New Life Games Tech Forums

 Ok, I'm in the process of doing a "RAM Clear" and I have a few questions about it. I know that after every 100 spins on my S+, you get to see that little pause, which from what I understand, is the machine writing the information from those last 100 spins to a RAM chip. I would imagine over time, that RAM chip would eventually fill up and no more information would be able to be stored on it. Here's the questions I have:
1: What RAM chip is it that's being cleared AND what exactly is being cleared out?
2: After clearing the RAM, what settings must be restored?
3: When should you actually clear the RAM?
4: Should people really do a RAM clear on a regular basis?

 I know when I purchased my S+, it was never mentioned to me if this was ever done. I'm just curious if there comes a time when some error code will pop up because of a full RAM. I thank you all for your help and I wish each and every one of you a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
 
EDIT: Also, the chip I have says: S+ CLEAR IVC-103 GAME. Is this a RAM Clear Chip?

First, the short answers to your questions are:

1. If you use your IVC103 clear (or a TEST123), you are clearing the CMOS RAM on the MPU board and the EEPROM data on the motherboard.

2. Doing a full clear will return of the software settings in the setup menu to their default settings and wipe out all of the bookkeeping history.
   This will include all of the settings in the setup menu (starts with option "2 --n" or "5--n", depending on your SP chip), as well as the hopper limits,
    jackpot limits, progressive setup* (if applicable), DBV* and denomination, etc. So, in short, you will need to go through everything to get it back
    to the way that you want it. For older chips that use the DIP switches, those settings will obviously remain as set.
    * NOTE: You will also need a SET chip to enable these features.

3. a) Only if the machine's data is corrupted and/or the machine is not functioning properly and you have determined that a clear is in order.
    b) Possibly after a battery change, but not necessarily. In many cases the CMOS setup settings can be reset (see answer 2) without
        clearing out all of the machine's history.

4. NO!

---

The information that you have is not entirely accurate. There are two locations in the machine that store data. One is a RAM CMOS chip that is located on the MPU board next to the game and reel chips, and the other is an EEPROM chip (non-volatile memory) that is located on the mother board (the small board on the floor of the machine that the large MPU board plugs into.

The pause each 100 spins that you refer to is the machine updating data on the EEPROM on the mother board. The chip contains a small amount of storage space used to maintain the most important information (mostly grand totals for the bookkeeping meters) so that it will survive even if the battery goes dead. It does not "fill up". There is a memory location for every piece of data that they wish to store, and the information is overwritten (updated) each time.

EEPROM memory was expensive when the S+ was new, and writing to it takes a relatively long time (hence the pause), which is why the rest of the data is stored in the CMOS RAM chip on the MPU board.

The S+ is a hardy, well built machine, and under normal circumstances a total clear should almost never be necessary. In fact, I have only cleared one of my machines once, and it turned out not to have even been necessary. The machine was acting screwy because my POS Willem EPROM burner had corrupted my original SP1271 chips (two of them!  :37-) when I was trying to get a backup copy of them. If I had installed a new good chip without the full clear the machine would have gone back to normal operation on its own.

When it comes to IGT S+ machines, members here use that clear chip much too often (not to be confused with the SET chips that enable the DBV and progressive setups).



NOTE: As an aside, Bally ProSlots are notorious for needing SAFERAM clears after battery changes, and are also notorious for eating up batteries like candy. I still have original batteries in my S+ machines and they are over 15 years old!! Bally knew that their design stunk, which is why they put a simple jumper on the MPU boards to do a clear without the need of any chips (with the older 5500 mains). I see it as compensation for bad design, IMHO.

STAT ,
I respectfully disagree with you 100% on the use of the RAM CLEAR BEING USED TO OFTEN as being in the business for the yrs i have worked on machines .


will a standard game change work fine without a RAM CLEAR ?? ANSWER   --YES !!  in most cases ..

BUT THE GAME MEMORY STORE POINTS STILL GET CLOGGED UP WITH THOUSANDS OF COIN DROPS -BILL INSERTED -SPINS ETC ..

IT IN FACT SLOWS DOWN THE S+ DRASTICALLY OVER A PERIOD OF TIME ITS THE SAME AS CLEARING THE CACHE OUT OF YOUR HOME PC .
AFTER VISITING THOUSANDS OF WEB SITES ETC FOR EXAMPLE .. THE COMPUTER -HOME PC BOGS DOWN . A HISTORY CLEAR AND CACHE CLEAR
WILL PUT THE MACHINE BACK TO NO SPINS -NO COIN IN NO BILL IN NO COIN OUT !!

IM SORRY AFTER SERVICING THE AMOUNT OF IGT S+ MACHINES I HAVE AND DONE A RAM CLEAR ..ITS LIKE GIVING THE MACHINE A TANK FULL OF PREMIUM FUEL AND A STRAIGHT ROAD TO RUN CLEAR OF DEBRIS -LEFT BY PAST GAMES INSTALLED !!


EVERY IGT -BALLY -MACHINE I PULL INTO TO SHOP OUT I RAM CLEAR IT TWICE . ON SPOT . TO GET RID OF THE OLD INFO STORED .
EXAMPLE I POSTED LAST WEEK MYTH OR LEGEND ON THIS SUBJECT OF THE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR HAVING A STARTING POINT ??ON A RAM CLEARED MACHINE ???


HYPOTHETICAL GAME BUT TRUE STORY -- IGT 5-LINE DOUBLE DIAMOND ON NICKELS RUN 5 YRS 24/7 DAILY ON A 88% PAYOUT CHIP . IN A POPULAR SPOT IN CASINO
THAT GAME I HAD DELIVERED TO MY SHOP ONCE !!UNSHOPPED !!


THERE WERE SO MANY NICKELS -NOT TO MENTION BILLS THAT HAD PASSED THROUGH THAT MACHINE !!THAT THE ENTIRE FLOOR OF SLOT HAD ALMOST
A GOOD 1/8 " THICK OF NICKEL GRINDINGS WHICH AFTER CLEANED -PUT INTO A DIXI CUP ADDED UP . POORED  OVER TO A STANDARD COOKING  MEASURING CUP . IT WAS OVER 2-OZ. OF METAL GRINDINGS OFF THE NICKELS --OVER ALL THOSE YRS ..

THATS ONE HECK OF ALOT OF COIN IN -COIN OUT BILL IN ETC   THAT MACHINE FLEW AND SANG A SONG WHEN COMPLETED WITH A RAM CLEAR .


SO TO SAY ITS OVER USED BY MEMBERS ??????? IM SORRY   SEEING IS BELIEVING AND FOR THE SHORT PROCEDURE TO DO A RAM CLEAR .I DO IT ON EVERY GAME I DO A GAME SWAP .. NOT TO OFTEN BECAUSE I HAVE MOST GAMES ..

BUT NONE THE LESS IT NEVER HURTS TO PERFORM A RAM CLEAR 

Rocket

I am not trying to take sides here (honest) but I have to agree with Rocket... After owning my S+ for well over a year it I changed the bill validator and decided to also do a full ram clear and not just a set.  WOW, what a difference in performance after that and I know what your going to say but within a week I hit the TOP jackpot once (Red White & Blue) and the 2ed jackpot (red 7's) twice on a RWB unit.   Never hit it before or since !

Just my experience  :5-

OK, so I'll ask: What "increase in performance" do you see? Do the reels spin faster? Do they stop faster? Does the win counter increment faster?

