EM posts I found from Oldreno and others

I found this on a disk I saved and thought I would repost it for others. ( Good stuff from oldreno and others )

Troubleshooting the Bally EM

Here are a few tips I can pass on to you when restoring those wonderful Ballys.
I donâ€™t know that this is the proper forum for stuff like this, or there is any interest.
If there is, I will be glad to post further stuff. Hopefully other old-timer Bally mechanics will input their thoughts alsoâ€¦.

The clock.
Often the bull-gear (largest gear) will wear thin and stop the clock. The reels either won't index, or the switches won't close fully to allow pays. When the handle is pulled, the bull gear rotates 1/4 turn to fulfill its function. When that part gets too worn, simply drive out the drift pin and rotate the gear a quarter turn. The holes for the drift pin should line up, drive it back in and you now have another 100,000 miles of play.
You can also somewhat change the spin speed (not much) by bending closed or open the fan blades. No real reason to do that tho'. Another way of quieting down the clock is to put a polite layer of grease on the metal gears in the clock. This not only makes it more quiet, but slows it down just a bit. Also some heavy grease on the outside & inside pivot holes helps.

The reels.
Occasionally the reel screws will come out and you have a one in 4 chance of putting them back on the disc correctly. A quick way to find out the right way is to index the reel wiper arms into the deepest cut on the reel disc. This deepest cut is generally the high pay. Now line up the reel so the 7 or highest pay is on center line, and you should see the 4 screw holes line up correctly. Put a bit of silicon on the screw thread & they shouldn't come out until you decide to take them out.

The reel wipers will sometimes come loose. To position them correctly, push back the reel wiper arm roller all the way, and then line up the wiper buttons with the back set of contacts. That works out to be pretty close to right on in most cases. After adjusting check a mid-pay and a low-pay for proper index. Fine adjust accordingly.

Switches and switch stacks.
The A, B, C, Coin Relay, and dashpot switches were designed to be somewhat self-cleaning. The convex and concave portions wipe as they contact and that keeps them clean. It is important to not remove that convex/concave area by filing the switches. Don't to it. Use either a burnisher, a fine thin flexible piece of flat metal, or a business card after spraying with contact cleaner. Gently pinch the switches together & rub the card back & forth between them. When adjusting switches for good contact, look and see that they 'push' on each other, and also that when open they are full open. Adjust switches by bending them at the stack, not at the end of the switch. Check your fiber insulating pieces that keep the switch sections apart. For example, the C switches contain several switches operating different circuits. Don't let the wrong circuits contact each other. You might want to gently tighten the micarta-insulator stack, they sometimes get a little loose, especially in dry climates like Nevada.

Hopper rebuilding.
Since parts are unavailable, youâ€™ll have to fabricate your own.
The zero stop bumper for the hopper reset is one part. It is a thick disc of rubber, and when the hopper spiral is reset it stops against the bumper. You may have to find a good piece of rubber about the same thickness as the old bumper, and cut out a circle about the same diameter. Now punch a hole in it. Donâ€™t punch it in the middle, make it offset. The bumper was originally designed offset so you could precisely adjust the hopper wipers. If they reset too far forward, theyâ€™ll short pay by one coin. If they are too far back, theyâ€™ll overpay by one coin. The eccentric design of the bumper allows you to adjust for this. Also, be aware that there are two bolts holding the hopper board to the backplate. You can loosen and adjust the hopper board also to prevent mispays.
The torsion spring being wound too loose on the back 100 tooth nylon gear will give double steps and needs another Â¼ turn or so to stop those short pays. Proper winding on the torsion spring is about 2 and one half turns max. Any more than that and it may bind on high pays and run-away. Make sure you step it all the way up to the max pay after adjusting the spring to check for binding.

Hopper short pays-on high pays.
When a hopper board pay circuit powers up via 50V through the reel boards, there is also another pay segment which is powered. That is the CO or Carry Over segment. It is typically found at about 75 steps on the hopper board. When a high pay (100 or 200 coins) is hit, the payout relay stays energized through the outboard wiper fingers on the hopper carriage. These fingers are just about impossible to adjust to exactly 100 coins, so their function is to provide power until the inboard spiral wipers get stepped up onto the Carry Over. As you notice the carry over stops at exactly 100 steps. If your machine stops paying before the 100 coins is finished, then probably your outboard wipers are going off their segments before the inboards hit the CO. Simply loosen the 2 screws and move the outboard wipers until they stay on circuit until after the inboards hit the CO. I generally adjust so they go off about in the middle of the CO circuit. The CO will accurately give you the correct pay.
Also, on some models there is a CO for 40 and 50 coin pays. Same thing applies.

