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Hey everyone,

Just got back from Vegas. I noticed very few IGT S2000's in the casinos. It seems that each casino only has a small part dedicated to them. Are they being completely phased out? I only saw three reel touches. It seems slots in the casinos are so advance now, that S2000, visions, real touch are quite old technology. I had a ton of fun playing penny slots. So addicting..I'm thinking my next purchase should be a "Bucks ahoy".

I think Buck$ Ahoy would be a very nice choice.  B.

Yes they are, I have one, therefore there is one less for the casino. But seriously, on my last trip to the casinos I saw a good mix of S2000, S6000, Newer Bally's and IGT S AVP, Konami, Aristocrat, etc. Eventually everything will be server based, transmissive reels and/or video.

Not in Nevada! The Nevada Gaming Commission is NOT sold on it, in fact they say the operator could CHEAT with a server based system....

I did not know that the server based gaming was not approved by Nevada.

According to industry bragging, casinos at the MGM City Center are supposed to have server based slots. I haven't been there so I can't confirm it first-hand. If so, then they are approved for Nevada. On the other hand, I've heard nothing but negative comments from potential purchasers, who see no advantage in it for them. They see it as a supplier's tool to turn a one-time purchase into a permanent revenue stream through annual license fees, and to force them to upgrade their slots at a whim just by turning off the servers. Casinos have become extremely irritated with the license fees and forced upgrades as a way of relieving them of their cash and I think this, as much as anything else, is causing IGT to hemorrhage market share in favor of Aristocrat, WMS and Bally. You only hear the positive side, though, because the PR department has done such a good job of talking up SBG for the press and Wall Street stock analysts. I don't believe there's much future in it myself.

Why can't the casino's brightest and most technical minds come up with a "Linux" type protocol and OS to do their own "server based gaming" Microsoft demonstrated this well by giving away IE to kill Netscape.

I think the casino and the gaming companies have to be seperate entities. Along the same lines that the floor personnel from, say, the Sands have to gamble across the street at the Stardust. I really find it hard to believe that server-based games have made it through regulatory approval. I see it as a security nightmare, with lots of possibilities for fraud. Almost any info that "travels" can be intercepted. I'm sure we all know that there is no such word as Random, so reverse-engineering the algorhythms is definitely a possibility. I find it kinda scary at this present time.

Well you can't use TCP/IP even with encryption as it is too much of a risk. But you could use SAS or another protocol with encryption and that might do the job.

What you are suggesting is to create a low cost server based gaming company.
There are a few problems with this.

1. You can't have server based gaming without terminals to run it on.
None of the existing slot companies are going to allow you to use their terminals to run your software so you need to have the captial $$ to rapidly manufacture thousands of terminals.

2. You don't have access to any of the existing slot themes. Just getting the rights to a old TV show or even graphical icons to use on a reel is an expepensive proposition.

3. Gaming regulation. Games on the floor have been through extensive - stupid, stupid levels of integrity testing to ensure that hidden easter egg is not built in that allows someone to come in and win.... and the game plays to the documented stats.

The only remote possibility would be to create a consortium of Casino Owners - MGM Group, Harrahs, Sands, Wynn etc. And get them to fund the above.
Since most of these public companies are broke and are wall street run I can't possibly see them investing in any of this in the near term.

Case in point MGM got funded by Dubai World at 85/share. I bought when it dropped to $65.00. I am still holding it at $10.30..... With City Center being built they are leveraged to the hilt.

LVS was at $120 - they are involved in Macau, Singapore, Atlantic City, Pittsburgh .... They are now trading at 17. and change. Been as low as 6.30 ....

Wynn is the only group with Money and they are hurting.....

TI in Las Vegas was the first Vegas casino to have server-based gaming.  They only had a few machines as an initial test.  Aria (the casino-hotel that is part of MGM's CityCenter) has SBG machines for most of its gaming floor.

As a player, I don't like it.  I know the games hold a house advantage, but I don't like the notion that the casinos can easily change the odds on a whim ("we're coming up on the end of the month and revenue is down, make the slots tighter!").

As a casino owner (which I'm not), I love the idea -- I can change the layout of my slot floor with the click of a mouse -- no glass (for most games) or chip changes required.  If the layout/themes/denominations/payback isn't working, it can be fixed in a matter of minutes.



That'd require a trip in a time machine, too, as they're both gone.   :96-

I thought that the NGC required the game to be disabled for 15 mins before the % change and then 15 min after?

I read that same phrase some where last year but maybe the gaming people changed that too... :128-
It an ever revolving door in this biz...laws change like almost every year...

A new casino opened up locally, so they have all new machines and there are few S2000 machines.  Most are the SBG types with the "Multi-Level LCD reel slots" and such.  Lots of WMS, Bally, Aristocrat, Konami.  I would say that IGT has about 30% of the floor.

