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Watching C-SPAN was so anti-climatic. I am really disappointed in the result. Lets take a moment to reflect and B R E A T H!

I'm changing my name to Fernando Gomez and filing for amnesty,health care, Welfare,Wic,Section 8 housing...
It pays better than my retirement and I want to live on easy street like the rest of the other illegals....

We were gottin' screwed anyway. Tonight they threw sand in the vasaline

So totally pissed off! Now it will take a lifetime to undo. Oh well, back to playing slots.

Well as a Canadian blessed with universal healthcare, I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with waiting 8mths for a MRI.......  :72-

You know at what point will the give it away government understand that the only jobs that are going to be available to all these unemployed people are going to be the small business owners. At some point the boss has to actually make his check. As a small business owner that has been taking home less than his employees for the last two years at what point do I have to start letting these people go. I don't need another hobby called work I need an income. In my opinion any politicians that is in office today needs to voted out and all new blood needs to be reelected. Maybe then they will get the point.    

Lets not forget that big business just bought the supreme court so they can rewrite the laws regarding fare trade and send more jobs over seas. The courts are bought and paid for in CA. Did you know that you can sue any small business or person in CA except Insurance companies. You first have to prove to a judge that the insurance company did something wrong and only if the judge that was paid for buy the insurance companies say's they did something wrong then you can have a fare trial.  Now the supreme court removed all hold against big business buying the next set of politicians. Big businesses will only have to pay a small amount to health care. They will use the Wal Mart approach "since I'm buying so much I don't want to pay anything for it". leaving small business that can't fight back paying the bill.

Just my two cents I think it was my last two cents too

Blake

For us (me /wife)  I don,t know how much worse it can get  we pay 1321 a month for  ins  then have to pay 1st $5000, Which we thought we almost hit our coverage runs from may 1st to april 30th the $5000 runs from jan1 to dec 31, so evertything we paid in 09 don,t count, To make it worse  the agent told us we are going upto 1775 a month starting in may 10. Our ins plan has not paid out a penny we paid in about $21000,I go in hospiotal on weds for cath test or bypass Which ever it is I,ll have to paid 1st $3100.After I get out i,m looking for a good dr. that can get me ss dis I want some of my $$$ back they took off me in 08 when we sold everything in nj appox $400,000 in taxes. Funny part if i go to wal mart for meds with ins I pay high  ,If I lie tell then no ins they give me a better price , same goes for dr,s here

 :101- 
   And America will never be the same!  :37-  One of the greatest teachers of all time, is history itself.  There is absolutely NO evidence that the government can run
any program without it running amok, and spending spiraling way beyond it's control to ever recover.  Social Security, Welfare, Farm subsidies, and countless other "entitlement" programs
are about only one thing.  Securing the govt. more power to control our lives.  At the risk of offending some here...I will offer the following. (I have been a serious student of Political History, and history in general, most of my life. So I can provide the facts to back up my statements.)  Since the time of Woodrow Wilson, and especially since the time of FDR, liberal Democrats have repeatedly enacted legislation, with the even sometimes quietly stated intent, of creating a large class of dependent voters.  They realized that once you create a group of voters dependant on the govt. for "benefits", that they remain loyal to the party for fear of losing those benefits.  The "Healthcare bill" and upcoming legislation are aimed precisely at the same targets! Creating more
large groups of "voters" that depend on the government for their day to day needs!
  Now before you say that I am just another Right-wing whiny Republican, you should know this. I was raised to be a third generation Union member Democrat.  At a very early age I became fascinated with history, and began to study it heavily.  It was not long before I knew that the trend in politics was going to make me a serious Conservative.  Do I vote Republican? you bet, are there plenty of crooks in the Republican ranks? Damn right there are!  But until a truly viable third party arises, it is my only choice.  I am actually a Constitutional Conservative! I will NEVER vote for the democrats again...EVER  :81- 
  This administration and its Congress are hell bent on doing everything they can to "transform" America into the socialist mecca they dream of.  All of it, is absolutely antithetical to everything the Founding Fathers were trying to create when they formed this country, and an insult to the great documents that helped make the United States one of the greatest countries to have seen the light of day on God's Earth!   Enough for now...  God save us from our politicians!!! :137-  :137-  :137-

Besides everthing  Magicslots said below...if you don't get on the goverments "plan" YOU WILL BE FINED !  :81- :81- :81-

WTF  is  that !!!  :81- :60- :58- :30- :25-

 :101-

Yes, but with the money I would be saving on Health insurance, I could take that stack of "googleyes" money and buy an S2000!!

