taped with the security tape so changing the board would require a gaming comission compliance officer(think they're called that) to be present and sign off just like the chips.

W

Your correct,
But all my trays have tamper proof tape that is different than the ones on the chips. I believe gaming commission has theirs on the chips and the casino has their tape on the trays

Maybe someone that works at a casino can advise. I don't see them taking down a machine and having to wait for the inspector when they have a bad MPU.

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who's rules does the on ship casino adhere to ?

My guess would be which state and commission they got their license from?
I'd imagine they have to pay taxes and percentages and report to the state they port at?
Surely there must be independent state gaming officials onboard in order to run a cruise casino?
Too many questions really - I've never really looked into this.

the one I was on only opened the casino after we were out to sea. International waters?

W

Most Ships are not registered as US ships.
They are registered where it can save them the most money and fewer regulations.
They still have to pass US Coast Guard inspections and other inspections as they come due.
They do not apply for or acquire state gaming license so the casino stays closed while in port and US waters, and opens after entering International Waters.
I would suspect they close for each port to keep any country from trying to get a piece of casino's take.
 

Just a little note to Add to what is said about Nevada Casinos and changing the chips. In addition to using only approved chips the head technician usually or the Slot Director must have on file a PAR sheet for each and every game. When gaming comes to inspect, and they do very frequently the tech has to produce those sheets for each machine that the agent or agents want to inspect. It is permissible to have several machine #'s all listed on one PAR sheet as long as they all have the same program #.  Additionally every quarter the machines must meet the stated % values of the hold % stated on the par sheets or the machines must be inspected to find out why the machine is under or over PAR %. In a large casino this will keep techs busy for weeks at a time. The accounting department is always at odds with the techs, as when they see a par of 90% they think that the machine should always run at 90%, but those of us who know, realize that the stated Par % of a slot is stated as a LIFETIME #. this means that over the life of the machine (in most cases 5 years or a Million Handle pulls) it will average out to meet the stated PAR %. It is permissible to "Adjust the PAR %" when it can be documented that there is nothing wrong with the machine, yet it has consistently held either over or under the PAR % for the past 12 months. When these "Adjustments" are made they must be noted on the PAR sheet for the game in question and must be approved by the gaming commission verbally via telephone. As a former Casino Lead Tech in Nevada I know this to be fact, I also know that several other states these regs are very similar as many states modeled their regs after Nevada. I also know that All Indian Casinos are regulated by the National Indian Gaming Commission. Each tribe also has 1 or more gaming agents present. Also all Indian gaming chips must meet approved Kobetron specs for that chip. If it is not listed as approved they are not supposed to use it. In the approval list it gives a Kobetron signature, when the games are brought in for the first time they pull the chips out of the games and check the signature of the chips with a kobetron machine and if it don't match whats on the approval list then it either has to be submitted for approval or replaced with a version that's on the list already. for those who don't know a kobetron machine is like a chip burner, only instead of reading and writing in binary it reads and displays a hexadecimal signature, but will not program a chip. this hexadecimal signature is what is compared to the approval list.
 

BuddmanTX

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I wanted to point out that the PAR % sheets I've seen are based on 10 million pulls
and there really wasn't any time period involved.
I could be wrong on this...
Are there PAR sheets based on one million pulls and 5 yrs.?

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 Most of them look something like this below.
I copy & pasted from any old PAR sheet to show you what I mean...>>>


Reel Strip Number 6417  HOLD %  2.524  Denomination:                              
 MODEL # : XX33X PAYTABLE 252B529                                                  
 90% Confidence value, 10,000,000 pulls-   LOW %:  97.11     HIGH %:  97.84
+----+---------+---------+------------+------------+  +----+  
!COIN! PERCENT !   HIT   ! TOTAL HITS ! TOTAL PAYS !  ! SYM!  NUMBER / REEL
!  # ! PAY BACK!   FREQ  !            !            !  !    ! R1  R2  R3
+----+---------+---------+------------+------------+  +----+---+---+---+
!  1 !  95.950%!  15.797%!      41412.!     251528.!  ! ~~ ! 23! 24! 27!
!  2 !  95.950%!  15.797%!      41412.!     503056.!  ! ~P ! 11! 12! 12!
!  3 !  97.476%!  15.797%!      41412.!     766584.!  ! 1P !  2!  2!  3!
+----+---------+---------+------------+------------+  ! 1B !  5!  5!  3!
NOTE:    REPEAT PAYS ARE SHOWN IN FACTORED FORM.      ! U1 !  4!  4!  4!
         ( AXB ) = C, WHERE                           ! 2P !  3!  3!  3!
         A = NUMBER OF PAYS                           ! 2B !  3!  2!  3!