Just a general faster response such as no "lag" when the reels spin and a overall crisper response when playing...Can't really pinpoint it except to say that the machine seemed "slow" before?  Hits also seem to be more "lively" (no its NOT the drugs) :30- :25- :79- :79-

What is "lag"? Where would I notice this? Like it takes a long time between when you push the spin button or pull the handle and the reels start spinning?

Not sure what you mean by "crisp", either... :103-

Yes exactly..also the reels seem to spin faster and stop on a dime.. the lights all look brighter and the machine has a "glow" to it...sounds seem more enhanced and the payouts are in newer and greener money.  :72- :72- :72- :97- :97- :97-

Comon guys I need some Backup here...  :5-

OVERALL REACTION TIME OF THEM ALL .. will you see the rpm of the reel increase with the naked eye .. in some cases yes i have seen drastic changes in reel speed .

as far as hitting jackpots --after a full ram clear and playing the new game right after .. only a few have I seen >>NOT THE GAME RAPID JACKPOT <<

BUT the>> hit of a jackpot<<< sooner than later .

plus lets you program the kit that was installed that may not be the same number kit that was removed .

in other words a type 19 kit may of been in the cabinet for yrs ..if you switch to a type 0 game you most likely would have to ram clear anyways to make the game work ..

back to the post last week i made..  seeing brand new IGT machines in a casino . roped off .but running no player contact !
i have stayed at casino's for 2-4 weeks at a time . on vacation and work . watching them set up a new row of 10 slots -20 slots 30 slots etc etc

i normally hit the slot floor in early A.M HOURS to hopefully get good seating and the pick of the litter .
you of course have time to watch the technictions install the slot stand wiring etc . wheel in the slots on dollies etc .
bolt them down turn them on . the faster they do it obviously the less revenue lost ..

but i have noticed once they have been turned on the carpet is clean machines are spit shined .. the yellow tape or rope stays up ??
my only conclusion can be to fine tune player tracking units ? have the master slot tech sign off on a job release form etc . but all the time these machines are running !! the RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR IS RUNNING ALSO !!!

so my guess as i said guess would be the manufacture of the machine advises a run in time of 168 hrs ?? 7-days ==a week ??
or the last time i witnessed this was 4 yrs ago at FOXWOODS CASINO CT. one man in suit opened the door
of each machine behind the NO GO LINE !!! of new slots take out a screwdriver and hit the white test button on comparitor to play a few spins
then . bookeeping came in one last time .. opened each door took the readings installed the log book .

after that it was approx 4:30 a.m. the tape came down the slots were ready for play !!..

i could only conclude on a brand new machine -regardless of the player tracking B/S THE FINE TUNE OF THE SLOT !! CHECK LIST THAT I HAVE THE SAME ONES THEY USED WHEN PUT INTO SERVICE & A REMOVAL CHECK LIST WHEN IT WAS RETIRED WITH TIME AND DATES ETC .

That they left them running for the 168 hrs for all the obvious reasons !!

1-were they set up correct

2.- player tracking work

3-. slot cleaned floor cleaned

4.- no malfunction within the 168 hrs

5. sign off by casino staff

6. numbers recorded for book keeping manually

7.-let that random nymber generator run for 7-days
before someone plays !!

8. is your guess there are retired and active slot techs on the forum see if they chime in to my observation .

BUT BACK TO ORIGINAL POST I MADE THAT A RAM CLEAR WIPES OUT THE MEMORY OF THE SLOT
IT DOES NOT TAKE >>ROCKET SCIENCE << TO BELIVE THAT !! OR CLEAR THE MEMORY CACHE ETC OF THE SLOT

OR WHY WOULD IGT -BALLY ETC ETC EVEN MAKE THE PART TO ERASE MEMORY AND START FRESH TO BEGIN WITH !!

EVERYTHING MADE BY HUMANS HAS A PURPOSE !!  

Very interesting! I always wondered what would happen over time, especially having the machine keeping track of everything like they do. It does seem possible that doing a RAM clear could actually be over kill in some cases, but I also see rocket's point as well and in some cases, it could actually make things better. I for one, am that guy that can't leave well enough alone! If something is working fine, I try and get it to work better and more often than not, I end up wishing that I should have just left well enough alone. My S+ is running great and actually, if history teaches me anything, I better just leave it be. Nonetheless, THANK YOU STATFREAK AND ROCKET for such a detailed explanation! That had to take some time out of your busy schedules to post that up here! If nothing else, I think we can all agree now on what the RAM clearing actually does....

WELL DOWN IN TEXAS !! IN THE HOSPITALS LOL I THOUGHT IT WAS SAYING >>THE PROCTOLOGIST SAID <<< WHEN COMING TO VISIT !!

>> RAM CLEAR<< OUCH !!!

 :124- OUCH!!!  :97-

I know the S+ uses the RNG to pick reel stops from the reel chip.
But why does it hit more often after a ram clear?
If I clear an S+, I can guarantee you it will hit something pretty big within a few thousand spins...everytime!
I have no facts to prove this but it's something I've noticed with S+'s - after doing a clear.
To me, that just blows the whole idea of a RNG.
It does NOT make any sense considering the amount of spins (10,000,000) PAR sheets are generated upon.

When I did a RAM clear on mine, it took 2 years to hit 2nd award. The hit frequency didn't seem to change at all from before the clear, as I had hit the same award a couple months after I got it and it had not beeen cleared when I picked it up. :71- :103-

OK, you guys and your "Livelier", "Crisper response", "Faster spinning", Faster stopping", and "No lag" comments have gotten my engineering side interested. Now I'm thinking of writing a test plan to quantify all these effects, then RAM clear my S+ and see if the testing actually bears out the claims... :186- :214-

THE BOTTOM LINE BRITCHER WE HAVE DRIFTED FROM THE ORIGINAL POST ..OF WHAT THE RAM CLEAR IS MADE FOR !!


ITS SIMPLE MADE TO CLEAR MEMORY WIPE IT CLEAN .SO ANOTHER GAME CAN BE INSTALLED ..

AS FAR AS THE NOTICES WE HAVE ALL NOTICED THAT I EXPANDED ON THROUGH YRS OF DOING IT ON SLOTS>>RAM CLEARS<<< .DOES GO BACK TO WHAT >>>BUNKER SAID IN IDEA<<< IT BLOWS THE ENTIRE IDEA OF THE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR OUT OF THE WATER .


DONT FORGET THATS NOT WHAT THIS POST WAS STARTED FOR !!!  

BUT I HAVE ALWAYS SAID MYTH??? OR LEGEND ???? IF THE MEMORY IS CLEARED AND YOU INSTALL A NEW GAME CHIP AND REEL CHIP !! DOES THE RNG HAVE A START POINT ???


NOW I DONT CLAIM TO BE BY ANY MEANS A EPROM -RNG EXPERT -- IF I WAS I WOULD OF RETIRED 10 YRS AGO NOT 5 YRS AGO STILL UNDER 50 BY A FEW MONTHS LOL   BUT THERE HAS BEEN MUCH TALK OVER THE YRS IS THE RNG REALY RANDOM ??

THEY SAY ITS THE LIFE OF THE MACHINE ?? IS IT ??

ITS CERTAINLY NOT A CHERRY MASTER WITH A SPECIFIED PERCENTAGE PAYOUT THAT WILL HOLD THAT PERCENTAGE OF PAYOUT . BUT CHERRY MASTERS DONT USE RNG . ALTHOUGH I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF CADDILLAC JACK RETRO FIT BOARDS DO ?? SINCE THEY DO RUN THEM IN CASINO'S AND HAVE TO ADHERE TO THE GAMING COMMISION LAWS OF THE STATE IT RESIDES ??


