SAS Host controller DLL. What do you want to see?

[AndyP]

Should be able to make it multidrop it with RS232 now I think about it. Will need to feed tx from pc, to rx of machine one, tx of machine one to rx of machine 2 tx of machine 2 to rx of pc. Same way they do it with fibre. You would need an or gate on the logic side of the rs232 to feed data into the loop.

I don't think it's quite that simple. If you send a command, it needs to go to the RX line of ALL of the machines.  If you send a command to the RX line of machine #1 and take take the TX line from that and send it to the next one, you will also be sending the responce from machine #1 which will be meaningless to machine #2 and can make it produce a bogus reply. That in turn goes to the next machine and so on, which by the time it gets to the last machine will be mostly garbage data. And by combining the TX and RX on the same line as you are doing, any unexpected data from a machine (i.e. door open) can get sent at the same time as a command that you are trying to send from the host, and that will cause that command to be jumbled since they will be mixed with your OR gate.

As I indicated earlier the data sent needs to go to the RX line of ALL machines. This is the easier part because it is like shouting into a room where you want eveyone to hear you.  And then the individual responses need to be sent back on the TX line (of the machines). This is where you will need some logic gates to prevent problems since you can't just tie them all together. This is also not without issues too, since a reply can be coming down the line when another event happens (i.e. machine #3 is sending EFT data when machine #2 opens it's door and now you have a garbage packet back at the host). This is why it looks like the fiber board has some logic in it to prevent data from being sent back to the host if the line is already in use.

Also TTL level signals don't like to be sent long distances (more than a few feet at best). That is why fiber is best, or one would need to convert back to RS232 on each machine. BTW, they use separate TX and RX fiber lines exactly for the reasons mentioned above. I already posted the schematics of the fiber interface and of a modified RS232 to fiber link.

Here is my simplified drawing of the concept. Note how data sent TO the machines is simple. It just send it to all of them at the same time. The returning data however needs to be 'combined' with some OR gates or other logic. The bottom line (IMO) is the TX and RX lines (and data) need to be kept seperate. This is not going to be that simple to just throw together.

Does not matter what data the machines see, they only respond to messages with there poll address and ignore everything else. The picture I supplied there is EXACTLY how the fibre optic boards work at the most simple level. That is how multidropped protocols work. Every single SAS message has the poll address as the first byte. The only way you would get corrupt comms is if you have 2 machines with the same poll address on the loop.

What I will do in the next release is allow support for one ticket to be printed, then redeemed. I will also start thinking about a back end so the printed tickets can be stored in a database. I will be using microsoft sql server for this, and it may even find its way into the next test app.

Andy you may want to use SQLEXPRESS instead since the masses may not have access to a full version of SQL Server (or use MySQL).  I would be interested in playing around with integrating the DLL with MAME sometime to allow the two to talk to each other.  But it would require changing the COM output to use a different means of communication like Windows messaging.  Send me a PM if you would like to discuss sometime.  I am fairly versed in C# .NET too.

I have all the Microsoft tools, pay thousands each year for them! IT makes my job easier to use the tools I have. MS SQL Server express edition is free. Maybe you and I are talking about the same thing?

To make the dll  use windows messaging would either mean someone has to wrap the dll up in a com interface, or I have to change it so its a com object! At this stage, I wont be doing it. I simply dont have the time. IF you are good with c#, then you could write a c# wrapper for it.

[poppo]

Knowing how the protocol is supposed to behave.....I think I would side with Andy that if we parallel our RX's to all machines - the machine will only listen to SASs commands destinted for the machine  01 (or 02 or 03) so sending out a command will not trigger multiple machines and only one machine will be sending back a TX when it is asked to report. So multiple Tx's back should not happen.

But that's not how he has it wired up. He is mixing the TX and RX on the same line. It's never going to work. But have at it.  

[Stolistic]

Yup I'm referering to MS SQL Server Express.  I haven't fully reviewed your code but I don't think a wrapper is possible since I would need to see the data packets sent and resend as messages.  Right now I believe your DLL hides this from use.  But I'm not positive what you have.

[jdkmunch]

TITO algorithm is cracked, just not coded.