I didn;t see a new thread about the cruise ships yet, so I posted  here. When I was on cruises in the 90's the casinos had to close in ports like nassau St. Thomas rtc.. MMy last cruise last February the casino stayed open in the port of Nassau which I found surprising given  that the Atlantis has a casino as well as the Wydham at Cable beach.  Being anight owlwhile cruisng, I did watch after the casino closed, since I had noticed that  the first few days jackpots and payouts were frequent, towards the ends the machines were tighter. Personal experience and observation. I did see workers inside the machines but couldnt  tell what they wwere doing, they had a cart some boards etc. Might have been routine maintainence or board swaps. All I know is by weds nite  no one was winning. I wouldbe curious also as to who controls or overseas the gaming laws if anny at see. If thee wouldd need a gaming  official on board at all times, I think I just found a job for me when I retire in a couple of years  :89-

As an additional question. As I always wondered and just caught a special on vegas on the travel channel. When they post signs above the machines stating 97% payback, 100% payback, does  that mean all  machines  in the bank of 20  machines pay that back or just indivvidual ones or is it a composite average of all those machines? The Indian casinos here that just wonder what the criteria is for posting those signs.

There are 31,536,000 seconds in a year. Assuming you could pull the handle or hit the spin button once every 8 seconds. You would get 3,942,000 pulls in a year.
To hit 10mm pulls = 2.5 years.  I some how doubt that you would see any particular machine that busy 24hrs a day.

So realsistically speaking even 5 years is a stretch to hit 10mm pulls.

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And so the hunt begins :89- :200- :72-

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Yeah that is what I figured lol..  I stick mostly to video poker,more of  a thought process. But I'll let the warden know about this. Am sure she will work the whole row of machines looking for the magic one..lol

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 :72- In charge of what???  :208- :97- :200-

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LOL..I'm the little guy that's always pulling yer leg... :200- :72- :97-

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It wasn't a machine swap, since as I mentioned it's the only bank of those brand of machines in the entire casino.  It could be, as you suggested, a setting in the machine.  I've never had access to the menus of a Spielo video slot, so I can't confirm or deny that, but I'll give you that it might be possible.  That said, it was a heck of a coincidence that when that change was made, the frequency of payouts (in my observation) decreased very noticibly, very suddenly. 



Actually, Slot Docs said that PAR sheets had to be kept on file for if/when the gaming comission came by for inspections -- not that every change had to be recorded with the gaming commission.



Again, Slot Docs never said that gaming had to be present to do a software swap.  In Nevada, it's not required.  (In other jurisdictions, such as Atlantic City, it is -- in Nevada, and others, it's not.)  Beyond that, as I mentioned I was talking about a Native American casino that has nearly zero oversight by anyone -- they're free to change software as frequently as the weather changes, and don't have to report it to anyone.




Most of the PAR sheets we've seen are probably the same (IGT S+ PARs).  The reality of the situation is that the more pulls, the better, as the more trials of the math, the closer to the expected payback percentage the machine will get.  That's why, as Slot Docs mentioned, a machine could be 'out of line' for even a year depending on the luck (or lack thereof) of the people playing the game.  The more pulls of the handle, the closer to the expected return a machine will get.



As mentioned, the Native American casinos really don't have a lot of oversight at all.  In my opinion, they could put the signs up and have it be total BS.  In a regulated jurisdiction like Las Vegas, the sign must be accurate.  Look very closely at the signs -- many of them have in the fine print somewhere above the number the magic words, "up to."  If it says, "THIS BANK - up to 98% PAYBACK!", then only one machine in the bank has to be 98% for that sign to be kosher.  If it says that all the machines in that bank pay 98%, then they have to.  I'm not sure if it only says, "98% Payback Slots" if all of them are, or if only one has to be.  Check the wording, though -- most of the ones I've seen say "up to".