OH, we are screwed and don't even know all the backroom deals yet

They were so busy with backroom deals, arm twisting, free Air Force One flights, etc, I think Barry had to install a new Czar to handle it all.  Wouldn't it be great if a document existed that would limit government and assure its citizens never became subjects of the government, but instead kept a check on government so that it was always the subject of the people?  Oh wait, we have that.  Hmmm, maybe they will get around to reading that after they read the newest tax, I mean healthcare bill.  After all, pelosi said vote first, read later.  It is time they read.  Hopefully they will be reading the help wanted ads in November.   :137-

Well, DUH! Did you think it was going to fail to pass? Surely you weren't surprised!

As for what's going to happen next, consider these comments by David Frum, Bush speechwriter and sometime editor of the National Review (http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo).

I can not buy medical insurance for less than about 8K or more a year, I have a preexisting medical condition and my employer does not provide benefits at all.
I make 18-20K a year.
Out of about 24-26K last year Pfizer paid about 18-20K, a drug study.
I paid about 700 the state paid the rest. If I was not in the the drug study the state and feds would pay 24-30K
My prescriptions if bought at a retail pharmacy would be 24-27K a year. I think the state pays wholesale or a little less.
The Labs are about 2.5K a year alone.
If I just go in for the routine checks and labs the NP and Dr visits including labs run about 4-6K a year.
2005 the 2 day hospital stay was 15K co-pay was $200-300
2006 the 3.5 day stay was 20K co-pay was $200-300
I do not get to pick a private Dr or clinic for my condition.
Now my Clinic visits are $50 each and I have already seen GI, respiratory, eye and my nurse since jan 1, thats $200 I do not get to spend on man cave toys.
I also pay $40 per month for the name brand Rx I take daily. it will be years before its 2 patents run out.

I could take you out in the backyard and shoot you? :208-  (Just kidding...lol)

I think meds suck. They must use the suffering of people to jack up their prescription prices...
At least that's what it looks like from a non-user.
I never use any meds at all. If I die - I die. Big deal! End of story. :96-

I do if it's absolutely ness. Otherwise I don't.

Consider yourselves lucky.

My medical costs can't compare to Foster's, but I also found myself paying over $600 a month (over $7k/year) in post tax dollars for insurance coverage because my last few jobs have been with small employers who weren't required to provide health coverage or even flexible spending accounts (hence the post tax part). That $7k was for one middle-aged man -- no wife or dependents -- and did not cover the cost of doctor visits, prescription drugs, tests, or hospital stays.

I finally had to give up my insurance and have been without any coverage at all for over a year. My health care provider had been raising my premium 11% every single year (WAY beyond cost of living or inflation indexes) and then bumped it 22% the last year that I was still insured. :37-

I also have preexisting conditions so under the current laws I am uninsurable because health care is run by private bean counters and there is no law requiring them to insure anyone. If this legislation had not passed I would have never been able to regain medical coverage at any cost unless I found another job with a large company.

My prior insurance had been carried over uninterrupted from the last job that I had with such a company back in 2001. After the COBRA coverage was exhausted (18 months) I had the "option" :47- of continuing under the government mandated HIPAA program -- as long as I did not allow coverage to lapse at any time and paid their extortionary rates.

HIPAA is an acronym for "Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act."  What a joke. :18- There was no portability whatsoever. I could not move to another insurance carrier, even with uninterrupted coverage, and was therefore not only stuck with whatever level of service I had from my provider, but forced to pay whatever premium they chose. The government forced them to keep me under the HIPAA plan as long as I never missed a payment, but did not regulate how much they charged. If I had not dropped my coverage, I would be paying about $666  >:D a month right now (okay, it would have been a bit more, but 666 seemed fitting.  :96-)


Private medicine worked fine when the giant insurance companies weren't running things and doctors didn't have to carry massive amounts of malpractice insurance. Of course, in those days, doctors still made house calls. Today, people like Foster and I (and ROCKET, I dare say) can't buy insurance at any cost unless it's under some giant corporation's group coverage umbrella, and the cost of medical services for uninsured private citizens is beyond outrageous.

Getting medical services is like having your car repaired: if you're covered, they charge the insurance company a dollar; if you walk in, they charge you ten. I had a CAT scan back when I was covered. I found out accidentally that my provider had paid $125 for the scan, bringing the cost to $175 with my copay. For giggles, I went in and set up an appointment for the same test and said that I would be paying cash. They told me that it would be $1200. TWELVE HUNDRED.

This system is BROKEN and needs fixing. I'm not saying that the recently passed kludge is the answer, but leaving things as-is certainly is not.

Stat's right.   It's a real shame the both parties didn't come together for some well needed reform.    Very dark days are ahead for America.
 (I won't post again about this crap.  I play with my slots and come to this site to run away from life)  I'm enjoying sticking my head in the sand more and more these days.


I find that I no longer watch the news.
Steer clear of newspapers.

