Bell wont stop ringing after payout

[brettno1]

This has me stumped.  I checked everything I know to check (switches etc) but can't figure out what's causing this.  Here's the problem:
I have an 831 (3 line JPO) and the bell wont stop ringing after a payout until I pull the handle to start another spin.  When I first got the machine about a week ago, the bell would contiune to ring for about a minute after the payout and then stop, but now it just stays on (until the next spin).  This tells me that a switch/coil that was sticking before, is now staying completely closed. 

From my basic understanding of the machine, it would have to be the hopper that de-energizes the bell, since the bell should stop at the end of the payout.  However, I dont see any sticky switches on the hopper, and the hopper pays correctly.  In fact everything else works at it should.  I also tried a test last night:  With the bell ringing I pullout the hopper - the bell kept ringing.  I pulled out the top unit - the bell kept ringing.  I pulled out the reel mech -  the bell stopped.  I immediately thought the problem was with the reel mech, but looking at it, I dont see any problems with the switches.  Also, how could the hopper signal anything on the reel mech that a pay had finished?  What switch would it open?

I realize that this is a very small issue and one that is probably easily fixed.  Not being able to figure it out is bothering me more than the problem itself!  Any ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[Amachanic]

Hi... Have you looked in the top box? There should be some relays and odds units up there. I would check them to see how they cycle or move to see if they are sluggish. See if they cycle and return to the starting positions. It possible something needs just a drop or two of oil. Hopefully no contact have burnt.

[brettno1]

Thanks for the reply.  I checked everything in the top box, I thought a found a sticky switch but unfortunately it didn't fix the bell.  I just the got the service manual for EM"S by M. Fey so I'm going to go thru that and see what I can find.  I hate to be one upped by a machine!

[OldReno]

I hate to be one upped, too.
Question, if you unplug the machine in the middle of this bell problem, does it still ring when you power it up?
What kind of relays do you have in the top unit?  Are there JPLockup #1 and #2 relays there? Pictures?
Does the bell turn off when you turn the JP reset key?
Have you ever replaced the reel wiper arms??? Are they in good alignment?
This is a cool problem.

[brettno1]

If I unplug the machine the bell no longer rings when I turn it back on.  The JP reset key has been replaced by a button.  I bought the machine from LA Slots so I assume they did it.  (probably an easy work around for a lot of missing JP reset keys).  Pressing the button doesn't stop the bell.  What it does is allow the machine to be coined when it hits the top jackpot - the only JP that locks up the machine.  I have never replaced the wiper arms, but they look to be in good alignment; the pays are correct.  I'll take some pics and post them in the next few days.  Thanks!

[brettno1]

I finally got around to taking some pictures.  The first photo is of the coil that rings the bell.  This coil is always at least partially energized.  If I push down on the Armature it stays down, I have to pull it back up in order for it to release.  As far as I know the coil shouldn't be energized all until there's a winning pay.  The current to the coil is definitely coming from the reel mech but I don't know exactly where from.  I say the coil is partially energized because I assume if it was fully energized, the Armature would be held down from the time the machine was turned on.

The second picture is of the reattached wires to the bell.

Any ideas??  Thanks!

[OldReno]

Looks like perhaps the orange wire with white trace is your holding circuit.  Try putting a piece of paper (matchbook) in between the switch there, and see if that makes it work better.  Don't know why you have current to the coil all the time... Do your reel wipers have cuts in them that separate the 6V from the 50V???  A long shot, but check anyway.

[brettno1]

It worked!! You're amazing    I put a piece of paper in between the switch and the bell stops ringing after the payout.  I would never have thought that blocking the contacts of a switch would actually fix a problem.  Can you give a brief explanation of how this is working?  I'd really like to understand this better.  Thanks again!!!

[OldReno]

It's a holding circuit whereby once the relay coil is turned on, then the voltage/current from the orange/white wire (75) will keep it on until you interrupt power to the (75).  You can disable it by opening the switch on the relay so that it does not contact the other leaf.  Why they installed it is a mystery to me.  You can solve this mystery by following out the orange/white (75) and see where it goes to.
The coil is turned on initially by the 3 reel wipers lining up on a pay, thus providing the 6V to allow the other set of switches to temporarily close to ring the bell.  NOrmally when the handle is pulled, the reel wipers move off 6V and the coil turns off.  For some reason, someone wanted the bell to stay on.
I hope you'll trace that 75 wire, and let us know where it goes.  That should solve the mystery.  I think it's an added on circuit, and for what, I don't know.  It's an electrical latch.  Kinda reminds me of a transistor in a way....
I think some pinball machines had coils similar, that had some power to them constantly, but needed a 3rd leg to fully engage them.  Something to do with a quick response when you hit the flipper button.  They engaged faster this way.  But then, I haven't looked at a pinball for many decades, and was never an ace on them.

[brettno1]

The trace of the orange white wire shows that it goes to a stack of switches on the side of the reel mech and also to switch on the top box.

[OldReno]

I presume pic 1 is showing a double orange/white? Or is it a single (75) wire?
Those switches should open on handle pull, so make sure the stiffener (thicker bent piece attached to your switch) does not touch the other switch side when the reels are kicked.  Just kick them manually by pushing pump arm all the way back and watch what they do.
On the second pic, see if there are any label names on the relays...
You can see, on the top 2 relays other holding circuits which are wired into the bottom 2 switches, looks like red/green (14) wire on the top one, and a red/black? (18) wire on the second one down.  Both go to the coils. See if there are names for those relays anywhere.
The bottom relay appears to be a momentary one, and does not latch it appears.
Good pictures, thanks.
You can mess around, and put paper in between these switches in your pics, too, to see how it effects things.

[brettno1]

I think the wire in pic 1 is the 75 wire, it looks like the same one that's going to the  bell coil.  Although I'm not sure what a double orange/white wire would look like.  I was wondering what the stiffener was, should they be completely straight?

As far as the second picture, there are no names for the relays printed Anywhere in the top box.  However I do have a service manual for electromechanical's, And for this model the 831, It shows those relays as being the top line, center line, and bottom-line jackpot relays.

[OldReno]

By double wire, I meant are there 2 wires on the same terminal?
The stiffener is to help keep the blades from being excessively bent, I think, and possibly to keep your switch from touching other switches accidentally.  Leave it bent, but make sure it does not touch other side when it should be open.  Often the stiffener from one side will touch the other side of the switch when it's not supposed to and create problems. I think the stiffeners should be isolated/insulated from the switches totally if I'm not mistaken.... Often there was cardboard like stuff next to them to do that.
I'm guessing the relay that is not a holding one is for 1st line JP's, and the other two are for 2nd and 3rd.  Often a 1st line jackpot will pay out the whole amount, so does not need latching or the reset key to turn it off.  One of the functions of JP lockups is to de-energize the coin lockout coil on the door, so that you cannot insert a coin, and play it off mistakenly.  That's why they latch, I believe.  When you turn the JP reset key, it turns the lockout back on so you can insert a coin.
Putting paper in between switches is a fun thing to do that will teach you a lot of things about the machine.  But don't leave it there too long or you may keep a coil on too long, and have it eventually melt.
If you feel energetic, and want some fun, you could check your machine for shorts, but if it's working ok, probably no need. I did a post on checking for shorts somewhere here in the E/M section.
Sounds like you got the machine pretty much behaving now.  Good job.

[brettno1]

Thanks for the info and all the help.  The machine is working perfectly now thanks to you.  Happy Holidays.