Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?

[zinda]

As I have stated, I started this entire process with checking the reel positions on the axle, making certain that reel 1 was reel 1 and also mounted on the hub correctly so it will correspond with each slot when it stops. I made sure that each wiper was landing on the correct pins that correspond with the wires that are already there (to some extent) and all were in the same row for each symbol showing on the line. I had to move reel 4 180 degrees on the hub to make it match up correctly all tape was mounted on the other 3 reels correctly. I also did some balancing to the reels while I was there, filed off a bad spot that was catching on some spins, bent the reels back to a more true spinning action and made them as round as possible, the #4 still has a wobble left and right that will rub very slightly some times. I attribute that to all of the work that's being done and it is the most susceptible to getting bumped and pushed around. I can easily get it back to straight.
  The machine does pay left to right, as the symbols show in the payouts, that's exactly as they must lie on the pay line, no wild symbols, 1 cherry, a bar and 2 cherries only should pay 2, 2 cherries, a bar and 1 more cherry will pay 5, 3 cherries and any other symbol but cherries will pay 10, of course 4 cherries, 4 plums, 4 oranges will all pay 20 (or should)!

There are no relays that make payouts other than the the payout relay that advances the payout boards wiper assembly and the coin hopper. It's all mechanical, wired directly from the reel wipers down to the payout board. That's why I was saying it would be tremendously easier to wire if it used resistors in line with the payouts. A relay for each payout would simplify the wiring also, it would take all the wires that need to be associated with controlling each payout and could have jumpers on the relays that could route the payouts without worrying about a constantly connected circuit that will energize wires back through the wipers if not correctly positioned to use the separated switching pins of the reel wipers.

 If you look at how I figured the wire and pin usage to have the next reels board control the previous boards payouts on a separate switching area of the wipers. It seemed to work out perfectly if I place a jumper wire on board #4's mid and lower wiper switching areas making a 5 row switch area that will control the #3's pay outs on every symbol. On the 4th board it is not needed to have any other switching to be done if the other 3 boards are all in line on each symbol except for the 8Ball. this will be handled by the upper row of 2 pins being closed to complete the 4th symbols payouts since there is no need to carry the signal any further it will just connect to the pay out that corresponds.

The way I have it figured is that the 1st reel will carry an energized signal on through the boards until the reel above it has not landed on that matching symbol on the previous boards, of course it only needs to control the cherries payouts on the 1st 2 reels, the rest will just have a cut in the flow of the signal when the 3rd reel does not match the other 2. You'll notice that the signal will only pass through if every other reel has not closed the contacts on the previous boards lower set of switches for that matching the 1st reels symbols.

  I'll draw up a super simplified version just showing the flow through the cherries first 3 reels, once i include the 4th reels board it gets really cluttered with unnecessary jumper wires to make it work but you'll get the idea from the simplified drawing. I also have plotted the pins to wires, using numbered colored wires as shown by bally, even if it has no meaning in this case.

  I still need to do a wire to beau plug plotting to see which wires are coming from each pin that has a pay out and where it ends up on the payout board.  I have done some board to board wire routing but it's a pain to try and keep each pin figured in my head as I check them making more than a few mistakes along the way, plus coupled with the fact that there may be some wires that are being shared incorrectly will cause the signal to route back through the wires and cause false signal routes. I had to place paper between the wipers and the boards to check the wires routes but then again I still need to have the previous wipers making contact or I can't follow the signal. I'm thinking it will be easier for me to simply remove the string that acts as the wire loom and just trace each wire by sight and draw out a point to point diagram using each wires number code to show how they are in line from the reel to reel to the payout. This may not actually be of any use or it may make it more obvious where it goes wrong. I know it's going to take me quite a long time and may not yield any useful info. I'll post the wire to pin plotting I have done and you'll notice that the wires and pins used now are drastically different than I have figured the layout to accomplish the task, leaving me to think that whoever rewired this either knows something I don't or they are so far off it's unimaginable. I'm sure there is a way to simplify my layout by using the wires that route from other boards to interrupt the signals but much harder to follow than what I have laid out.