I even watched dancing with the stars last night with my wife!!! how sick is that!!!!!!  :30-

it's all down the drain now !!!!! we are all  _______ :5- :5- :5-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkZkJdd4cJU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkZkJdd4cJU)

I can't say that I blame you about turning away, but watching "Dancing with the Stars" is going too far!  :81- :30-  :97- :97- :97-


The problem with democrats is that they think that throwing more money at something and building a "new" pre-bloated agency is the solution to everything. Republicans pay lip service to smaller government but take our civil rights away at every turn in the name of fear and pander to deep pockets at the expense of the middle class. (Okay, to be fair, the democrats take away guns, so they're not completely innocent in curtailing civil rights, either.) Republicans also spend -- they just do it on war, military expansion, and protecting big oil interests around the globe instead of on social programs. GW Bush took us from a three trillion dollar surplus to a two and a half trillion dollar deficit well before his term in office was over, so don't tell me that democrats spend and republicans don't.

And let's not forget all of the garbage that congress tacked on to the health bill that has nothing to do with the health bill. Disallowing special interest parasites attached to bills would be a good first step in making a positive change IMHO.

I know it's too late, however:
Canada's health care system shows us that socialized medicine is probably not the right answer, but I should be able to walk into that aforementioned clinic (previous post) and pay the same $175 for a CAT scan as the insurance company paid them (when the copay is included). If they can afford to sell the procedure at that rate to all of the insured patients that walk through the door every day, then they can afford to sell it to anyone at that price. If that statement is untrue, then prices need to be adjusted and leveled for everyone, especially if we allow insurance companies to deny coverage as they choose.

Okay, who is the voice of the senior bubble in that commercial? I know who it is but just can't remember. It's right on the tip of my tongue --> :96-
 :208- :208- :208-

<EDIT> I looked at my tongue in the mirror... :200-

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2cpqn85.jpg)

snagglepuss

w

I received COBRA = Continuation of Benefit something or other.....when I was exited from my job in PA.
COBRA basically ensures that once you lose corporate coverage you can continue to receive medical insurance which might be otherwise denied to you or your family.

The cost of this for a family of 4 was $1235/mth. This gave me 80% coverage once the first $2000 was paid out of pocket. This does not come with any drug benefits.

I was lucky that my company gave me a cheque for 6mths benefits coverage as part of the "package".

In realistic terms I can't see who could afford to pay $1235/mth without a job - your entire EI cheque would be eaten away.

I hightailed myself back to Canada and was employed within 8 weeks at similar pay - so was able to pocket 4mths worth of this and 100% of my severance.

Medical Benefits here cost $23/mth for a family of four and Blue Cross Coverage for dental and prescriptions is another $80.00. The province covers the $23/mth if your employer doesn't.

There are certainly queues for some services. Ie a 3hr wait in the Emergency room or urgent care if you haven't been brought in by ambulance.
The theory I guess if you were able to walk in your probably not going to kick the bucket in the waiting room.

If you compare that against the US care system - If I didn't call my Primary Care Physican and get told to go to the Hospital (or a call to the HMO under some plans) then you could reasonably be expected not to be covered by insurance.

IMHO they Canadian system is overloaded as there is no deterriant to use the system. Any kid with a runny nose gets taken to the doctor. There should be some case fee or something just to get slow this down. No system is perfect.

Actually, I believe that Snagglepuss was voiced by Daws Butler

Paul Winchell did play the voices of:
Tigger
Jerry Mahoney
Boomer in The Fox and the Hound
Shun Gon, the Siamese Cat in The Aristocats
Gargamel, Baby Smurf, and others in The Smurfs
Dick Dastardly, Clyde, and others in The Wacky Races
Clyde, and others in The Perils of Penelope Pitstop
Fleegle in The Banana Splits
Marmaduke in heathcliff
Zummi Gummi in The Adventures of the Gummi Bears
and others...

COBRA coverage was a dream compared with the HIPAA coverage that followed. The COBRA coverage is basically (supposed to be) a continuation of your prior employer's coverage with the now unemployed person paying the lion's share of the premium. (As you said Jay, it doesn't make much sense hitting someone when they're down, does it?)

HIPAA is completely new (and inferior) coverage at a much higher cost mandated by the government to be given to people with preexisting medical conditions that cannot otherwise obtain coverage, provided that they hop onboard immediately following the exhaustion of their COBRA coverage, and without choice as to plan coverage or premiums, the provider (must remain with the provider chosen while working and locked into under COBRA), or the ability to terminate and restart if money gets too tight to continue.

Only three hours? They have it good up in Canada. I went to the ER once when I was unemployed and uninsured. I waited five hours in the waiting room before I even saw a nurse, then they billed me about $5000, which went to collections because I didn't have any money - I finally paid it when I got a job but it was on my credit report for years.