ALOT OF INFO HERE TO DEBATE NOW LOL

IM GOING TO WATCH THIS NOW ..THATS HOW WE LEARN
ROCKET

   I LOVE it!... Mabey we should apply for a goverment grant for "research"  :30-  :79- :79- :79-

ALSO THE GAME YOU PICK TO DO YOUR STUDY ?? IM BEING 100% SERIOUS .. DONT USE A 10XPAY 3-COIN OR A 5X PAY 5 LINE ETC
JUST USE A STANDARD 2-COIN 3-COIN SINGLE PAYLINE RED WHT & BLU .

YOU NEVER MENTIONED WHAT GAME BRITCHER ??THAT YOU RAM CLEARED AND DID NOT HIT SHUUT AFTER 2 YRS ?? OR HOW OFTEN YOU PLAYED OR IF YOU LEFT MACHINE ON 24/7 ETC ETC ..ALL THESE FACTORS COME INTO PLAY ..

OK, So two machines with the same game chip installed and a full RAM clear done.
Plugged into the same electrical power strip and turned on at the same time.

If you press the Max Bet button on both machines at the exact same time, When the reels stop will they both be the same?

ANSWER NO !!

the reel motors on one could be worn more than the other ?? to turn them on at exact time would be only under a laboratory electrical setting !
the mother board on one machine could be weaker than the other the eprom chip speed could be not the same ..to many variables for a answer to that question ..

Well. I don't buy the reel motor worn theory you used, because if it is a RNG it doesn't matter how long it takes to spin or stop since the number has already been picked at the time of pressing the button.

BUT THATS NOT YOUR QUESTION YOU ASKED IF THEY WOULD STOP AT SAME TIME
PLUS IF YOU THINK TWO MACHINES WITH >>TWO RNG ARE GOING TO PICK THE EXACT SAME NUMBER YOUR REALLY A GAMBLER LOL
OK, So two machines with the same game chip installed and a full RAM clear done.
Plugged into the same electrical power strip and turned on at the same time.

If you press the Max Bet button on both machines at the exact same time, When the reels stop will they both be the same?

THINK ABOUT THE QUESTION YOU ASKED NEONKISS

YOU HAVE TWO MACHINES

TWO RNG CHIPS

SAME GAME OR NOT

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THE RNG IS GOING TO PICK THE SAME NUMBER OF SYMBOLS ON BOTH MACHINES ??

THE ODDS OF THAT ARE IN THE BILLIONS

as i posted eraly on on this thread if the memory is packed full same as the broswer cache on your home pc

reload time or spin time of a slot is not going to be the same ..
even on a ram clear of both units using the same game same chip number and chip speed
one machine is going to react faster or slower than the other ..
under the naked eye they may appear to stop at the same time but if you ran a rpm tool on both and a calibration wheel on both
meaning all 6 reels  3-each per machine if you have a strip or reel strip basket out of alignment etc etc you will never notice a true speed of which stops first or if they stop equal
the question is to far out of the common question to ask >>for a plausible answer <<

All of the machines' board components/chips/reels power supply and
wiring connections have to be exactly the same.
My guess would be - brand spanking new perhaps?

The words to describe that way these machines act after a ram clear such as
"Livelier", "Crisper response", "Faster spinning", Faster stopping", and "No lag"
do not need to be laboratory tested...it's simply a matter of "feel"...
I believe that the human brain can do that better than any computer on earth.

Look at like jumping on finely tuned 10-speed bike and something you've had sitting in the back of
your garage for the last 10 years.   
Your brain will sense that the tuned bike is much "Livelier", "Crisper response", "Faster spinning", Faster stopping", and "No lag"
without the aid of any computer technology.
 I believe these men 100%, that they sense  that their S+'s run better after a ram clear...there's no doubt in my mind.

someone needs to contact an actual gaming commission slot lab because I think they have already done the work on this stuff.

No, My questions was in reference to two completely Ram cleared machines that have power applied at exactly the same time. (thru a common power strip) Will the machines be exactly the same after the first spin?
If the RAM clear, establishes a zero point of the machine, (as it's been suggested) Won't the RNG come up with the same reel stops on both machines.

Chances are...they won't spill the beans...

ok you clarified the question etc so i understand what your saying and asking neonkiss ..

LETS SAY HYPOTHETICALLY THE   RNG ON BOTH MACHINES DOES START OFF AT ZERO --FOR HYPOTHETICAL PURPOSES HERE ..

THE ODDS WOULD STILL BE IN THE BILLIONS THAT ONE RANDOM NUMMBER GENERATOR IS GOING TO FOLLOW THE SAME NUMBER PATH OF THE OTHER RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR ..

IF THAT WAS POSSIBLE TO PREDICT ?? YOU COULD PREDICT MANY OTHER THINGS IN LIFE ?? LIKE 2012 ?? LOL

I am going to try the rng t'mrow at the casino's.  I have not been in a while now.  I will try and find some worn out ones as they seem to pay the best-- :103-.  Happy New years to all while it is still "New Year" Day--- :89-

Okay!! Okay!! Can I at least get some K+'s for starting this thread!! LOL!! Seriously though, I often wonder how "Random" the RNG really is. I know just from my experiences that while playing our S+, we have hit the 2nd award jackpot twice in one day, four times in one week. Now, if you look at the PAR sheet for that particular game, the odds were roughly 1 in 200,000 for hitting that prize. Now, if you really believe the odds on that, you feel pretty damn good after hitting it that many times, in that short amount of time. Personally, I have often wondered if you have let's say a 90% chip in it, then how "Random" can it really be, if it's going to hold 10% of the total money put into that machine, over the 10,000,000 pulls? In my eyes, there is nothing random about that. That machine is supposed to hold 10% for the casino, so if it's random, then how in the hell can they predict that? The RNG then must be programmed to work out to keep 10% for the casino. That has always bothered me and my faith in how random the RNG really is, has always been questioned. I too have always felt like there is a starting point to the RNG and it goes from there. Just my feeling though. I'm sure many a slot players, can attest to the fact that these machines seem to pay like mad out of nowhere and then take your money just as fast, as though something starts the winning mode and then something ends it as well.

P.S. The Subject now includes the RNG!! LOL!! So we don't feel guilty about talking about it!! LOL!!

K+ to you for starting this...  :72- :72- :72- :97- :97- :97-  :30- :30- :30-  :79- :79- :79-

I would like to go out on the limb and see what happens with this statement.
It's just for fun and to make one think!>>>

Take for example, you have a 90% chip installed in an S+.
This is the statement...rip it apart to shreds if you'd like...
But I'll guarantee you - It will make you think :72-

[ "The RNG is programmed to read the reel chip paytable for 90% of the winning combinations" ]

True or False?
ok...now, after you've selected an answer, ask yourself - is it truly "random"?

IIRC, the RNG runs the same no matter what the payout percentage is, the payout table and virtual stops are manipulated to create the proper percentage based on random spins from what I've heard. I'm pretty sure StatFreak can set me straight on that point...

BTW, I don't believe the RNG program is in the eprom, I'm pretty sure it's implemented at a lower level. The eproms hold the game characteristics and the payout tables, and the rest is on the processor board, along with the sound chip, etc.

 :214- Note also that software implementations are pseudo random number generators, which start with a seed or key, so they're not truly random. That's the downfall of a software RNG program, it holds true for both slot machines and crypotgraphy applications (which is where I learned the theory behind it  :186-). The way they increase the randomness is by increasing the length of the number, because f the number is shorter, it MUST repeat sooner than a longer string would. If the string is only 1 bit (0 or 1) then it will repeat a lot sooner than a string that is, say, 128 bits.