Thanks,
Oldreno

The two types of 'zero stops' for the bally hoppers are the pencil-erasor type you mentioned, which is adjustable by a nut and allen head screw. This kind allows you to move the stop up or down to adjust the zero position accurately. It is an improvement over the original. The original looked kind of like a rubber nickel, with a hole drilled offset. this offset allowed you to adjust the bumper eccentrically, either to a thin spot or a thicker spot depending on how you wanted the wipers to reset. When tightening the eccentric, you had to get it into position, and then firmly hold it in place with your thumbnail to get it to stay while you tightened the bolt.
After adjusting, if it is too far one way or the other, you will either have a 1 coin short pay, or an occasional 1 coin overpay, or unneccesary wear on your 100 tooth white nylon gear.
Really nice wonderful old machines.
Thanks,
oldReno

My machine, an 809, has 2 meters, neither works, I don't suppose you'd know how to hook them up to show coin in and coin out do you? They were evidently hooked up to show jackpot info, but the jackpot disk in the odds unit was hopelessly disconnected and I don't care about that anyway, but it would be nice to know coin in and coin out if I ever use this for charity gaming.

Hi Billb,
have an email to send you soon on a question you asked me afew days ago, get it off to you soon.
I am guessing you have 2 mechanical meters mounted on the reel mech just in front of the 1st reel?
Both meters are run through the door interlock switch so that when door is open and machine is serviced, those coins in and out don't register.
You are probably looking for a solid orange to feed the meters (50V)then look for two unused taped wires somewhere going to the meters.
I suspect the coin out meter is run directly from the hopper coin out switches.
The coin in meter I'll have to think about for a bit, but it's probably not run directly off the coin-in switch. there's probably a dual line, one from possibly the coin relay assembly (1st coin in) and then maybe the other from the odds unit relay, or somewhere in the top unit but I'm not sure.
Try to see if you can trace back from the meters, or find unused parts of your switch stacks that seem to go nowhere.
In any event, your wire colors are liable to change a few times before you find the source.
Let me know what you find, and I'll try to reboot my brain on that coin-in circuit.
Thanks
oldreno

Well, that's where it gets a little interesting, there was probably some "home cooking" on this machine decades ago.

The first meter is in the mid section behind the bell. There is a solid red wire and a dark yellow, perhaps olive wire also. A flashlight may be changing the color. There may be a tracer on it or just dirt I can be sure.

The second meter is not attached to anything. it sits behind the drop hole next to the hopper. Its wires are black with perhaps a white mottling, again, fade and wear here are very evident, the second wire is a yellowish.

For all I know these meters don't even work regardless of whether current is applied. The machine itself looks nice enough, but required extensive TLC to make operate properly.

Thanks for your help. Nice to know there is somebody out there that still cares about these old things!

A quick question, is there any place on these machines that I can get 50VAC with aligator clips to test the meters??? Come to think of it I guess I could use the transformer itself, any better place?

Hi,
I usually use the solid orange wire behind the coin acceptor that ties into the coin lockout coil.
Then grab any solid yellow on the door (lights?) and test it with VOM to be sure.
Just hook one side to meter, and touch other jumper to other junction of meter & you should see it step once per pulse.
Or, of course, a yellow and then an orange off of the transformer work the same.
Also, since it's been modified, see if you can see a voltage stamped anywhere on the meter. It may be a 120V meter.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.

is it okay to be connecting the 6vac and 50vac lines?

I have a question for Oldreno or and other member that might be able to help.
I have a Bally 791 machine with two problems.

First, when the lowest pay is hit (20 coins) the hopper will not start a pay. I never get any voltage to the payout relay. However if I hold the payout relay closed for the first coin to pay, the hopper will continue to run and count out the twenty coins. All other pays on the machine initiate and start fine. I appears it should be getting a shot of 50V to close the relay and start the counting? The coil will hold after the first coin is paid out.