[OldReno]

Wow, I have a headache.
So, what your diagram shows is that you have 7 different depth of cuts?
And, the cuts are exactly the same for all 4 of the reels?
Is there a jackpot reset keyswitch on the machine, and or any kind of jackpot lockup coil/relay anywhere?
You have a large project going on there, and I suspect that you do have all of the wires between the reel boards already there.  Use your VOM on ohms to more easily track them, that way you won't have to tear apart the loom.  Same with checking wires between plugs, you can always compare the back of the Male plug end, so you don't have to tear apart the female side to see where your wires are.
Also, you have a very large area on each reel board where your wires come and go.  Make sure you build a chart of where and what color these wires are and where they go for easy later reference.  e.g. (jumper for orange from reel 3 to reel 2).
Do you have pics of the original wiring of the boards.?
Did this machine ever pay anything correctly when you first got it?
I can't imagine anyone letting it go out for sale being so messed up....

You might also want to chart out your beau plugs, which will help you trace connnections between the reels and the hopper.
Also more pics of inside of machine could be helpful.
Whew...

[OldReno]

So, here's how I'd wire your cherry pays --
Run a grey wire to the top button on your cherry cut on the 1st reel.
Below that run the red/yellow wire which goes to the 2 pay on your hopper payboard. (should already be on you 1st reel board.
One button below that, run a jumper to the 2nd reel board cherry cut.
Below that button, run the red/white wire (5 coin pay) to your hopper payboard. (should already be there.)
Below that button, run a jumper to the 3rd reel.
etc.
That's my take on your cherry pays....
How's it going???

[zinda]

Here's some more pix

[zinda]

I've recorded where each wire is connected to each reel boars now and The only problem I had while using the meter is due to the jumpers that have been placed on the boards running in circles at times, I had to isolate the pins by placing a piece of paper behind the wipers and then I couldn't do any tracing with the paper in place. Without it several wires will be connected and it made impossible to find the correct wires connection. I had to do a visual on this to get started. I have many photos of the boards also. That's the first thing I did.

  Then I removed some of the obviously incorrect jumpers that either were connected to a part of the board which had no possible way for it to make contact via a switched part of the wiper, or it was running in a circle and was just an extra wire in the way.
   
  When I first got it it did not pay out correctly at all, it was shooting out 10 or 20 coins every pull, (once I got it to accept coins and release the handle), I was able to get that constant payout resolved by removing some of the jumpers and it was tjhen paying out only 20 every time not 10 or 20. I disconnected the 20 wire on the hopper and was able to get the 20 payout resolved also. then the 2 coin pay was also fixed, it would only pay if it landed on a cherry in the left or 1st reel!
 
  Next I started to record what was paying and what wasn't. That was what I posted previously to help to find the problem wires or at least get an idea of what was paying correctly or close to correctly and what may show a pattern of incorrect payments to give a point to focus on, That turned up that the 3rd reel was where most of the problems were located. The 3rd reel is the only reel that has a payout on every symbol, so of course that will be the most likely to be messed up.

  The only question I have about how the payout circuit works,  why won't the 2 and the 5 coin payouts be energized if the circuit carries the signal from the 2 coin payout  on reel 1 which will be hot then out that reel to the 2nd reel which will have the 5 coin wire energized? If they are wired in series they both are hot. Unless they have a separate switching mechanism that is controlling each individual payout. Or as I stated earlier if they had a resistor on the circuits that would be less than the previous lead out to the payout board, it would then bypass that payout and continue on to the next reels payout unless the circuit is not made made to the next boards payout then it will route out the 1st boards payout or the 2nd boards if the 3rd has not completed the circuit to the payout on that board. Without a resistor I only see the payouts being controlled by independent switching areas on the wiper plates contacting separate areas on the the boards. That would stop the circuit and send the signal back to the board before it since the board that doesn't line up with the ones before it will be the controlling factor that has to set the last place the signal has traveled and make a separate connection to that payout. In essence there will be 2 signals sent out and 1 will be traveling to reach the 4th reel and independently there will be a signal that will represent the interruption of the signal. Since the signal stops at lets say reel 3 then there has been boards 1, 2 and 3 in line, if the signal came from reel 1 and has only 1 wire traveling in and out of each reel then the payout on reel 1 is hot and the payout on reel 2 is also hot and the 3rd reel is also hot since the wire is in series. There is no breaking of the circuit as it travels through the reels with a single wire and no resistors to route the current to the payout board.