What I will do in the next release is allow support for one ticket to be printed, then redeemed.

My assumption would be that based on your statement the value of the ticket only gets transmitted - not encoded on the ticket.  When the ticket gets redeemed the ID gets looked up in the database.

[AndyP]

Knowing how the protocol is supposed to behave.....I think I would side with Andy that if we parallel our RX's to all machines - the machine will only listen to SASs commands destinted for the machine  01 (or 02 or 03) so sending out a command will not trigger multiple machines and only one machine will be sending back a TX when it is asked to report. So multiple Tx's back should not happen.

But that's not how he has it wired up. He is mixing the TX and RX on the same line. It's nevr going to work. But have at it.  

The whole idea here is that every machine receives what you transmit out of the PC. Note that what gets transmitted out of the pc, comes back in also. If VGM cant see every transmitted packet, how you you expect it to work?

Each VGM receives every message. When it receives a message that matches its poll address, it responds and puts its data onto the loop, Every machine on the loop will also see this data (and in fact this is one key aspect of the operation of SAS) but it just ignores it, because its not intended for the VGM.

This is the way Fibre Optic loops work, daisy chaining each output to the next input.

TITO algorithm is cracked, just not coded.

What I will do in the next release is allow support for one ticket to be printed, then redeemed.

My assumption would be that based on your statement the value of the ticket only gets transmitted - not encoded on the ticket.  When the ticket gets redeemed the ID gets looked up in the database.

Not quite.
When you print a ticket, the VGM sends an excpetion, and once again you poll for the printed ticket data. This response contains the validation code, and the amount. This obviously gets stored away for future validation.

When a ticket is put into a VGM, you have to query for the data. The only data you get back is the validation code (ie the number on the barcode). The amount at this point is unknown. Thanks to a good person on this forum I was able to get some raw data packets to see what happens. Even though the message repsonse has a field for the amount, its always returned with a 0.

[jdkmunch]

 

What colors get hooked up to the S2000 interface?   I tried red green and black with no luck 

[poppo]

Look at it again. The whole idea here is that every machine receives what you transmit out of the PC. Note that what gets transmitted out of the pc, comes back in also.

Each VGM receives every message. When it receives a message that matches its poll address, it responds and puts its data onto the loop, Every machine on the loop will also see this data (and in fact this is one key aspect of the operation of SAS) but it just ignores it, because its not intended for the VGM.

This is the way Fibre Optic loops, daisy chaining each output to the next input.

The fiber does NOT work that way. Look at the schematics I posted (or look in the manual). There is a separate TX and RX fiber line. The data is not mixed on the same line. They built it that way for a reason.

Of course people told me you needed current loops adapters etc. to make a RS232 interface work, but yet my MAX232 only interface works just fine.  

I may not be a software guru, but I have been in electronics for many decades. It's just not as easy as you may think to daisy chain this.  I'm not trying to talk anyone out of  anything, but when I see concepts that I know won't work based on experience, I will usually say something.    

[AndyP]

Look at it again. The whole idea here is that every machine receives what you transmit out of the PC. Note that what gets transmitted out of the pc, comes back in also.

Each VGM receives every message. When it receives a message that matches its poll address, it responds and puts its data onto the loop, Every machine on the loop will also see this data (and in fact this is one key aspect of the operation of SAS) but it just ignores it, because its not intended for the VGM.

This is the way Fibre Optic loops, daisy chaining each output to the next input.

The fiber does NOT work that way. Look at the schematics I posted (or look in the manual). There is a separate TX and RX fiber line. The data is not mixed on the same line. They built it that way for a reason.

Of course people told me you needed current loops adapters etc. to make a RS232 interface work, but yet my MAX232 only interface works just fine.  

I may not be a software guru, but I have been in electronics for many decades. It's just not as easy as you may think. And I'm not trying to talk anyone out of  anything, but when I see concepts that I know won't work based on experience, I will usually say something.    

Dude, I am not going to argue with you, I have been working with gaming for about 15 years now, doing hardware and software.

But since you insist on questioning everything I do, go take a look at your schematics for the fibre boards again that you posted in post 421.