Maybe we can get Stolistic in here to drop the hammer on the S+ implementation, I'm sure he knows more than I do about that specific application. :131- :131-

See my post, I say it's false. However, according to what I know about software RNGs, they can't be truly random because of the "seed" which is the starting point. I'd be interested to know the string length the RNG in an S+ uses.

A RNG works from a base seed. When I went to school we did similar tests where we had a series of XT PCS and used the same seed value to step through the ring and each of the computers generated the exact same numbers over and over again. To get a divergence from the results we used the current TIME as our base seed. We ran through about 20,000 numbers before we started to get divergence and the explanation was that the clock frequency between the PCs were flawed.

To get a truly random number we needed to introduce a human element to the equation. In our case we still used time as our seed however the number was only picked when we hit the enter key. So in practice the time seed was different in each case as no two people were able to hit the enter key at the exact same 100'th of a second.

It would be my belief that if we had two slots and had control over the hardware we could generate the exact same random numbers for some period of time until we got divergance based on the clock frequency. I do not believe that anyone without this control could ever generate the same set of results. Certainly no one would be able to do something as simple as a Ram Clear, power on and spin to generate the identical number set.

Your understanding of the RNG is the same as mine, if you can control the time the output will be identical until a difference between the platforms is evident.

Now, where's Jim to answer my question about the string length?

<edit>


Had to edit my other posts, spelling was horrendous!

To the next extreme, would the length of any cabling between the circuits/buttons have any effect on this, i.e. amount of time taken for electricity to travel along cabling if you were running the same machines?

In a copper conductor, the signal is approximately .95C. So, the cabling length difference would have to be huge, because the time division in an internal clock on the slot machine just isn't that granular.

 :59- :59- :59- :59- :59- :205- :205- :205- :59- :59- :59- :59-

THIS ONE REALLY GOT SOME POST LAST NIGHT

BEWTWEEN;
 ROCKET
 BRITCHER
 NEONKISS
 5ACES
 BUNKER
ETC ETC WE WERE ON FIRE LOL

somewhere i have the complete technical explanation of the RNG in true scientific reading .. its lengthy to say the least .
it still boils down to all the questions posted --- a ram clear only clears the memory of said slot for the purpose of solving error codes that wont disapear or to game change at times that wont except a different game and most important to just clean the memory out 100% . thats it

NOW RNG -- the random number generator runs as soon as power is given to the machines main board .. it starts there counting counting etc .. in the perfect world talk .. ya no B/S LOL

it counts numbers combinations etc when you hit the buttonto play the electrical slotmachine !! it locks in the numbers it has picked which produces the outcome of the reel postions
on the given game in the slot cabinet !!.. it does this and the percentage is based on the life of the slot !!now going from the memory of the tech paper i have in the file somewhere ?? i have no clue ??lol the life of machine is based on a time of millions of spins of the game . to give what we know as par sheets to say ok this one does this this one does that etc etc .

as far as ram clearing affecting the random number generator it does not !!

I never said it did i dont think any previous post member did !!

WE DID OBSERVE AFTER A FULL RAM CLEAR & INSTALATION OF THE NEW GAME& REEL CHIP GLASS STRIPS ETC .. THAT THE RESPONSE TIME OF THE SLOT IN QUESTION !!
DRASTICALLY SPEED UP IN ALL WAYS !!

 meaning if you read the early part of this thread my statement i think was >>ALL ITEMS << speed up as in reel speed start/ stop credits in credits out --this was noted by me on the post of having wittnessed this myself on a 5-line double diamond with 88% payout chip on nickels for I know over 5 yrs that had enough nickel grindings on the floor of slot to fill a 2-oz. container .after i ram cleared that slot it was like it turned from turtle to a rabbit with speed of operation .

so to finalize this for a bit

WHAT DOES A RAM CLEAR DO ?
THE RAM CLEAR IS TO CLEAR MEMORY OF THE MAIN & MOTHER BOARD ONLY !


DOES THE RAM CLEAR AFFECT THE RNG REEL CHIP ?? ANSWER COULD ONLY BE NO !!your not clearing the random number generator -but you are giving it a clean plate to go from !!!


LAST -DOES A RAM CLEAR SPEED UP A MACHINE THAT HAS NOT BEEN RAM CLEARED??>>>>> ANSWER IS NO !!<<<<<<

IT DOES HOWEVER PUT THE MACHINE BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL SPEED WHICH WAS FASTER THAN IT WAS BEFORE THE RAM CLEAR !!

THIS MAY CLEAR UP ALL THE TALK OF RAM CLEARING MAKING MACHINE RUN FASTER ETC --

if i find the file of the scientific explanation of the RNG i will post it . but it is lengthy !!
i hope there are no hard feelings to any of the members that i banntered with back and fourth last night  :30- :30- :30- this is how we all learn tossing out plausible ideas ??
and some non plausible ideas ?? and some ideas just off the wall  :244- :244- :244- :244-

rocket

Wow i read this whole thread and i have to absolutely agree with
Stat Freak. You guys just don't understand how the S+ board
system is designed or the components that it uses.

First off, STOP comparing the EEPROM or the RAM chip to Cache
in your computer!  That is just, well, silly. It's not the same.
It's apples and oranges.

The cache in your computer is not a pre-determined size like
an EEPROM ST24C04. This chip is very small in capacity. It "fills up"
the first time it's written to. Only 2 blocks of 256 x8 bits of data.
That's less than 1k of data!

Look at the datasheet. It explains it A LOT better than i can!
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/134/80442_DS.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/134/80442_DS.pdf)

The other RAM (volatile RAM, powered by the battery) is
also frankly quite small. That's a 6264 RAM, 8192 words by 8 bits.
That's not a big RAM either, about 8k of data. That's K not Meg!
Data sheet here:
http://web.mit.edu/6.115/www/datasheets/6264.pdf (http://web.mit.edu/6.115/www/datasheets/6264.pdf)

These RAMs don't "fill up". THEY ARE ALWAYS FULL!  From
the first time the game is power up to the last time, there
is EXACTLY the same amount of data in these chips.
The same memory locations as addressed by the hardware
are just overwritten.

Stat Freak was exactly correct in his explanation.

Memory cache in your computer's browser is basically unlimited,
only dictated by the size of your hard drive. Well that's a slight
exaggeration, but it's close to the mark.

This thing with 'performance' being better after a RAM clear,
that just doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you really want to prove your point, i guess you would need
to set up benchmarks and measurable things before and after
a clear. That's the only way i'm gonna believe the goofy
position that these games' memory "fills up".

wel im sorry CFH
I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU &  Stat again for the question that was asked on >>THE ORIGINAL POST <<

the original post was >>WHAT DOES A RAM CLEAR DO <<<<

after Statfreaks lengthy explanation & comment its used way to often i posted to him I respectfully disagree !!

perhaps your missing the ORIGINAL QUESTION CFH ??

WHAT DOES A RAM CLEAR DO ?
THE RAM CLEAR IS TO CLEAR MEMORY OF THE MAIN & MOTHER BOARD ONLY !  THATS THE PURPOSE OF THAT CHIP MADE BY IGT IN THIS CASE !!

DOES THE RAM CLEAR AFFECT THE RNG OR REEL CHIP ?? ANSWER COULD ONLY BE NO !!>>>>>>>your not clearing the random number generator >>>>

but you are giving it a clean plate to go from !!!