  The other thing is when there are 3 symbols all paying out the same amounts as the 20 coins having 3 paths of the 4th board energized, are these all simply wired together in parallel to that payout or are they somehow kept separate by traveling trough switches down at the payout boards cluster of switches and then combined?

Here's a few shots of the boards before I trimmed away some of the ridiculous rewire job. Actually these might be after I did some of the trimming, I'll have to check the dates to be certain.

[OldReno]

OK, the 2nd reel cherry gets its 50V to go 'hot'  ONLY when the 1st reel lands on a cherry.  If the 1st reel lands in ANY other position, then your signal/power will not get to the 2nd reel cherry, and therefor the 5 coin pay segment on the hopper will not light up.
Of course, if that does happen, then the 5 coin pay will be hot, and the 2 coin pay, but we don't care if the 2 is hot, because it still has 3 more coins to pay out.
Give me a little bit of time to read and digest the rest of your post. Good job so far, good logical thinking.  Are you handling all this ok?
And remember, you do have cuts in your wiper assemblies themselves, to separate out circuits.

Also, look at your picture 2958.  At upper right you see two 13 wires together.  One of them goes to 2 coin pay on hopper board.  The other one goes to reel #2, cherry position only, and you will find that coming away from that position on the other portion of the wiper index point, a 15 wire. That's your 5 coin pay.  This is basically the same way I suggested to you earlier, and thank you for the pic because it let me remember better how they were wired.  Yes, the two pay is hot, but will not carry power to 2nd reel unless there is a cherry index on 1st reel. The 1st reel is where the 90 wire extension feeds in 50V ONLY for cherry pays.  Good picture, thanks.

B will be hot, if and only if A is hot.  'A' can be hot without B being hot.
C will be hot, if, and only if B is hot, and B can be hot if and only if A also is hot.
D will be hot if and only if A,B, and C are all also hot.

Oh, also to remember, it doesn't matter if lower pays are hot, because in the end the highest pay is the one to be paid.  In other words, for a 20 coin payout for 4 oranges, at the same time the 20 is hot, the 10 coin pay (3 oranges) is also hot.  But we don't care, because the 10 coins is part of the 20 coins for 4 oranges.  Helpful or not?

[OldReno]

Also, note that the cherry pays are the only ones to originate from the 1st reel.  All other pays use the 4th or 3rd reels and are 'read' opposite of the way cherries are.  Cherries read from L to R.  Other pays read from R to L.

[zinda]

I was just studying the 3 reel layout and philosophy of how the current flows, although it's very much unlike mine I think I have it figured out! Each payout on the 3 & 4 reel, (other than the 8 ball on the 4th reel and possibly not the exact same configuration for cherries either),  will have its own hot 50v (90) Gray wire feeding it, then the signal will look for the path back to the 1st reel, If the 50v signal on the 4th reel is hot then it will travel to the 3rd reel but will be on a separate switching area of the 3rd reels matching symbols. If the 3rd reel matches then the signal is completed and travels to the 2nd reels board on it's own switching area then if 1st reel matches the signal will again pass through its own switching area of the wipers to the payout wire connected to the 4 matching symbols payout on the payout board.

If the 4th reel isn't matching the first 3 matches then the 50v signal that is located opposite 3rd reels payout wire circuit will be hot and travel to the 2nd board on a separate set of wires than those used by the 4th reels payout circuit but in line with that symbols set of pins, then onto the 1st reels payout wires connected to that 3 matching symbols payout on the payout board.
 
so each payout will be on the first reel board  & will have 2 separate wires for the Bars, Bells, Plums & Oranges & 2 separate circuits originating from the 4th reel and 3Rd reels (1 each), the 8balls will have just 1, the cherries will have a double wire on each board for they're own payout as the signal moves towards the higher payouts?
or
Am I seeing it slightly off?