Second Question, Same machine. When I get a large payout of 100 or more coins the machine pays correctly. On the next handle pull the payout counter SOMETIMES does not fully reset to zero. The reset coil gets voltage and pulls. Then the spring starts to reset the counter, but it looks like voltage is lost to the reset coil prematurely?. This causes the payout counter to stop the reset before it reaches zero stop bumper. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens more often than not. I can't seam to find any reoccurring pattern as to why.

Hi,
It sounds like your zero stop needs adjusting, and that the wiper fingers, when they reset, are going off of the 20 coin pay tab. Either that, or your outboard wiper finger does not have enough tension and thus not good contact. Try setting up a pay, pull out the hopper and step it up one step. Then push it back in to see if it pays. Also, tug on the outboard wiper mechanism (the horseshoe thing sticking out of the front of the hopper board, and pull it toward you.
Check for tension on all wiper fingers, I lift them with a small screwdriver and listen to that nice snap sound when they fall off the driver. Pull out the inboard wiper assembly and lightly but politely put a little more bend on the wipers. See that they all line up in the same plane.
Power to initiate the payout relay comes through the payboard, so if no contact, no payout relay energizing.
On the occasional 100 coin reset problems, try adding another 1/4 turn to that spiral spring behind the white nylon 100-tooth step gear. If your payboard is clean, and the tension not too strong, that added 1/4 turn should work. However, any time you adjust the spring, you should always mechanically step it up to your maximum payout (200 coins?) to make sure it does not bind on the 199nth step.
The payout relay reset coil is a one-shot affair. It releases a trip lever that allows the wipers to reset by themselves. It it starts to reset, but then stops partway, it is probably a physical bind somewhere, and not a payout reset coil problem. it's purely mechanical after the reset coil trips.
good luck and feel free to contact if you have further.
Thanks
oldreno

yes you can use the 50V and 6V lines. The yellow wire is the common wire between the two voltages. They share it.
Orange and yellow give 50V, Blue and yellow give 6V, and when you use orange and blue (you normally don't) you get 56V

good luck.
oldreno

Thanks, I have a 5 ft wire harness and I'm running the hopper outside of the machine. It was a total mess and after 2 day I got it down to these two problems. I'll re-check that zero stop and look at that mechanical linkage for the re-set issue.

With hopper unplugged, reach back and fully press the hopper reset coil to latched position.
This should unlatch the gear and stepper tabs.
then, you should be able to turn your stepper spiral and assembly freely.
When you release it you will be able to notice if it is binding anywhere, and note where it binds.
I ususally turn it halfway, and release it to see it there is enough tension on return spring, and then just move it a step or to to see if it is still returning.
Sounds purely mechanical to me.
If the linkage fully unlatches the gear when the reset coil fires, then the problem is probably in the spiral cam, pay wipers, orsomewhere else.
oldreno

I don't know where you are with that fix, but the easiest check is the reel assy. set it for a 20 pay and see if you have continuity thru the wipers, if so, the prob is the hopper. Here's where you have to verify that midcycle the hopper resets to zero. they don't always do that properly. the weird thing, in my experience, if it's a zero issue, it's the cherries that don't pay correctly not the higher amts. Oldreno's right you have to verify that the countdown of the pay is working free and smooth, if not, well, there's a lot that can go wrong. Sounds like the whole hopper pay countdown process has some "issues" Make sure everything is clean and unobstructed. I use very light oil on a lot of these parts, that may or may not be kosher. Works for me, others say it attracts dirt.

Thanks everyone,
I did correct the problem with the 20 coin not paying. The second wiper from the inside was not making good contact. Had to rotate the contact plate as much as I could clockwise and clean off and adjust the tension on that wiper. Coin payout is good all the way around. (Oh ya, and 20 is the lowest pay on this machine. Every pay is a "jackpot" and rings the bell. I think I know why someone had disabled it. )
I then concentrated my efforts on the reset issue. I was noticing that the coil would pull fully on GOOD resets and erratically on partial resets. So I started to think that maybe the coil was part of the issue. Since this machine has two hoppers I swapped out the coils. No luck. same result.
As the day got longer and the night got darker I started to notice a blue/green arc from the Reset Pawl Switches. I tried to clean them. Filed them with a Flex Stone. But was still not getting a good reset. I held them closed with a pair of hemostats and got complete resets everytime. So currently I believe my problem is in this switch. I'll concertrate my efforts today in that direction. Thanks for all the advise and especially for the support.