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Lets see if I can keep this fire burning until......Kevin leaves for Vegas next week.  :72-

I too, have seen new banks of machines pay good.
A few years ago I went to The Four Queens in downtown Vegas. There was a new bank of about eight Bally Dagwood & Blondie video slots. I already played this game on my Masque CD so thought I would try the real thing. Hit the bonus round much more often than my home CD and then hit five Blondies on line 5. Line 9 would have payed the $35,000 progressive. While waiting for my $525 handpay, no TITO back then, a change lady said that a woman hit the same thing, on the same machine, just hours earlier.

This is what I thought was going on;
I believe Bally put those machines on the floor as a trial. If The Four Queens liked the play they received they could buy them. So maybe Bally had most at the maximum payout to attract more play.
Of course if the casino bought them, lower payback chips would be installed.
Just a thought.
My next trip, 6 months later, those machines were gone.

Clarification of my previous comments for those that care, As someone else has mentioned in Nevada gaming need not be present to change the software in a given game at any given time. However the software had better be on the approved list and there had better be a par sheet matching the game on file if they come to inspect and happen to pick that game. The software change must be documented in the shop records for that machine as well as the Accounting Department. Also it can and will vary somewhat from Casino to Casino within the state as each casino basically writes their own procedures for Day to day operations and then submits them to gaming during the license approval process (this is known as the Reg 6). Also for any given game theme such as the ever popular IGT S+ games there can be a wide and far reaching # of percentages (anywhere form 76% to 99.9% is legal in Nevada) available to the purchaser of the game without having to modify anything else in the game. Additionally it has always seemed to me that when new games were brought in that they always went a little nuts for the first couple of weeks........this would include new games ordered by our slot director for either purchase or trail basis and we got to choose the % of the game when it was ordered.

 Additional Clarification about Indian Casinos in addition to the NGC the different tribes are also governed by there compacts with the state in which they are located. No compact then No gaming, that is federal law and applies to them even though they are considered sovereign nations within our borders. Additionally most tribal gaming agents come from sources outside the tribes and do not actually work for the tribes as do most casino managers in the tribal casinos. They hire qualified outside people or companies to run the stuff for them, and then the tribe sits back and collects the money.

Wrong...
How can any tribal "nation" located within the borders of United States be "sovereign" -
when they have to follow U.S. gaming laws?
I'd suggest you look up the definition of "sovereignty" in your dictionary.
Also, see the difference between the words "tribe" and "nation".
Totally different concepts.

The NIGC and state native gaming Compacts was devised by the federal goverment
in the late 80's as another way to rake in money using "indians" as their puppets/excuse...
Very few of these "Apple-Indians" get anything other than a state-endorsed paycheck on Thursdays.
Traditional natives receive nothing...


Tribal "indians" are really "storefront props" for federal and state revenue.
They are nothing more than state employees dressed in indian costumes like in the movies.  :72-

For what it's worth, and we've had this conversation before, Bunker, the Native American tribes here in Minnesota have it pretty good.  The state doesn't get a penny of the take, and at least the local tribes to the Twin Cities run themselves -- they have their own gaming commission, their own CEOs, etc.  They didn't hire anyone from the outside to run the place.  In addition, at least for the casino closest to me, members of the tribe who reside on the reservation receive a healthy check each month from the casino, for as long as they live there.

In order for the state compact to change, both sides (the state and the Minnesota Native Americans) have to be willing to negotiate.  Given the incredibly favorable (to the Native Americans) conditions of the current state compact, I don't think it will ever be changed.  (In essence, the Native Americans here have nothing to gain, and everything to lose by negotiating a new compact, so I don't blame them one bit for not being interested in making a change).

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Do the Indian Casinos actually use Random Number Generators in their machines?  :103-  Sorry I hd to Rocket  :30- :200- :96-

Hey Bunker,
     Sorry that was my understanding of the several tribes that we dealt with in California. And one in particular.
I apologize if my information was incorrect.