There fibre connectors used for the loop are F03 and F04. Data is received by F04, gets fed into and or gate, and then into a FO Driver and then out of F03. The FO driver also drives the games receive port. The transmit from the game gets fed into the or gate, and subsequently onto the loop. This is the way it works. In fact in the current state I am working in, it works this way in 4 casinos and about 3000 clubs.


Edit. My apologies, i just look at one of the boards and it uses F01 as the input, so uses the or gate in the 75451

[AndyP]

I have atatched a cct diagram with some lines of how the FO stuff works. Also attached is an rs232 to FO converter that I designed. It can be used as an FO repeater or interface, and has the option to loop input to output (or reflect as we call it).

[poppo]

Edit. My apologies, i just look at one of the boards and it uses F01 as the input, so uses the or gate in the 75451

Yes, two inputs and two outputs. Seperate RX and TX lines.

I'm not trying to get into an argument about any of this. I'm just trying to help get it working. That is why I posted the modified fiber board concept to allow RS232 as one of the inputs and outputs. The rest of the machines could just use the fiber board as is (if they can be found). If they can't be found then some other solution needs to be come up with. I don't need to daisy chain my units, so if people want me to keep my ideas to myself, no problem. 

[AndyP]

Edit. My apologies, i just look at one of the boards and it uses F01 as the input, so uses the or gate in the 75451

Yes, two inputs and two outputs. Seperate RX and TX lines.

I'm not trying to get into an argument about any of this. I'm just trying to help get it working. That is why I posted the modified fiber board concept to allow RS232 as one of the inputs and outputs. The rest of the machines could just use the fiber board as is (if they can be found). If they can't be found then some other solution needs to be come up with. I don't need to daisy chain my units, so if people want me to keep my ideas to myself, no problem. 

Wrong again. Look at the diagram..

[poppo]

Wrong again. Look at the diagram..

   There it is right in black and white. But whatever. Good luck.  

[AndyP]

Wrong again. Look at the diagram..

   There it is right in black and white. But whatever. Good luck. 

Look at my drawing numnuts, with the lovely coloured lines showing the direction of the comms. Like i said before, being doing it for fifteen years now, plus backing up as instrument fitter before I went to uni. But seems you know it all. Good luck with it. I guess every casino, club and pub I have ever worked in that use fibre has it wrong.

Deadset, its people like you that really put people off trying to do this stuff.

[poppo]

Look at my drawing numnuts, .....

People who feel the need to resort to name calling usually can't support their augment based on facts.

Deadset, its people like you that really put people off trying to do this stuff.

I've supplied quite a few schematics of WORKING interfaces. Just how it that putting people off?  

But in any case I'm done here. Obviously you don't like/want people sharing their knowlege or experience.

[Foster]

AndyP
S2000 Get 01: displayed in the log area.
S+ only see door open and closed, get ROM signature after a while
I think something is dropping parts of the data and causing things not work.

Note: For those testing the App on a S+ some of the functions he has programmed the S+ will not respond to them, and may cause the communications to stop.
Not sure where the issue lies (S+ not knowing what the commands are or how to respond to them.

I am using a 16Mhz board, I guess I could dig out the only working 10Mhz board I have and see what it does with 1271

[AndyP]

AndyP
S2000 Get 01: displayed in the log area.
S+ only see door open and closed, get ROM signature after a while

Note: For those testing the App on a S+ some of the functions he has programmed the S+ will not respond to them, and may cause the communications to stop.
Not sure where the issue lies (S+ not knowing what the commands are or how to respond to them.

I am using a 16Mhz board, I guess I could dig out the only working 10Mhz board I have and see what it does with 1271

01 is probably a chirp from the EGM. I will get around to handling these properly eventually, but its low on my list at the moment. This means the EGM is not receiving any data.


Poppo, read the schematic again, and explain to me what the or gates are for.

[poppo]

Poppo, read the schematic again, and explain to me what the or gates are for.

Better yet, tell us why there are two inputs and two outputs that are different from each other?  If everything could be put on one line, then why not just have one input and one output?

But here is a clue. U1 is a 7408 AND gate despite the odd incorrect OR gate symbol used in the schematic. It is correctly depicted in the corner where it shows the unused gates (and the parts list). Thus it is used to block/steer the signals and not combine them like an OR would.