Aren't those darned Bally bells LOUD?
Two switches in your hopper reset circuit are the zero stop switch, and also the B switch on the left side of reel mech which is closed every time the variator pushes back. You might want to concentrate a little on the B switch, make sure it is well cleaned, and also, you might want to bend the whole assembly downward toward the variator bar so that it closes longer and more fully. You should always see the actuator side of the switch push and move the static side. they are supposed to be self-cleaning that way, but I don't know.
Post a picture of the machine if you can, I'd love to see it.
Also, you can bend the clapper of your bell closed slightly with needle-nose and that will lower the volume of your bell and tone it down a little bit.
Nice work!
oldreno

Several layers of tape would dampen the racket. On an 809 you almost never hear it tho!

***

PART II

Troubleshooting Bally EMâ€™s II

Here are a few more tips on those wonderful Ballys.
There seemed to be enough interest, so here goesâ€¦.

No handle release
In order for the handle paddle to drop, the handle release coil must first be energized.
This happens on the upstroke of the coin in switch, after the coin has pushed down the switch, and fallen off.
If a coin is holding down the switch, then you will never have upstroke, and the handle wonâ€™t release.
A very quick way to notice this is to look for the â€˜Coin Acceptedâ€™ light to be on.
When the first coin in pushes down the coin switch, the coin relay assembly is tripped. This is on the lower left side of the reel mech in the back, & is a latching relay. It is tripped electrically on downstroke, and reset mechanically during handle pull.
Among the switches on the coin relay are the circuit to the handle release coil (N.O.) and the coin accepted light (N.O.) and others.
So if coin accepted light is on, the coin relay is probably ok. Then check your handle release coil and switches, and also check the dashpot switch. A little tug on the pump arm will often close an open dashpot. & you may hear handle release coil engage. There are a lot of other switches involved in upstroke & if I had a schematic I could tell you moreâ€¦. I think the circuit involves going through the payout relay on hopper, and C switches on the reels, but again donâ€™t have access to a schematic.
Once the handle release coil trips, then and only then can you get 2nd coin odds, 3rd coin etc.

Checking machine for shorts.
The two outputs of the secondaries of the transformer are 6V and 50V. These are isolated circuits, and as I recall do not ground to case. The wires are solid blue (6V.) solid orange (50V), and solid yellow (the common wire) Shorts can cause many problems.
To quickly check for shorts, pull out the coin acceptor, and quickly touch a small pocket screwdriver to case, and then short it to the orange wire on the lockout coil. If you see sparks, or the machine dim, then youâ€™ve got a short. That checks the 50V. To check 6V, touch your screwdriver to case and quickly touch the blue wire coming from one of you door incandescent bulbs. (insert coin lite is a good one.) Again, sparks or the machine dimming are an indication of a short. The door bulb sockets are notorious for moving and touching to case. If you have the inclination you might want to put some heat shrink on them.
Next pull out, one at a time, your reel mech, top unit, and hopper, checking each time to see if the short disappears. If it does, then you have isolated it to any one of those units. Look for wire touching to case of any of those units, and correct the problem.
Be careful with shorts, Iâ€™ve seen one melt a good portion of a nickel stuck behind the coin acceptor arcing across the coin lockout relay.
Be aware that some operators would build an intentional short into the machine to stop cheating.
This is usually found as an orange wire soldered onto the coin lockout coil, and then with a fork-connector fastened to case with a screw. Remove this before checking for shorts.

Thanks,
Oldreno

Troubleshooting EM's Part lll

The Bally ElectroMechanical is the forefather of modern gaming. Many disagree, but I still think so.
While one-armed bandits dominated the scene for decades, the Bally opened the door to the modern wonders (?) of todays gambling.
Built long before flip flops, shift registers, and 4-bit architecture, it was a very sophisticated combination of electrical mechanical interfaces. In fact the 'money pin' paddle-less pinball machine was a prime example of EM technology gone wild. One of the harnesses is about as thick as my forearm...and it's not user friendly.
The EM is not only almost infinitely repairable, but is amenible to many modifications
I remember making parts in the shop to repair EM's because my slot manager was too cheap to buy parts.
Also, it had a 'different' pay structure, hit frequency, and randomness than today's machines.
Frequent low pays, many lower jackpots, and an easily changeable reel structure were great advantages.
Imagine, a one in 8,000 chance of hitting a jackpot!