NOW I HAVE SERVICED IGT S+ MACHINES FOR 15+ YRS MYSELF
DOES A RAM CLEAR SPEED UP A MACHINE THAT HAS NOT BEEN RAM CLEARED??>>>>> ANSWER IS NO !!<<<<<<

IT DOES HOWEVER PUT THE MACHINE BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL SPEED WHICH WAS FASTER THAN IT WAS BEFORE THE RAM CLEAR !!

THIS MAY CLEAR UP ALL THE TALK OF RAM CLEARING MAKING MACHINE RUN FASTER ETC --

as far as your saying the main board or mother board of a S+ not getting clogged up with info ??  I hate to say it does !!

if the main board & mother board never got clogged with stored information -->> the RAM CLEAR CHIP WOULD NEVER OF BEEN INVENTED !!

I am sorry ..i stick by my findings & my observations from reading most every manual on the s+ and the best training possible HANDS ON TRAINING 15+ YRS ON THOSE ALONE

It seems that no one actually knows where the RNG is actually located on the MPU board anyways.
I never thought it was in the reel chip...
I only stated that the RNG read data "FROM" the reel chips' paytable arrangement.
Where the actual RNG program is located is anyones guess...
it could be located in the AYxxx sound chip for all I know...LOL
I'm suspecting that it's located in microprocessor chip though.

Okay , off the RNG for a minute and back to the original question...LOL

I always thought the Clear chip re-routed electricity to the two memory chips
( the motherboards' 24C04 and MPU's CMOS ) via certain socket legs
to energize all the internal chips' gates to a "1"?

:212-

As Jay said, if two identical RNGs are initially seeded with the same vale, they will run the same series of outcomes, but as Jay also said, even if one used computer precision to check the current values at specific intervals, the two systems would slowly drift out of sync due to the slight differences in the clock speed of the computers. These differences are caused by slight physical differences in the clock crystals, in the manufacture of the hardware and components, and operating temperature differences.

The most important statement that Jay made is the addition of the HUMAN FACTOR. In gaming design, it is called Player Initiated Action (PIA). PIA is what ultimately makes slot machines truly random: no one can time their actions down to milliseconds. PIA would cause the two hypothetical machines' RNGs to become significantly divergent after only a few plays.



 :212-

Now that nails it on the head cfh. :3- :3-

If you want to satisfy me that there is a difference in performance, you will need to gather empirical data, not inferential observation. Set up independent optical sensors at the outermost diameter of each of the reel baskets and report their RPMs to a PC which records them.

Use an automatic play system (Bunker's car alarm autoplay, for example) to consistently spin the machines as quickly as the slot makes a new spin available and use another separate monitor to time the delay between the end of the previous spin and the beginning of the next spin. Connect this monitor to your PC for historical data recording. To do this will require you to have an electronic monitor on the MPU board to determine when the machine finishes its spin cycle (pun intended) since some spins will result in winning payouts. The delay between spins must not include payout time. Keep in mind that the system is designed to have inconsistent spin times (from start of spin until the last reel stops).

Use an electronic timer to determine how fast credits are being added to the meter (credits per second) during winning payouts and tie that to the PC for historical data recording.

Record several thousand spins worth of data before the clear, and then again after the clear. Compare the results and report back.

---

Regarding the assertion made by many techs that these machines are more likely to hit a top prize after a clear, or within some specified time frame following a clear (I have heard stories ranging from 24 hours to 168 hours), there is a possibility  that the RNG might  be more likely to choose certain number combinations early in its cycle following a reseed.

However, consider that every game theme (and even some different chips within a single game) puts the jackpot symbols at different virtual stops. In plain English, the specific set of three numbers required from the RNG to get a jackpot on one game are completely different from the three numbers needed to get a jackpot on another game.

Let me repeat that for those in the nosebleed section: The specific set of three numbers required from the RNG to get a jackpot on one game are completely different from the three numbers needed to get a jackpot on another game.

Explain to my satisfaction how the RNG will produce more jackpots on various games immediately following a clear, given the above statement.

To prove your point, set up the following experiment:
Get 100 S pluses that have not been cleared and have at least 1,000,000 games of "memory" and install the same game and reel chips on all of them.
Set up automatic play and record the outcomes of 150,000 successive pulls* on each of these machines.
Clear all 100 machines.
Set up automatic play and record the outcomes of the first 150,000 successive pulls* on each of these machines following the clear.
Demonstrate that the payouts on the newly cleared machines are statistically higher (>1 SD) than the pre-clear payouts and
Demonstrate that the payouts on the newly cleared machines are outside the expected 90% confidence rate return for the reel chip used (Okay, for you purists, calculate and use a 95% confidence value, which is an established standard.)

*150,000 based on 900/hour at 168 hours.

thats a nice reply stat ,
but to answer the original question that started this madness was addressed by me !!
the

THE RAM CLEAR CHIP --SIMPLY CLEARS THE MEMORY STORED ON THE MAIN BOARD & MOTHER BOARD -NO LENGTHY EXPLANATION NEEDED !!

as far as the statement you said its used to often I STILL DISAGREE WITH YOU only from a tech hands on working on the S+ FOR 15 + YRS

when it went to the>>> RNG does a ram clear GIVE THE RANDON NUMBER GENERATOR A NEW START POINT ?

I answered that before Jay last night in my post along with today . THAT NO TWO RNG'S  are going to track the same number sequence regardless of the human factor !!if you retrace my post .

as far as the speed of machine increasing after a ram clear -- I WENT THE EXTRA TYPE ..posted answer is no !! BUT IT WILL RETURN THE MACHINE TO OPTIMOM SPEED --THAT WAS SLOWER BEFORE THE RAM CLEAR .

as far as the main board or mother board not getting full of info or clogged .. thats totally rediculous not to think it does not happen !! with coin in coin out bill in re-sets power offs power on etc it does dont act like it does not .. yes i concede its not as like the home pc cache being cleared that was mentioned for understanding purposes . but its a clear of information on a smaller basis non the less ..

i hope this was not as lengthy and easy to understand as my brother members post above !

I'd like to perform the 100 machine test...
but I'd need a government grant to get that many machines... :96-

STOP OVER BUNKER  ,
I WILL LET YOU SET UP 100 IGT S+ MACHINES

you break any glass you become a DEXTER VICTIM LOL

I will sit in my directors chair & even do a live video feed to NLG as you mess up my game room or burn my house down lol

DEAL OR NO DEAL ??

NO DEAL!
That's a major undertaking...LOL
I'm NOT getting into that!
I'll be constructing "Auto-Play" relay switches until the next millennium!
I have enough snuff on my plate! :72-

But I'll still take on chance on some venison stew? LOL

This is a great post guys!  :72- :72-
You need Myth Busters help.

Listen to Stat, he has it right.
And let me add one more thing. In my Uni programs, and I would think the same for IGT, you have a virtual stop table for each reel. The RNG is really selecting three address locations. (sort of like throwing a dart at a map or grid) One in each table. What is at that address is the stop location on the reel. Only after the program reads that selected address does it determine what symbol it has chosen.    
Most Uni games have the jackpot at the same address, hmmm, but I see IGT has jackpot symbols at various locations. Therefore, they would be at various addresses in the virtual stop table for each game

I can't think of a reason why a machine would run "crisper", "faster", etc, after a ram clear.  :103-

And older Uni's use a chip N82S123AN to help generate a psuedo-random number. - I believe

What you need to do is have four machines. Clear the ram on machines #1 & #2. Do not clear the ram on #3 & #4. Then tell four players that machines #2 and #4 have had their ram cleared. Have the four players play each machine and record the outcomes and the players opinions of how each game played.
I would wager they would select machines #2 and #4 as playing better, faster.