Williams has made monstrous gains on the floor near my home...as far as IGT S2000's about 4 machines total.
And those 4 machines are like $5 -$100 a pop to play - with heavily faded @$%&# looking strips too! lol

I can tell you that the local casino here (Seneca Niagara Casino) U.S. side of Niagara Falls
the S2000 are flying off the floor along with the Bally 6000
being replaced with Williams and those Multi game IGT video's which don't pay crap.
The last 3 times I went in the course of a few months the floor has changed every time
I am not a big fan of the video type slots plus they suck more money in if you have any hope of winning.

Now of course these new machines are a big hit with the people
I for one can't stand all the noise they make along with people blowing smoke in your face
and watching them do there special voodoo on the machines.

I tend to sit in the dollar section with a beer in hand
rolling whats left of the S2000 and Bally 6000.

Tim

Four minutes each, is what I remember reading.

See? I told ya! It changes all the time!!!    :72- :200-

They have - it's called the Gaming Standards Association, and it's made up of all the major slot manufacturers, a slew of small fry, and several of the large casino groups. The idea was to come up with interoperability standards, such as SAS, and common standards for internal components like bill acceptors and printers. I sat on one of the technical committees for many years. Not as much has been achieved as was hoped for - some very fine technical standards have been worked out, but the take-up has been slow. Believe it or not, GSA has already developed standards and protocols for server based gaming.  However, the technology is protected by strong patents and flesh-eating lawyers, and there will not be an open-source version any time soon.

Talking of other technology that should never be approved - going a bit off-topic here - what about Blackjack dealer shoes that count cards? Oh yes, they do exist. As the cards come out face down, the front lip reads the card and keeps a Thorp count! The only possible application for this is to cheat the players - it tells the casino when the deck turns in favor of the players, so that they can reshuffle. I don't know whether any jurisdictions have approved these diabolical cheating devices, but watch out for them in unregulated places like cruise ships.

oh my...I read all about Edward Thorpe's methods when I was a dealer.
His book "Beat the Dealer" was highly read among Blackjack dealer's around the world!
I really like John Scarne though - his hand manipulation of the Blackjack cards was really remarkable.
He was really a magician when he was younger.
His stories of different casinos around the globe were amazing to read about.

But for the casino dealers,  to practice card counting was shunned.
It's amazing that they've  (the casinos) have become the "card counters" now with these special shoes...
should be totally outlawed or else - make card counting legal for the players side!

MindPlay was put in at a few Nevada casinos, and advantage blackjack players threw a fit.  I know of at least one lawsuit filed against the Nevada Gaming Commission about the MindPlay devices, which have since (to the best of my knowledge) been removed from all Nevada casinos.  You bring up an excellent point, though, that they could still exist in non-regulated jurisdictions like cruise ships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MindPlay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MindPlay)

http://bj21.com/allen_vs_nevada/complaint.html (http://bj21.com/allen_vs_nevada/complaint.html)

There's nothing illegal about counting cards, but most casinos that know you're doing it will politely invite you to play any other game in the casino except blackjack ("backing off").  If you don't adhere to being backed off, then they'll outright ban you from the casino.  You haven't broken any laws, but it's their sandbox and they don't want you in it if you can outsmart them.

:212-  Precisely. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."  Those signs go up in restaurants, but it is casinos that make use of their message.

It's illegal if you use a computer or other device to help you. They call it a "cheating device" and you'll spend the night in jail. But that being the case, if an electronic counter is a cheating device on one side of the table, so it should be on both. The complaint in Allen v. Nevada was spot-on. I wonder what was the outcome of the case? Just getting rid of Mindplay was probably enough of a triumph.

<edit> the casino down the road from me that I shall not name didn't need Mindplay. They had a perfect manual method. Every time I started gaining a little ground at Blackjack, they changed the dealer. It worked every time.

On Monday I went to Mohegan Sun  - here in the north east.   they have THOUSANDS  of S2000 machines -

I hadn't been there in a while and couldn't believe how many there were.       If they unload there old slots I think the price of an S2000 would drop to a few hundred bucks. 

Oddly this casino doesn't have that many wms machines - I counted only 50 or so. 

In PA they have electronic "21" that is a video of a pretty girls dealing the cards, can't count cards, but you can't cheat either. PA should have table games by fall..........