How to check voltages and fuses.
This is something that can be done without opening the door.
If the fluorescent lights are on, and either the 'Insert coin", 'Coin Accepted", or "Winner Paid" lights are on, then you have 120V, 6V, and those fuses are good.
The remaining voltage, 50V can be checked by slightly pulling the handle and listening for the coin lock-out coil (on the door, behind the coin acceptor), to click in and out as you nudge the handle.
If you are missing some of the above, check your 3 (4) fuses behind the hopper.
If they are all good, look in the left hand corner of the machine behind the hopper.
That's where the time-out switch lives and lurks.

Time-out switch and Safety Timer.
Behind the hopper, left side of cabinet, generally.
The front of it is identified by a red pilot neon light, and a white push button.
If that light is on, then your hopper has run-away, timed out, and turned off the machine.
Push the white button next to it, and you should see power come up.
The safety timer is generally set for 45-90 seconds for a single coin machine, or 5-10 seconds or so for a multiple coin machine.
Do NOT adjust this with the machine plugged it.
On the back of the safety timer, between two nutted posts (caution) is another button. This button turns off the machine physically if you want to put it out of service, in addition to being the hopper runaway cutoff circuit.
In some models you may see a little push lever below the front of the hopper. This was installed by Bally to allow you to turn on the machine without having to pull out the hopper to push the reset button.
Generally a mechanic would reach behind the pilot neon and turn off the machine by hitting the back button.
Let me suggest a word of caution. Do not be holding on to the door or other metal parts while you push the 'off' button. There is some pretty heavy voltage going across those two nutted fasteners on both sides of the off switch.
If you short yourself across them, you WILL pay attention. We soon learned just how wide our fingers were, and arched them so we wouldn't touch the darned things.
The safety timer relay and motor kills the 120V to the machine.
Unplug your machine, and practice this maneuver until you're comfortable with it.
The safety timer is a 120V motor, slow turning, which moves a little wheel and metal tab (arrow) to the kill switch during payoffs. It makes a full turn in about 120 seconds.
If the timer bar hits the off button before it is reset, off goes the power to the machine.
We don't want it to time-out during proper pays, so, in the case of a single coin machine, this timer bar is set for about 45-90 seconds. (Actually I forgot the settings....)
If the pay is not made by then, then there is a possibility of a runaway pay or a dry hopper causing that condition.
This is generally enough time for making the highest pay (200 coins)
The case for multiplier machines is another whole story.

Thanks,
oldreno

Thanks again oldreno for your continuing EM posts.

As long as you've brought up the subject, I had a question or two.

The timeout device works fine on my Money Honey, but on my 5cm 1080 JPO it never kicks in.

I think that it is because I asked the seller to set the machine to pay out all pays instead of stopping at 400. The max is 1000 coins paid as 200 x 5, and disabling the timeout might have been part of what he did. Should I be worried about over taxing the hopper? It seems to be fine.

1. Could the timeout device be made to work without causing a problem paying out the top prize?

The machine has one other issue as well. The coin lockout works fine and de-energizes (engages) after playing more than the max coins, when the handle is partially pulled, and during the spin, but it doesn't stay de-energized (engaged) after the spin on a win when the machine is paying out. Instead it energizes (opens the coin path) right after the spin just like a loss - so it's not reading that a win has occurred.

As I'm sure you know, without the lockout if someone drops a coin into the machine when it's paying it will stop the payout cold and the player will not get the rest of the pay. It also messes up the position of the small counter wheel in the top of the machine for the number of coins played that game so the next time a player wins and triggers that counter the first pass will be short.

2. I haven't been successful at tracing why the coil doesn't stay de-energized during payouts. Any ideas?

Hi Statfreak,

I donâ€™t know how your vendor tricked out the 1000 coin pay, but I suspect he worked on the JPLockup relays & maybe some payboard work. You might want to unscrew the top unit odds lights board (or lower it if itâ€™s one of those) and watch to see if the JPlockup relay energizes during a JP. That might tell us something.
Anyway, the machine may last awhile paying out 1000 coins at a pop, but you should consider the wear on the hopper gearbox, and possible hot payout motor.
If you have a spare gearbox you could always tear it apart and swap bad gears. I might be able to find an old one around here that would work.
As far as heating up the payout motor, there is a little thermal device in the windings (youâ€™ll feel a bump on the motor windings) that shuts it down in theory if it gets too hot.
If it does, just let it cool off, and you may have to tap it with the handle of your screwdriver.