Again, great post!

Nice post UNI!
However, there's only question burning in my mind as I read and re-read these posts.
Where's the RNG program located at?
Could it be a mini Vanna White in a chip device turning 3 tiles? :72- :97- :208-

I'm failing to see how data on a RAM or CMOS chip would slow down a stepper motor.


Rocket, can you explain this statement?

I'm wondering if clogged data on both the CMOS and the 24C04 motherboard chip
contribute to the microprocessor's search speeds, thereby in turn,
slow down the time it takes to send signals up to the stepper motor's?

The line of thinking is pretty much the same as they way the cursor acts,
page loading, and other things like photo-processing in a bogged down,
over-worked microprocessor in a home computer?

or how about this...too many clothes in a washing machine?
Maybe an inadequate Martha's Vineyard power-grid placed in a city the size of Manhattan? :72-

Stat, can you explain the following statement?


Does a RAM clear change the seed of the RNG?

You should read the post by Stat and cfh concerning the content of the RAM and CMOS. These are finite-content devices, so there is not more or less data in them at any given time. The data is always there, the only thing that changes is the value of the data. it's not like the cache on a browser that starts empty then grows from 0 bytes to several tens or hundreds of megabytes.

There was a big investigation into this a while back, not sure if it was before or after the upgrade.

Good answer! Thanks Brichter! :3-

I wish someone had a better explanation than Rocket's posts
as to why an old S+ works better after the clear chip is performed?

I think the jury's still out on that one... I for one have not noticed a difference after I cleared my machine. That's why I'm interested in testing it.

With your luck...we might have to wait two more years for you to hit the jackpot... :96-

(just pulling your leg...lol)

I performed a Clear on a S+ machine that had over 78 million games (pulls)
registered in the statistical data meters.
(I just wanted to get smaller numbers to write into my logbooks...LOL)
I would like to ask the regular players how they like the machine...
I won't know what they think until Monday afternoon.
I will report my findings then.
Let's see if they hit the jackpot by then...LOL

OH GOD NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!










 :208- :208- :208- :208- :208-

If you look at a PAR sheet it shows that a game is more likely to hit a JP when it is first set up than after 1000 spins

I think you're talking about the 90% confidence figures, but I'm not sure that's what it says... I'm not a statistician, but those numbers refer to the fact that a single decent sized hit can skew the percentages pretty greatly because there's less non-winning outcomes to offset the wins.

Think of it this way: What's the payback percentage if you hit an 80 credit payout after 3 pulls? Let's say you pull the handle another 20 times and don't win a thing, what's the payout percentage at that point? :89-

StatFreak to the mezzanine, please...

ok im in from plowing my driveway of 8-inches of snow that did not go to CANADA !!! :25- :25-

ok remember me !! i cant spell worth a shoot !! i rarely use spell checker  deal with me or ignore !!

second im trying to answer BRITCHERS QUESTION & BUNKERS QUESTION
BUT I FEEL BUNKER HIT THE NAIL ON HEAD

THIS WAS HIS POST QUOTE ::

===============================================================
I'm wondering if clogged data on both the CMOS and the 24C04 motherboard chip
contribute to the microprocessor's search speeds, thereby in turn,
slow down the time it takes to send signals up to the stepper motor's?

The line of thinking is pretty much the same as they way the cursor acts,
page loading, and other things like photo-processing in a bogged down,
over-worked microprocessor in a home computer?
=====================================================

I ROCKET AGREE WITH THAT ABOVE !!  NOW MY G-FRIEND/WIFE IS GOING TO KILL ME
THIS EVENING IF SHE SAYS

ALL I SEE IS THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD HONEY TYPING AWAY !!!

I AM GOING TO GO THROUGH MY MANUALS & NOTES FROM IGT DATING BACK 20 YRS ..
I HAVE A ENTIRE ARTICLE ON THE INVENTION & USE OF THE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR !!

if i find it ?? it will be like getting the big  "0" lol it explains in detail all the answers to all the questions posted and then some !!

as far as speed of machine statement. I made after a ram clear !! I thought i put a end to the thinking that it actually made the machine
do double time /warp speed /a buck-380mph/ all the slang terms for fast-er .

I STATE AGAIN AFTER A RAM CLEAR ON SAID >>HYPOTHETICAL MACHINE << THAT WAS RUN FOR 5 YEARS --WAS A 5-LINE GAME DOUB DIAMOND ON NICKELS
RUNNING A 88% CHIP . THAT I HAD DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE FROM THE LOG BOOK FROM DAY ONE ENTRY -TO DAY EMPTIED OUT OF THE LOOT AT CASINO
THAT NO WHERE WAS SAID IN THE LOG BOOK ANY RAM CLEAR HAD EVER BEEN DONE IN 5 YRS .. WHEN I FIRST WENT TO PLAY THE MACHINE IT WAS SLOW REEL SPEED ETC .

I PERFORMED A RAM CLEAR TWICE IN 12-15  MINUTES -- I THEN REPLACED THE FACTORY EPROM ETC SET UP MACHINE AND PLAYED IT !!
IT WAS BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUGHT .THAT THE MACHINE WAS FASTER THAN BEFORE !!

 BUT TO INTERPRET MY CLAIM OF THIS OBSERVATION :

 ITS NOT FASTER IN REAL LIFE AS IN SOME SPECIAL 10 MPH WAS ADDED TO THE REEL SPIN -SPEED .

IT WAS JUST RETURNED TO THE SPEED IT HAD WHEN NEW !!! IF THAT PART CAN BE UNDERSTOOD BY MEMBERS ..IT GETS US AWAY FROM MYTH BUSTERS ..LOL

as far as hitting jackpots said by other members it happened other members it did not happen .. BUT NOBODY HAS CHIMMED IN AND SAID WHAT S+ GAME WAS IN THERE MACHINE
WHEN THIS WAS DONE ??


WE ALL KNOW THAT PLAYING A 2-COIN MAX BET WITH TOP AWARD OF 2000 COINS  IS GOING TO HAVE A HIT FREQUENCY HIGHER THAN A 3-COIN MULTIPLIER GAME THAT HAS A TOP AWARD OF 25,000.00 THATS A NO BRAINER --GIVEN THE FACT THEY BOTH RUN LETS SAY FOR HYPOTHETICAL PURPOSES A 95 % CHIP .


so we should note manny facts have not been disclosed on what game hit jackpots right after a ram clear ??

this thread is far from over lol

rocket

Ok, my machine is DD Haywire.

low top award theres one  thank you .

 :103- WOW!! I got up today and thought I was in the wrong forum, because of the number of posts! This is great, having all of this information/debate on the subject! If anything, I can say this: I belong to a fairly large number of forums that cover a broad range of things. BY FAR, the members in the NLG forums are without a doubt some of the most thorough, knowledgeable and generous people I have ever seen! Owning my S+ and knowing the knowledge base that resides here on NLG, is better than any customer service out there! I know from reading the posts on this subject, there are a lot of members that are looking to find the Holy Grail on wheather or not the RNG is really "fair" or "random" so to speak. I know that question plays in my mind every time I'm in a casino, or when I catch a glimpse of how full the money drawer is behind the cashier cage, or how full the hopper's are when a tech happens to open up a machine!  :97- It's my gut feeling that had this forum been around to challenge the RNG back in the day of it's invention, we may all be discussing a totally different method of "randomness" today. But for what it's worth, I for one still have the feeling the RNG is not as "random" as it's made out to be! I'm going to do the RAM clear on my machine in a few days. We have over 4000 credits on it now, so I don't want to wipe them away just yet. I'll make sure and post the kit I install and any other differences that I can observe.

way back in the begining of this thread I stated the above.. (BTW 93 percent payback)  :5-  :79-

The confidence value section of the PAR sheet seems to give laymen more trouble than any other. The figures there most definitely DO NOT suggest that the machine is more likely to hit anything or pay out more often during the first 1000 pulls, 10,000 pulls, or any other pulls. They are a measure of volatility over a given set of trials.