They are in Vegas/Laughlin as well. Actually, the fine print on the "stations" that I saw states that the machine deals from a six-deck shoe and there is an indication of when the cards are shuffled (indicating that they are not shuffled for every hand) and I could see other player's cards, so it is possible to count. However, I was suspicious of the machine, since it could easily count cards with me and then report me to the boys in the back if my bets and play changes tracked with the count. Any bets as to whether or not these machines do that, and if that would be considered legal? :128- :30-


<PS> I suppose that I ought to try it one of these days with no player tracking card and use a really big bet spread (the machine allows a good range of bets) and see if or how long it takes for the goon squad to show up behind my chair. :200- All they can do is ask me to leave.. or back room me and make empty threats.  :25-

Actually, if you're caught using a physical cheating device in Nevada it's a felony, so you'd be spending more than a night in jail. :81- :58-

Op-Bell, regarding that dealer change at the casino down the road, is your implication that they were bringing in a cheating dealer?

I experienced that in Reno 20 years ago and learned to quickly leave or change tables (just to f$#% with them and see how long it would take them to "maneuver" that same dealer to my new table). But to be honest, I haven't seen that happen in at least a decade. Of course, it's certainly possible that I'm not as observant as I used to be. :129- :96-

There was one time in Tahoe where I had been doing well, and I saw the pit boss off to the left look at my chip pile, look back at his clipboard, then back at my chips, then back to the clipboard, and two minutes later a new dealer showed up at my table to replace the dealer that had just taken over five minutes earlier. I lost seven hands in a row and left. Coincidence?...
 :101-
 :97- :97- :97-

THAT'S called "the old switcheroo"...!!!  :96-

LOL, yeah, I know, that's why I mentioned them. Sad thing is, I've stayed at many of the places that are now gone.

Regarding dealers counting - was at the Fitz in Reno years ago, and the wife decided she was in a blackjack mood. Sat down at a $2 table, and of course, my wife was keeping the play rather slow, as she was asking questions and stuff. After awhile, the dealer started getting irritated, and when she was taking what he thought was too long, he said " you got a 5" - and it was a face down card. I caught it, no one else did, and when the hand was done I suggested that we go find her some slots, and we both left.

If I were to say that, it might be considered a libel. But considering it was a single-deck game and hand-dealt, and it happened consistently... One time, as I left the table after being cleaned out, one of the other players said "I've been watching your play, and you did everything right!" Seriously, how can you watch one particular dealer hit garbage like 14 or 15 and make 20 or 21 time after time, without you start to wonder?

As for the electronic 21 games, I won't go near them. I was once developing an electronic 21 for a company now out of business and they asked me to include a "percentage" feature. It was quite simple - if the game's hold percentage was below 5%, the electronic dealer was not allowed to bust. If it drew a bust card it silently discarded it and drew another. The gaffe would be completely invisible to players, except that they would lose too often if they stood on a low hand to the dealer's low card. I refused and never completed the job. I was afraid if I did, I might have problems later with the GCB that would make me unemployable in Nevada. I had other adventures with that company... Like the time two FBI agents showed up to interview me about one of the jobs I was doing for them. There was no wrong-doing, they were investigating a bogus tip from a competitor, but that kind of thing acts like a cold shower on one's motivation.

It wouldn't really be libel, since you didn't mention any names -- just as I didn't.

As far as the electronic 21 games that I've seen currently installed, I have to wonder if a gaff like that could get past the NGC testers in today's climate? I'm sure that such a machine could be set up in other parts of the world.

It would be no different from a video poker gaff that prevented players from getting a Royal Flush. It also might be considered acceptable for non-class III devices such as lottery terminals and some bartop machines where they are rigged to govern the payout and are not truly random.

I'm curious as to your thoughts about these things counting cards and reporting advantage players. :128-

<ADD> Maybe the pretty girl starts scowling at you and then gets replaced with an ugly old hag who deals seconds? :200- :30-  :72- :72- :72-
Virtual bouncers?? :127-  :7- :14-

That 21 game wasn't for one of the tightly regulated jurisdictions. But even if it was, a lot would depend on whether the game was classed as an electronic version of a casino table game, in which case it would have to emulate it accurately and play by the same rules, or if it was considered to be an electronic game - a slot machine - that just happened to look like a table game but would be allowed to play with hold percentages like a slot machine. The answer would lie in the small print and innocuous-looking legal phrases in the regulations. Don't risk it.

There was an online casino doing just that -- check out this link (http://wizardofodds.com/casinos/casinobar.html) for some interesting reading.

It was my understanding that card counting is NOT illegal.
I had been told that it is the property managers discretion as to whom they let into their establishments and can exclude anyone for any reason.
So a card counter is excluded because the casino wants them gone and there is no recourse such as requiring a burden of proof.

I was talking to a couple of local dealers about counting cards and a few count cards just to help them pass the time.
Of course following standard dealer rules this is just about exercising the brain and not cheating players.

But I don't understand...........if the casino has a built in edge % for the game, why would they have to "cheat", to maximize the edge???