The coin lockout problem is probably in the payout relay switches on the back of the hopper. Check all those switches for opening and closing fully. Make sure when they close you see a little movement.
Other than that, you might also check the jackpot lockup relays in the top unit also for proper switch opening and closing. When a jackpot hits, one of the two JPLUrelays energize and open a switch to the coin lockout coil. This circuitry is to prevent customer from playing off a jackpot, and the lockout is re-energized by turning the jackpot reset switch. This is a parallel circuit, and keying the reset key will energize the lockout allowing a coin in for next game. Of course if it is always turned, your JP lockup wonâ€™t shut down the lockout coilâ€¦.
Check all those out and let me know what you find.

Also, hereâ€™s a little tip for restarting pays if someone accidentally inserts a coin when they shouldnâ€™t. Pull out the reel mech and reset the latching coin relay on lower left rear side to its normal position. Then reach up and lift up the handle release paddle. This should allow the machine to finish the pay. If it doesnâ€™t start paying, nudge the reels, or pull forward on the horseshoe-type carriage on the hopper. That sometimes works. Be sure you donâ€™t pull the handle or push the clock variator back because that will reset the hopper payboard to zero and start the pay all over again. We used to always check the payboard first in the event of short or mispays, to see what was already counted, and what remained.

Check the time-out motor during a pay to see if it is moving at all. You might carefully get a small mirror back there to watch. Empty the hopper, put up a pay, and wait 2 minutes or so to see if the machine turns off.
If that donâ€™t work, weâ€™ll figure out what next.
Hope that helps.

Yours,
Oldreno

Troubleshooting EM's Part lV

Multiplier Hopper Payoffs
Bally had several ways of counting payoffs. One was a mechanical linkage from the coin out roller, to physically step up the white 100 tooth hopper count gear.
Another way was to allow the coin out roller to pulse a set of switches which then powered briefly a 50V step up coil, to electrically step that gear. A third way was to use a hybrid combination of both in the case of a 'double up' machine.
The mechanical linkage system was built for single coin machines, 3-line jobbies, buy-a-pays, and 5-line criss-cross machines. You know, the ones which were not multipliers.
They were all pretty much straight pays.
The multipliers, however, can pay in progressing increments of 2, 3, 4, 5 or more coins bet per game.
The solution here is to count the pays through the mulitiplier wheels (x2, x3, x4, etc.) found in the top unit.
The Odds step up relay in the top unit is involved here, but that's discussion for another time.
(to watch your top unit work if you have no jumpers, simply remove the 4 screws holding the odds lights to the top unit frame, and pull that wooden piece forward. You can then watch the odds work and the X-units step during pays and work the relays to see how they operate.)
If one coin is played, no multipliers are used, and the step up coil is pulsed once for each coin out.
If 2 or more coins are played, then that specific multiplier is chosen to interface with the coin out step up coil.
In the case of the X2 circuit, for each coin paid out, the X2 coil steps once. However, becaused of the nature of the X2 board, only every second step of the board assembly causes power to get down to the hopper step up coil.
So, in essence, 2 coins are paid out, and the step up coil steps the payboard only one time.
Same thing occurs for all other multiples of coins played.
The X3 board is (you guessed it) only wired to count the hopper every 3 coins out.
Etc.
Why?
Good question.
It's what they had then.
On the back of your hopper payboard, mounted on the 100 tooth white plastic paygear, you will see another circular plastic piece which has notches in it. Also, there is a little tiny switch which rides on that outer ring. Every 5 steps of the payboard, the switch falls into that notch. This is an indication to the machine that the payboard is stepping up correctly.
IF the little switch falls into the notch during a pay, then this in turn indirectly temporarily cuts off power to the safety timer relay. This relay, timer motor, & cutoff bar you remember, are trying to hit the power down switch on the safety timer to turn off the machine. Also recall that it has a built in return spring.
If the hopper starts paying, and the payout count disk does not move, thus resetting the timer, then the machine will black out.
Not, after 45 seconds, as in the case of a single coin machine, but within 10 seconds or so, however you have it set.
This will stop runaways sooner, and allow less money to be lost in the event of a malfunction.
All this X-unit selecting is done by the odds disc which is reset when needed on the first coin in of the next game, and, I believe, makes its first step after the 2nd coin inserted.

oldreno

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When I saw this design for the first time I was very impressed. They had this production cookie cutter hopper that could only step up a maximum of 200 or maybe 250 coins and had to come up with mechanical solution to this problem. They also probably didn't want to have to redesign the hopper mech which was going into all machines. So they invented this design.