[zinda]

1 more thing, my bell has been removed, also I don't have the topper for in, it looks like it's just a slot to illuminate a single piece of glass with a light running under the bottom adage. Is there an option to use the bell circuit to power a light that would flash or something from the 6 volt signal? Also I have keys for it but it doesn't have the switch for the call attendant reset. Nor does it have the door locking assembly, I can make that part pretty easily, I have done that type of work all my life, I just don't currently have a shop that I can use since I'm not working right now. Looks simple enough to make in my garage.

 I will need to have a separate 6 volt feed for the Super Jackpot & $125 payouts running on the 7's circuit Can that voltage be changed to run another device as I stated, or is it better to have it run to a relay that will switch another transformer set to the voltage needed to power whatever device I choose to show the Jack pot hit. That is if I can't find a 6 volt device that will work.

 I won't need a 50v feed running to the 7's at all?

Does the carry over wire come from the reel boards or is it controlled by the switches on the hopper.

[OldReno]

Zinda, I think you pretty much got the theory.
You probably could use the bell circuit to power a light.  Sounds doable.
You should find a solid 20 wire somewhere on the reel boards that is your 6V. It should be wired at the bottom most part of your boards, and you can tell by the cuts in the wipers.  You should be able to run any 6V device from it as long as it doesn't exceed the fuses rating.  You can always put in a slightly higher amp fuse, too.

The Carry Over I believe is from the payout relay (93 wire??), and it is hot whenever there is a payout.  It doesn't matter if it is only a cherry 2 coin pay out, the CO is always hot on pays.  It is just that the wiper fingers never make it up that far on low pays.  I wrote something about the CO circuit one time, it might be on OldReno's trouble shooting tips.
Sounds like you got a good grasp of the machine...!

[zinda]

OK I have it all working except for I cannot really test the bell circuit other than seeing if some voltage will show a signal, My understanding is that when the $125 mini jackpot and the Super Jackpot are hit the bell rings and the handle should also be locked? or does the machine shut down? Also there needs to be an exterior reset switch that is key operated for this or is it an internal resetting?

 Well to report back and show how I was able to get it working now was after a few very long nights struggling with that goofy wire color scheme that they seem to live by. After finding myself going in circles and tried to help out the wire indexing with some magic markers and found that the only way to get this going on the correct track was to strip out all of the original wiring that runs between the reel wiper boards! Then I gathered up some Red, Orange, Yellow, Purple, Blue, White & Black Wires to use for the jumper wiring from board to board. Of course using the colors that matched the symbols. Also the out bound and inbound can have lines drawn on them to distinguish the out and return for certain lines. Once I did this I was able to finally see exactly what was going on without always referring back to a chart or drawings with numbers and colors that didn't have any meaning as to what they were doing or where they went. Also had to run a few extra wires between boards and beau plugs all the way to the pay out board also. A few wires had been changed and the colors were not the same going into the beau plugs as they were coming out so I changed those as well. These are what was really making the fix so impossibly hard to follow . Here's the basic idea of how the wires run for a single coin single line 4 reel machine will go.

 The concept is power is applied on reel 3 then follows the wires to board 1 where most of the payouts will be connected to the payout board. Some are shared right there while others will have a further path around and back to complete that coin payout. What happens after the wires complete their path back to board 1 is they will then take another wire from #1 up to #4 Board where they will see the last connection to make a 4 symbol match, then they will pay out there or return back to board 1 to make the payout. But this is not true for the Cherries! The cherries start with power at reel 1 and travels up to the #4 reel with payouts at each point that there is a match. ending up with a 20 coin payout on #4 shared with Orange and Plums also. The other largely shared payout will occur with the 100 coin payout which will again have to have extra wires running from #4 to #1 and also having different numbered matches that share it. 3 Bars, 3 8-balls & 4 Bells all will have connections to the 100 Coin wire. It looks like this in some way.