Slot Docs

That's okay slotdocs!
There's a wide variation of the agreements ( Compacts) made between the
states and the various tribes around the country.
Some tribes get more of the final cut than others.
The compacts signed are agreements made between the various states and the tribal council governments.
What I was trying to point out is the fact that what true Nation makes agreements with states?
Nations generally talk to each other on a nation-to-nation basis...
This is why the tribal indians are really just another branch of the state - there's no real "sovereignty" but
more rather - a contrived one which they enjoy.

If you look back into the history of the native gaming - it goes all the way back
to the Nixon administration but didn't really come into affect until the late 80's when
the US government had no control over the various casinos the indians were putting up.
The federal government wanted to put a stop to these places so they basically shut
most of them down and allowed them to open up following the newly formed NIGC and
leaving options for each state to start negotiations with the tribes - with this, the "compacts" were born.

The main reason for all of this was to control the indians and as a way to get
their foot in the door to enforce taxation on natives.
They did not differentiate the differences between the tribal indian and the traditional indians.
They had the tribal indians in their pocket and payroll -
so these were the ones that were "recognized" by the feds and states.

How do I know all this?
Our family were 1/3 part owners of a traditional bingo/casino in the late 80's.
The state and feds didn't like that they weren't getting a piece of the pie we started.
We (and about 26 other small casinos) got shut down by the feds shortly
thereafter and the they came in and took over the reservation.
They forced out all the traditional employees and put in their own.
The few natives that are actually working now - mop floors.

Figuring they already had these tribal guys, they could control the traditional indians as well.
Once this was in place, the Land issues come into play -
but that's opening another whole another can of worms...
I hope this helps clear up the confusion a little.

Now , back to our regular scheduled programming on the *sic*randon*sic* generator...lol

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lol I'm sorry Rocket...you know how we go off track.

What are the differences in RNGs between let's say an S+ and a Bally 5500?
Is this number generator contained in the chip software or microprocessor component on the MPU's?

Bunker,
What's the deal with the Seminole Indians?
I think they partnered with Hard-Rock to get started because they had no idea how to run a casino. Then bought out the Hard-Rock to take sole possession, but kept the name. ??

lol...I'm in new york...I have no idea what's going on down in Florida.
I thought they were still counting chads on voter ballots.  :72-

 :79- :30- :30- :72- :97- :72- :97- :205-

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Ok, back to the RNG. Where is this info you promised after resurrecting this thread on July 21st???

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What hospital? (I'm buying stock  :97- :97- :97-)

Hey Bunker,
      No problem and thanks for the information......It's nice to hear from someone who knows and not someone who was paid to say things.....LOL
Anyway sounds like typical Big goverment trying once again to screw the little guys. In which case the Indians have always gotten the short end of the stick from the white goverment. I do feel for them.

Slot Docs

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So to get back on track I going ask what I think is a simple question. Does RNG in Video Poker have only 52 numbers one for each card or 2,598,960 numbers one for each possible five card poker hand or something different?
Mike

Rocket, Sorry about your Knee. Hope everything turns out well in the end.

Its my understanding that for each deck of cards in a Video Poker, Blackjack game etc that the computer selects 52 random numbers and creates a virtual deck.

Cards are then dealt from the stack - ie you get your 5 basic cards, subsequently when you hold 2 cards, and 3 new ones are dealt they are pulled from the virtual stack.

Now with respect to the double up feature - I am unclear if the cards are shuffled (randomized) before each pass but assume 5 cards are dealt for each double up choice it would take less
than 10 successful passes for all the cards to be used up..... but.... I am pretty sure this situation is handled.

I seem to recall from old posts on the old site that the IGT pokers have their RNG whirling threw the 52 cards until the spin/max bet button is pushed. Then 5 cards are selected. When cards are discarded, the RNG is again whriling through the remaining 47 cards and produces the drawn card(s).

The Ballys as I recall have their RNG whirling through the 52 cards and draw 10 cards, five shown and five in a stack to replace any discards.

Doesn't make any difference, just like a real draw either way.