I've always thought it was a innovative solution.

btw oldreno, I haven't had time to test all of your suggestions yet. I will post back once I've done so. Thanks again for the help.

I finally have that hopper repaired......
It was purely mechanical and the switch had a lot of burn tracks.
In a nut shell the mechanical linkage was just wore out..
I had to bend some of the linkage that was not clearing out of the way for the 100 tooth gear to reset.
In the first picture you can see that after the coil pulls the ratchet linkage did not move all the way clear of the 100 tooth gear. (springs removed for picture clarity)

After I bent the linkage it would pull away from the gear. Unfortunately this linkage is case hardened and it did crack when it bent. It will have to be replaced.

I don't know how long my repair will last. Maybe a month, maybe a year?? I'll have to keep my eye out for replacement linkage.
also I added some pictures of this machine

I know what you mean about modifications....
I try to stay away from machines that have had the wiring monkeyed with.
This one is far from done, but at least it's paying properly and when it should. There is some added wiring and the winner paid, coin accepted, and insert coin lamps are not 100%. Tried removing some of the added on wiring to these lamps and a bunch of other stuff went dead. So for now I just re-soldered back that added on wiring and will have to run with that for now. Would like to find a wiring diagram for this machine. Somehow I think that's a lost cause.
Only other issue right now is the left reel fires off late. At the very end of the handle stroke. Sometimes you really have to pull the handle down REAL HARD. I tried adjusting the timing, but it doesn't seem to get any better.

That's a weird issue. Since the timer only controls the stoping of the wheels, I'd look at the arm that starts them. Also, does the reel spin freely?

I had one with this issue, it was old gummy grease on the linkage that spun the wheel. cleaned all the old grease out, put new grease in, spun like a champ when I was done.

No, It's not a lubrication issue. It more of a timing thing. This is a single mechanical arm connected to two reel units. The reel unit on the right fires off and spins first and the reel unit on the left fires off and spins at the very end of the handle stroke. Sometimes you have to really yank hard on the handle to get the left hand reel assembly to spin. I tried adjusting the 1/2" nut and spring tension on the right side of the left reel bank. It helped a little but I'm almost out of adjustment nut.

Sounds like something is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of adjustment. To the point of a part being missing. Have you watched the machine cycle, what seems to be not happening properly. I guess I'm going to have to go look at mine to see the operation of it again, but I recall it being quite straightforward even with the overengineered system it has to vary the spin of the reels.

Which is, btw, another thing to look at. There's an anti-cheat system in there that varies the speed of ALL the reels, then within that, another system that varies the spin of just ONE reel.

It's not an anti-cheat mechanism.

The variators were a very clever way of making the spins random in a mechanical device. That was a difficult problem for them to solve. First they wanted to disconnect the spin action from the pull arm to prevent players from trying to influence the outcome by the way they pulled the handle. That was a major improvement from the old mechanicals.

The problem then was that inherently, the springs would have the same tention every spin, and the various arms would be moved the same distance every spin, and the reels would have the same energy imparted to them every spin, and the lock-down timer would trip the arms with the same delay every spin. While that would have been good for most types of machines, it wasn't good for randomness and therefore wasn't good for slots.

Having those loosely coupled ratchets (which are on reels one and two - at least on my machines, {and one for the timer I think?}) with an off-center connection was ingenious at the time. Even those ratchets would not have been random unless they could be made so that they didn't always advance the same amount every spin. I never considered them to be "over engineered" by any means.

***********

When I refer to the right and left reel mech not firing off and spinning at the same time, I actually mean left and right reel Mechs.. Not left, center and right reels on one mech. See picture below.

I've never worked on one of those, but is there an adjustment at either end for the long bar that joins the two handle mechs or the flange that it goes into?
Is there any free play in the one on the left? (delay in movement when you start pulling the handle)
Those would be my guesses.