 I have to make a correction to the drawing I have here I noticed that I had the 10 coin payout coming directly to the orange loop from the 1st reel to the 4th reel and what i had to do to keep this from paying out 20 in the case of the 4th reel landing on a cherry, was to wire the 10 coin payout wire down onto one of the lower sets of wiper switch areas then back up to the actual payout. So it would have the orange looping wire coming from the 1st reel and going to the 4th reel for the completion of the 4 oranges go to the 4th reel and then another separate jumper coming from that same connection on the 4th reel and going to the 3rd reels cherries, lower wiper switching area. You have to make sure which pins are switched together before doing anything further. Once you have located a place that has 2 pins that are not connected to any other pins by wiper switches. that will be the spot to have the 10 coin orange jumper wire from the 1st & 4th reels. Then have the cherry jumper wire that comes up from the 2nd reel meet up with that orange wire on top part where the wires all bind then jumper down to the pins. Then have a small jumper wire run up from that separated set of pins to the set of pins that are on the other area above those. The payout wire for the 10 coin from the lower switching area will then only travel up to the cherry 10 coin payout if that 3rd reel lands on the cherry, thus making it impossible for that wire to be hot from the Oranges in the first place. This will isolate that circuit from traveling through the cherries 4th reel wiring in case it lands on it with 3 oranges showing.  The only way it can get through to the next reel is if the cherries are on the 3rd reel otherwise it will either stop there if there are not 2 cherries showing already. If it has 3 oranges it will skip around the cherries connection that travels to the 4th reel.

When I have time I'll re-post the wire diagram to show this minor alteration that I noticed within a few spins of the reels.

[OldReno]

My goodness.  Excellent work.  You certainly are no slouch.
Thanks for putting this all up here for us to see, and for future folks too.

So, when you hit a jackpot, the machine still will work as normally, but with one important exception:
The coin lockout coil loses power on a JP.  When it loses power, the armature is pulled away from the coil, and no more coins are allowed through the coin acceptor.  They all fall back into the tray.
This is the secret of hand pays, you cannot coin the machine as a customer.
To re-energize the lockout coil, you must turn the JP reset key, which is a separate but parallel circuit to the lockout.
OR, you can open the door and push on the coin switch with your finger.  Often we would do that instead of hunting around on our key ring for the JP reset key.
Once the first coin is accepted, then the JP Lockup Relay#1 or #2 loses power, and things return to normal.
BTW, you did a heck of a job on the rewiring....!  Nice.

[zinda]

I would guess that the 20 coin pay (which is for multiple types of symbols...) is wired as a secondary and separate part of the reel boards.  In other words, it is probably a couple of rows of buttons below the top cut of the wiper assemblys.  This secondary cut will determine when the 20 coin pay segment is lit (powered), and may be run through a relay which when activated will complete the 20 coin pay to be hot.
To rephrase: a 3 orange 10 coin pay is going to be handled by a different part of the reel boards than is a 4 orange 20 coin pay.  The 20 coin pay will only be energized when all 4 reels have an orange on it.

You have spent many hours on this so far it seems.
Let me ask a question:
Have you checked for absolute certainty that your reel strips are correct, and that they match the cuts for each and every symbol on all 4 reels?
If not I urge you to check the position of EVERY symbol, to be sure that they are all consistent. In other words if on reel # 3, an orange cut is in position #6 let's say, then every other orange on that reel should and must also index on position #6.
If you can tell me that you have for certain taken the time and checked each symbol's position, then I will sleep better at night.  (sure glad I'm not doing this project...)
No, the bally doesn't use resistors in determining pays, it's all in the cuts, and wipers isolation.

Oh, I see by looking at a photo above, your machine does NOT pay from right to left.  This is probably a good thing, and should simplify the wiring a little bit.  Time to ponder this..........
If you have time, for giggles post us a listing of your reel strips..., eg.
Reel 1      Reel 2      Reel 3     Reel 4
or             pl             pl           bar
ch             or            or          be
etc......

You are exactly on point when you say this and I have now posted the corrected version of the wiring diagram to clarify the mistake I had made with the 10 Coin pay out. It will make the orange hot unless the 10 coin pay out is isolated on a lower switching area of the Cherries row of pins. The last picture I posted is the proper way to have the payouts wired. Thanks for being sharp and ointing this out. Sorry it's taken so long to get this posted but I've been busy with a few more Machines and will have the pictures posted in a new thread using the keyword Matador Slot Machine.