Let's take a look at SS4633.

Red White & Blue, 3cm, 96.23% 64 stop paytable.

The first line indicates that this table is based on 90% confidence values. This means that 90% of the time, the machine will fall into these ranges. What is also means is that 10% of the time it will fall outside of these ranges.

Now look at the first line in the table:

1000.

44.29

148.18

What this line tells us is that FOR ANY TRIAL OF 1000 SPINS, 90% of the time, the machine will pay back between 44.29% and 148.18%.

It DOES NOT state that only the FIRST 1000 pulls will payback in this range, but that ANY ARBITRARY SAMPLE of 1000 spins will be within this range most of the time (but 10% of the time, the results will still be outside these ranges.)

The purpose of these figures is to give an operator an understanding of the volatility of that particular game. They can also be used to look for problems.

Let's say that a casino had 20 RWB machines with this chip installed and they wanted to check to be sure that the machines were running properly and not paying out too little or too much. Let's say that they started tracking the machines after they had been installed for six months. That is, they started counting spins from that point.

After tracking 100,000 spins for each of the 20 machines, they they might then look at this table and see that for a sample of 100,000 pulls, 90% of the machines would be expected to pay out somewhere between 91.04% and 101.43%. 90% of 20 is 18 machines.

So, if 18 out of their 20 machines had total payouts within the range of 91.04% to 101.43%, that would tell them that the machines were operating within expected parameters. Keep in mind that 2 of the 20 machines could still show as paying out more than 101.43% or less than 91.04% and this would still be considered normal. If they found, for example, that 6 of their 20 machines had paid out more than 101.43% or less than 91.04%, that would suggest that something was wrong and would most likely trigger an audit and an overhaul of the machines by a tech.

Can I take a crack at it?

If it was 1 coin per pull and you did 3 pulls , and the house paid out 80 coins,
then I would say that the  payout percentage at that point would be 2,666.67%.

Now after 23 coins and games played/pulls...
the House Take would amount to 57 coins with a payout percentage of 347.83%.
The Hit Frequency at that point would be 1 in 23 with the average bet of 1 coin per pull.

Bunker, I beat you by ONE second !!   HA HAHA  :200- :200- :208- :208- :208- :208-

holy crappers that's close Stat! lol...
were my numbers right?

ADD>> I used the modified Statistical Data excel sheets devised last year
to try and answer Brichter's question.

There's one what?

Yup. Now look at the difference between the payout percentage difference between 3 pulls and 23 pulls. That's the reason why the low and high percentages in the 90% confidence start out with a large divergence and and come closer to the expected percentage the more pulls there are, because there are more samples to use in the calculation.


Stat, you may only have beaten him by one second, but you typed a whole lot more than he did! :72- :72- :72-

Yes, but I believe that you meant to say that the house take would be minus 57 coins, or that player would still be ahead by 57 coins. :88-

By the way, while we're on the subject, IGT's "Volatility Index" is just an arbitrary number that they use as a yard stick by which to compare games. It is simply the 90% divergence value for 10,000 pulls.

Again using the example of the RWB SS4633:

PAYBACK 96.23%
VOLATILITY INDEX =   16.427

       10000.         79.81            112.66

96.23 -  16.427 =   79.803  (the discrepancy is due to rounding errors)
96.23 + 16.427 = 112.657

This is how PA sees it:

http://www.dgsweb.state.pa.us/CMSUploads/vod/cms_asx_generator.asp?videoname=093008_progam_gamingcontrolboard_randomnumbergenerator_2.wmv (http://www.dgsweb.state.pa.us/CMSUploads/vod/cms_asx_generator.asp?videoname=093008_progam_gamingcontrolboard_randomnumbergenerator_2.wmv)

http://www.dgsweb.state.pa.us/CMSUploads/vod/cms_asx_generator.asp?videoname=093008_progam_gamingcontrolboard_commonmyths_3.wmv (http://www.dgsweb.state.pa.us/CMSUploads/vod/cms_asx_generator.asp?videoname=093008_progam_gamingcontrolboard_commonmyths_3.wmv)

This first video was on track but the second video...LOL She's a bloody liar!!!!
I love the way she never mentioned the capabilities of a server-based machine.

Yes...thank you Stat!
I should have typed some parentheses around the
"57" sort of like this (57) or mark the "57" in red ink...LOL

I guess they still use S+es in PA... :208- :208- :208- :208-

That question is best answered by Stolistic.  :81-

I was speaking to the urban legend (or perhaps, as yet unproven truth :103-) that these machines cough up more jackpots immediately following a clear than at other times.

The thing that sticks in my craw about this debate is that even IF (and it's a big IF) the RNG somehow proves to be less random after an initial seed, it's not clear to me how that translates to jackpots when different games would require different RNG outcomes to yield their top prizes.

As I understand it, the RNG uses bit shifting against a polynomial, similar to the way that checksums are calculated, to produce double precision floating point values of n where 0 >= n < 1. In actuality, these numbers are represented in binary, of course.

As a programmer, if I want an integer between 0 and 63 for a 64 stop machine, there are a few ways to get a result. One way would be to multiply the random number returned by 64 and truncate the result. A person would not want to multiply by 63 and round the result, because the values of 0 and 64 would be half as likely to occur that way. Another (and better IMO) way would be to multiply the random number returned by an arbitrarily large number, perform Modulo division by 64, and take the remainder.

As has been stated earlier in the thread, the machine runs through random values between 0 and 1 tens of thousands of times per second or more as long as the machine is powered and in idle mode. On an S-Plus, the computer polls the RNG for three values at the instant that the player takes the first action to initiate a game (presses "bet max", presses "bet one", or drops a coin into the comparitor that is accepted).  The player’s action is the truly randomizing event.

The computer program looks at the reel chip in a specific memory location for a single hex value that represents the number of virtual stops for that game, which the program uses to convert the three random numbers into "integers" between 0 and n, where n is the number (in hex) found in the reel chip, by using one of the standard approved methods such as those that I mentioned above (most likely the modulo division, but perhaps something else. It doesn't matter much as long as the method creates evenly distributed integers across the range of desired results.) Let's call the three integers I, J, and K.

The program then looks up position I in the reel chip virtual stop table listing for strip number one, J in the virtual stop table for strip 2, and K in the virtual stop table for strip 3. At this point, the program STILL doesn't know what the "symbols" are or what the outcome is! The values retrieved from the virtual stop tables are pointers that reference another table containing the numbers that correspond to the physical stop “symbols”.

I'm not going to take this further, but suffices to say that in order to hit the jackpot, the RNG has to return three values in order which, when converted into integers covering the range of virtual stops for the chip installed, yields the three integers matching the virtual stops that correspond to the jackpot symbols.

Consider this scenario:
1. A game with 64 virtual stops, like RWB. SS4633 with one winning combination.
    The magic numbers (in decimal) are 24, 24, 23.