This last thing just before Christmas, my own doctor sent me down to the ER after the cat scan, even called ahead to pre-admit me. I waited, I think, 9 hours to see a doctor, who did nothing except to refer me to a urologist, which my own doctor had done already. I even had to point out the problem on my copy of the x-rays because he couldn't see it on his own. Then the f*ing co-pays totaled about $500 - with insurance - including $100 to the doctor for his valuable "services". After the co-pays for the surgery I've shelled out about $3000 in the last three months - with insurance. And now I have a pre-existing condition. So I'm quite interested in this reform bill, however flawed it may turn out to be.

The fix I think they should have done is to make all medical expenses tax deductible for individuals. That would at a stroke close the loop between the provider and the consumer, which at the moment is open, because my employer pays the premiums (which are deductible for them), so I have a less than vital interest in what the treatment costs. If I could deduct the cost of my own plan, my employer could give me a $400 a month raise to buy my own and I would shop around. If everyone did it, that should drive down costs through this "free market competition" I keep hearing about (but never see the benefits of). Of course, such a measure wouldn't appeal to the people who pay the congresscritters to look the other way while they rob us blind.

That could work, as long as plan providers were not allowed to cherry pick healthy customers as they do now. In my case, for example, I did ask for more money in the form of a higher salary from the small businesses that I worked for to help cover the cost of my HIPAA coverage, but I had no option to shop around at any price point, or to evade the usurious yearly premium increases.

"They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare....Giving a

distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union,

would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It

would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with

power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States and as they sole judges of

the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please."

-- Thomas Jefferson   :137-

*Yawn* That fight was lost 150 years ago, but at least for some time "general welfare" had some meaning for the average citizen. In more recent years the "general welfare" has come to mean only those with the money and influence to purchase a congressman or senator. If you would like to argue a case for the reduction of corporate welfare, I'm all ears. Extra points if you can get the likes of Limbaugh and Faux News to whip up a tea-party campaign against it also.

*Yawn* as well, sounds like the commentary from CNN, Headline News and scores of other media channel outlets, but lets cry foul with Limbaugh, Hannity and Fox News! What a laugh!

 Dan (tacman)

The bigger problem is the only way they can change the plan before the Sumpremes rule the Health Car "Law" unconstitutional is to change it from mandating citizens from purchasing a product from a private company to getting the single payer and making it a government program, then like Income taxes, Social Security and Medicare, it will be mandatory to participate.

Who cried foul? I certainly didn't. My comment was encouraging, motivated by admiration for their notable success in organizing a grass roots movement. Nearly successful enough to constitute an offense under the Sedition Act! You gotta admire that. It may appear they didn't achieve the aims they set out for, but David Frum (see above) seems to think they got what they really wanted.

Roberts to the rescue? I suppose with this court, anything could happen. Don't you just hate activist judges who legislate from the bench?

 The Constitution of the United States lists 17 enumerated powers to the Congress.  Not single D__n one is the power to
control or "take care' of its citizens from cradle to grave!  :81-  If you do the research, you will find that more than 98%
of all Federal laws on the books are "Administrative Law" which have occurred thanks to the Congress since the time of FDR!
Congress continually abuses its powers, by couching its efforts as covered by the "General welfare" clause and the "Commerce clause" of the Constitution.
 Repeatedly, for the past 80 years, history shows us that the U.S. economy, and its citizens prosper the most when Congress is in
"gridlock" to use the current phrase, and does little to nothing in the way of legislation!   :137- 

My 2c on how they should have structured the healthcare bill.....

1. The US Goverment purchases healthcare for its employess - presumeably said employees are in every state.
2. They should eliminate the whole Vetran Hospital system (and verterains administration for healthcare) and simply put those people on the same plan as all federal employees.
- the savings just from the loss of beuarcacy would be huge.
3. Next they should mandate that all state and municipal employees use the federal system
- This again reduces goverment waste from duplicate systems at 3 or 4 levels - just imagine how many different computer programs are used to administer benefits across the country. HUGE.
4. Next they should then move all EI and Welfare recepients onto the federal system.
5. For the seniors and disabled they should eliminate medicare and medicade and subsequent administration of said systems to be on the same system as the rest of the federal employees.

Theoretically now you have the largest single purchaser of healthcare across the board.

This should then be opened to all businesses to purchase healthcare at the same $$ that the US goverment purchases healthcare.

The plan here keeps medical insurance private. As everyone knows that anything the gpverment touches becomes bloated and expensive.

If the insurance cost is not at a reasonable level because all of the other insurance companies must now compete with the rate that the federal goverment purchases insurance. The goverment could then reform this from a for-profit insurance program into a not-for-profit and go with a fixed fee arangement to provide health care services.

There's only one problem with that, Jay.

The insurance companies paid the politicians too much money to let that happen.