In any case, like I said, I will just stay out of this thread since the bickering is counter productive.

[knagl]

bickering is counter productive.

Yes, it is, and we ALL have the same common goal here -- to get this project to work for everyone.  Let's not lose sight of that, please.  This is the closest opportunity we've had as a home user community to create a working home-based TITO system -- something that just a month ago everyone here thought would always be out of reach.  My eyes are still on that prize. 

[AndyP]

Poppo, read the schematic again, and explain to me what the or gates are for.

Better yet, tell us why there are two inputs and two outputs that are different from each other?  If everything could be put on one line, then why not just have one input and one output?

But here is a clue. U1 is a 7408 AND gate despite the odd incorrect OR gate symbol used in the schematic. It is correctly depicted in the corner where it shows the unused gates (and the parts list). Thus it is used to block/steer the signals and not combine them like an OR would.

In any case, like I said, I will just stay out of this thread since the bickering is counter productive.

for a start, I have never seen f04 fitted. Therefore there is only one input, and 2 outputs. I have never seen f03 used either for that matter, and I assume is used for jackpot signs or ancillary devices. F01 and F02 are always stacked and they are used for comms.

The drawing is not incorrectly labeled. Its depicted as negative logic. An or gate with active low inputs, and active low output is the same as an AND gate.

[PWRSTROKE]

 .

[AndyP]

Folks, this thread is starting to get lost. 30+ pages now. I think its time to break it down a bit and perhaps retire this thread.

So I suggest some new threads, ie interfaces for particular machines in a seperate thread. questions and help on software etc. I am starting to get lost in this thread at the moment. I am not familiar with this forum software, so if you do post in a seperate thread and you want me to repsond then a PM or an email would be helpful.

I just created a gmail address for this particluar topic, slotmon is the username with the normal gmail.com stuff on the end (BTW if anyone makes that email address complete on the internet anywhere I will send you a million spams in return ). As I get used to the forum you will find that there is no need to pm/email.

For those who have had commercial enquiries please email that slotmon address and I will foward on my company details.

And for those impatient ones. I do this for a living, so please be patient. I have to manage the paid work, and we have our ups and downs. The last few weeks have been very quiet, hence the reason for the amount of effort gone into the DLL. It may not look like much, but trust me there is a lot of code behind it. I have just won a few more small contracts that will have me tied up for the next 3-4 weeks, so you wont see a lot of activity on the DLL or test app until I am done.

[Joeylc]

Folks, this thread is starting to get lost. 30+ pages now. I think its time to break it down a bit and perhaps retire this thread.

So I suggest some new threads, ie interfaces for particular machines in a seperate thread. questions and help on software etc.

Done      see link http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?board=105.0

Joeylc

[stayouttadabunker]

Finally...The TestApp "Form1" works using an S+ SAS Interface board and a PC.
Why? Basically because I'm using the SP1213 chip installed onto a 10MHz MPU.
I'm also using an USB to Serial adapter with both the TestApp and PC set to COM 3...>>>

[poppo]

Finally...The TestApp "form1" works using an S+ SAS Interface board and a PC.
Why? Basically because I'm using the SP1213 chip installed onto a 10MHz MPU.
I'm also using an USB to Serial adapter with both the TestApp and PC set to COM 3...>>>

What is different now? Just the SP or the USB adapter? I know some of the older SP chips don't support all of the messages. Like I don't get the 'game started'/'game ended' messages with SP1048 and below (not sure what number they start showing up with), but I do get 'door open'/'door closed' and a few others.

[stayouttadabunker]

Apparently, the only thing I changed was the SP1213 chip.
Adapter is still the "Cable-To-Go" USB to Serial adapter...
The SS chip I didn't touch, but I know it's an Cherry Bars Type 0 game...horrible % chip in it.
I'm getting some different messages now...
at least it's not the stupid [01:]   lol
Actually the ROM Signature came up about 4 or 5 minutes later...lol
Good thing I wasn't in a big rush to find out what it was! 
The port does like to freeze or lock up and I have to turn off the TestApp
and turn it back on to get some input data...>>>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/OfY1NQYu018&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/OfY1NQYu018&rel=0</a>