2. The same game with 200 virtual stops. RWB SS7115 with two winning combinations.
    The magic numbers (in decimal) are 62, 65, (67/68)

3. Another game with 64 stops, Haywire SS4079 with eight winning combinations.
    The magic numbers (in decimal) are (10/46), (9/43), (11/45)

In each case, the RNG returned 0.574168647, 0.900696219, 0.037847008


I’m going to arbitrarily multiply each random number by 1,000,000, take the truncated integer and do modulo division.

For the machines with 64 stops, I get:
574168 / 64 = 8971 remainder 24.
900696 / 64 = 14073 remainder 24.
37847 / 64 = 591 remainder 23.

Well what do you know? I got the jackpot on the RWB SS4633. Unfortunately, I got nothing on the Haywire SS4079.

For the machine with 200 stops, I get:
574168 / 200 = 2870 remainder 168.
900696 / 200 = 4503 remainder 96.
37847 / 200 = 189 remainder 47.

Nothing here for the 200 stop RWB7115. Sorry folks.

The same RNG outcome produced three markedly different results for three different chips.

Now explain to me again how the RNG must have some limited pattern during it’s first hours after a clear that leads to more jackpots.. :30- :30-

I dunno...it just does!...LOL

just kidding ya Stat... :96-

Thanks for giving us your mathematical viewpoint on the way the RNG works.
That post and this entire thread should be a sticky because something else
will be discovered within our lifetimes that will shed more light on this I'm sure...

It would be neat for someone like stolistic or channelmaniac
to give us their technical viewpoint on how the RNG works...
combine the two and we will have the answer!

WHAT!!!
Please explain!!!!
And while you're at it, please explain why Al Gore is your hero?

Who's Al Gore? LOL

She's probably alright...she's just a pretty face reading a script given to her... :200-

She states they must change a chip to change the percentage.

I'm attaching the base program paytable for an SB000070, note it shows 10 different paytable IDs with 10 different percentages from 83.76% all the way to 98.05%. All of these are selectable via the menu, no chip change necessary. I think that's what Bunker was referring to when he stated she was lying.

I doubt seriously she was lying, she just didn't have a clue as to the veracity of the facts she was given.

<edit> forgot the attachment... :200-

I do not know when these videos were made. The PGCB is like the DMV, control 2010 with 1985 rules!

 :72- :97- :208- :97- :72- :200-

Thank you for clearing that up Brichter...!
You were right...she was not lying...she just doesn't know.
I was just exaggerating the video and her points...
like I said - "just a pretty face reading a script"... :72-
Reho's got a point there though...
The video may have been made before the multi-paytable chips came out.
or, she just plain didn't know about them.
Can anyone tell from the video what year those machines were she was pulling the handle on?

Looks like newer technology than S+, at any rate...

Yea! It looks like a "Monopoly" standalone machine behind her...
Look at that yellow bill acceptor...fairly modern...is that machine made by Williams?

Thor777, stayouttadabunker, edski, brichter, Buzz, Neonkiss, lonnie, uniman, ROCKET, lowflight, TZtech, theDotster, slots4home, Stolistic, harp, Ozzy, Bettor Slots and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.

This is a HOT topic !  :38- :192- :19- ...  It doesn't get much better than this! ... A thread to be remembered  :96-

  You guys are WAY beyond me in this discussion... I am going to drop out and watch the Fallout  :5-

Now it's only:

StatFreak, edski, brichter, Buzz, Neonkiss, lonnie, uniman, ROCKET, lowflight, TZtech, theDotster, slots4home, Stolistic, harp, Ozzy, Bettor Slots and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.

The topic seems to be fizzling out... :47-  :25-   :208- :208- :208-



<EDIT>
Oh wait, Thor777 and stayouttadabunker came back. That makes it:

StatFreak, stayouttadabunker, Thor777, edski, brichter, Buzz, Neonkiss, lonnie, uniman, ROCKET, lowflight, TZtech, theDotster, slots4home, Stolistic, harp, Ozzy, Bettor Slots and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.

Maybe my fizzle drizzle was premature. :96- Now if we could just get those guests back...  :79-

I know...we ran outta viewpoints... :96-
The east coast is going to bed... :149-
It was fun really! g'night! :3- :244-

THAT's IT!! The RNGs on the East coast are more conservative than the liberal RNGs on the West coast!! I knew  that there had to be an explanation. :30- :30-
 :208- :208- :208-

Oh, wait. It's the Easterners that are saying that the RNG is more liberal when it's young, and the Westerners that are saying it's not.  :25-  :7-
That shoots that theory all to Hell. :126- :182- :125-

PA only got slot parlors about 2 years ago so the multi-denominations and variable percentages were certainly available.

Before that if you wanted to play slots you had to drive to Wheeling West Virginia. From the north side of Pittsburgh this was about a 25min drive.

The truth behind the scenes is that there is no magic buton in anyones office and the effort to manipulate a entire slot parlors %% payback for the weekend would kill off all profit due to the labor involved.

This does however poise the question: I wonder if SAS could be used to change slot settings without a floor visit ? I know it can be used for coupon validation (for TITO in) so the communication is bi-directional. I really want a casino management platform for my basement !!

Wait!...Lemme look in my files...Nope, I don't have that one... :96-

My guess is that program doesn't come cheap!  :72-


I want one too! :37- :8-

OK here's the deal:

Everything Stat has said, is correct (for the S+ and PE+).  The processor on the S+ is running a RNG via the same software found on the program chip.  The 8032/52 processor does not have any sort of native way to get a random number via a special opcode or seed.  This means the random numbers produced are strictly from a mathematical formula found on the program chip.

I have written my own RNG in the PE+ (which is the same processor as the S+).  The only way to do so, is via bit shifting and use of the parity bit to allow for some nice wild fluctuations.

There is no way to seed (or produce a starting number) based off of the system time or such, since there is no such thing on this processor.  That means all random numbers begin from the same starting point (on a ram clear).  Additional starting points when the machine is restarted etc, come from the last saved number in RAM.

If you could record the first 50 numbers from the RNG, you would see they are always the same "predictable" numbers based on a formula.  Like Stat said, these are derived from bit shifting a number over and over again.  Now realize (like Stat said), these numbers are changing thousands of times per second.  So granted, two machines with identical software, and clock crystal speeds, fully ram cleared would produce the same numbers (if recorded).  But a human being could never press the button at the exact same time to produce the same results.  And getting two machines to run at the same speed is also nearly impossible.  Writing results to RAM during a spin etc could be slightly slower on one or the other and there are just too many components on the board that allow for variances.  And the RNG is always running, via processor interrupt routines.  Pressing the button does not make a routine run to pick the next number, it just looks at a specific location in memory which has been changing thousands of times per second and fetches that value.

So to answer 1 question.  Does a RAM clear affect the RNG?  The answer is Yes.  In the grand scheme of things, does it matter? No.  You will never produce the same spins back to back, no matter how long you try.

Thank you Stolistic for filling in the final piece. :131- :131- :3- :3-

Outstanding explanation!   :131-  :244-

Now, to the last questions.

1) Does the content of RAM/CMOS changing have any effect onn the way the machine performs, and could a RAM clear make the machine behave differently as far as performance (or any of the other adjectives used earlier)? I don't see how this would be possible, since those addresses are well-defined, unlike a PC's  browser cache which can grow or shrink as needed. it would seem that the RAM and CMOS addresses are fixed, and the only thing that changes are the values stored there.

2) Is it any more likely to hit a jackpot just after a RAM clear? From the discussions we've had in the past, I don't see how this would be possible, but there are some who have experiences that would seem to contradict this.