Now, I could be wrong here, but this is what I remembered.
Anybody else remember this??

I have always wanted to know the speed of the selection of the RNG.
You say whirling, but is it possible that the RNG actually runs really slow?(changing once every second)  It would just take it forever to complete one cycle and if the machine is idle it could pass the top award.

Does anyone REALLY know?   The odds would be the same.

Hi All

Here is an good article I found while researching I Gaming - http://www.igamingbusiness.com/sites/default/files/file/March_%20April%202009/28-29_Mar_Apr09.pdf.

Neonkiss - My guess is that it would run pretty fast. The only way you really would know is to decompile the SW. Probably every platform/model would handle this diferently. Maybe somebody like Stolistic that get these things running in mame could shed some light ?

Rocket - Hope the Knee Op goes well.

Ian

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My bulb is burned out...

I disagree with the above statement and/or assumption.
But the rest of the post with the 100 spin pause, CMOS storage, etc is good stuff, thanks Rocket.

The reason I disagree is that the S+ usually had about 66 virtual stops per reel. Maybe up to 256 stops per reel.
So at most the RNG is producing up to 256 different numbers or remainders of numbers. This 256 number cycle would be completed in a second or less and then over and over. The chance of hitting the jackpot symbol would be relatively the same from the second it is turned on for the first time until the day it is retired. Now I said cycle but it is a random event so several numbers could come up more than others during any one period. The number retrieved from the RNG is added to the beginning of the virtual stop table and whatever symbol is at that location in the table is where the reel stops. Different games have the jackpot symbols at different locations on the reel and in the virtual stop table. So no one number is "The golden number". Depends on the game.
Interesting reading, thanks again.

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 :103- ITS GONE ! ----REMOVED UNDER LEGAL COUNCIL ADVISE

i still say sometimes at the casino i wonder if ure player card has sutten to do with it specially in the high stakes slots....last week i got at the casino like 10 and every machine kept saying happy birthday and i was hitten like crazy the minute after midnight came and the machines stopped saying happy birthday i lost my balls lol.......

RNG ..

R - REALLY hard to figure out if you are going to win and chances are you are not going to.
N - NOT likey to win anything big and most likely you will give back what you did win.
G - GOOD thing your bank roll is small .. see N.

That is all you need to know about RNG.

 :212- :212- :212-

I think Ken has it nailed and hit the bulls eye.

This was from Casino Player Magazine
Myth: “You can’t win if you’re playing with a slot club card!”

Truth: This notion is absolutely false. There is no link between the slot club card reader, which is only recording information about the number of coins being played and the RNG (Random Number Generator) which determines the combination of symbols (or cards) that come up on the pay lines. By not using a slot club card, you are only denying yourself all the “hidden” benefits and rewards of playing—such as cash back, comps, gifts, special invitations, future room offers and more

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Rocket that was a great post. I did think of a question though maybe someone can answer. In the article it stated that the RNG is always working even when the game is idle. Some one posted that they hit more jackpots after clearing the saferam. How does turning off the power to the machine effect  the RNG. Does the battery back up keep the RNG going? If so, is this why bally's eat batteries because of too much drain running the RNG in the background?

First, let me say that this has been an extremely informative thread for me.  I LOVE learning about the inside workings of these machines!  Many Thanks Rocket for this Thread!

I do however need some clarification as to how you have concluded that the EPROM chip that is located on the motherboard has anything to do with how the payback percentage of the machine is determined?

It was my understanding (And someone PLEASE CORRECT ME if I am wrong) That the EPROM chip that is located on the motherboard is there for Accounting purposes only.
I thought that the motherboard EPROM with simply a database that is used for Statistical data that could be used to check and verify the coin in to coin out statistics, but had nothing to do with the overall calculations of how the machine Wins are determined.  What I am saying is that the MPU never READS the data from the Motherboard RAM for use in determining the outcome of a game.

The way I understand it, the machine MPU uses no historical data to calculate its generated Random numbers. 

Therefor, Clearing the Motherboard RAM would have absolutely no affect on the outcome of the game.
 

 

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That's one statement that will never be on a marquee on a casino floor... :72-