If not, maybe oldreno will jump in with a solution.

guess I totally misunderstood the question. Are you saying the entire left part of the machine is not spinning? I thought it was one machine and one set of reels, and just the leftmost reel was not turning. Sorry

*****

Ya got love walking away from a problem for a day. When you come back to it, you can look at it in a whole new perspective.
Yes the whole left reel assembly was not kicking off, or kicking off way late at the very end of the handle stroke. Not in time with the right hand side.
I was concertrating my efforts on the left reel assembly. Thought about today, and realized that if I adjusted the right hand reel assembly it would also change the timing of the left hand unit. Both are connected by a common shaft. Sure enough that did the trick.
I then had to re-adjust the dash pot switch on the right reel assembly, but it appears to be just what it needed.
And Yes, I can check each reel assembly outside of the cabinet with my new external handle tool. Works like a champ.

That looks like a nice work table. Just don't get any soldering iron burns on it.
They won't come out as easily as the scratches.

You got the hopper with the whiffle ball. mine has a spring affair. I don't know which is the first version.

I like your extension cord deal. did you make that yourself?

Whiffle ball came first I believe. My older Money Honey has a whiffle ball (less accurate). My JPO has a much larger hopper with the spring tension and has a weight balance switch. I found that if all of the coins are added to the hopper during normal play (not poured in) that the balance is accurate to within about 10-20 coins! That's pretty amazing with 1200 coins in the hopper.

Aaaahh. It's all making sense to me now..

I've never messed with a dual reel setup like that, so you can disregard any info from me...

I think I read the concept was taxes were charged according to the number of handles a machine had. Just another clever tax dodge.

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Hello. I normally restore The Mills Mechanical machines...Great Hobby...but I decided to try my hands at a Bally 809 5 coin Multiplier. After recieving the Pictorial book from mead, I was able to get almost everything working perfectly. I am having one major issue with payout. I beleave it has to do with the Multiplier setup.

Here is the problem.

One cherry should pay 2, two cherys 5...etc.

No matter how many coins put into the machine (up to 5) the payout is always X2. So I get four coins for cherry and 10 coins for two cherrys. This is consistant with all the other symbols. I get twice as much as I should.

If I put more than two coins in, I still only get the 2X payout.

2X wheel is turning in the multiplier and it is paying correctly for the 2X multiplier reel.

What do I need to do to get the machine "unstuck" from paying the 2X payout. All multipliers have been cleaned thoroughly.

Reading posts while at work....
There is a relay in the top unit called the jackpot lockup relay #1 (Also may have a 2nd one called JPLUR#2) the idea is that when you hit a jackpot, the machine bypasses the odds disc, uses the X2 multiplier unit and energizes the 100 pay segment of the payboard for a 200 coin drop. Remainder paid by attendant, and machine is locked up. This happens on most all hand pays. This arrangement forces you into the times-2 multiplier. If the relay is energizing, OR if one of the JPLUR#1 switches is sticking closed that may keep you permanently in x2-land. Physically depress the relay armature and watch each switch in the stack for proper full opening and closing. You should be able to check every switch in the top unit in under a minute or so with a little practice. Don't push the plastic/fiber switch actuator, but instead simulate what a coil does by pressing down on the metal armature. Otherwise, the switches may get pushed farther than happens in reality. ?
Also I assume that your odds relay disc is stepping up and resetting correctly?
Good luck Jedi.

YOU ARE MY NEW BEST FRIEND!!!! You got it!

I, as stated earlier, am familiar with mechanical slots like Watling, and Mills...ETC. The Electro's are new to me. I looked at all the relays, and noticed my stupidity. When I took the lockout relay out to give all the contacts a cleaning, I did something stupid. Before putting it back, I was holding it upside down and said to my self.." all the contacts are bent too far. I basically put it into a permanent jackpot lockout.

The machine is working great now.

Next is cosmetic.

Quick question...The symbols on the reels are not lined up well. Do I have to losen the strip and slide it? or is there an easier adjustment?

Loosen the 8 screws holding the reel together (4 on each side) and wiggle the reel into a good position. titen screws carefully. Might give you just enough to line up the symbols.
Otherwise you'll have to use a flat blade to pry open the reel crimps and then move the strip. Caution, the edges are sharp and will cut you quickly. then re-crimp with flat blade screwdriver and pliers, gently pressing the crimps back together.

******

Everything is all lined up now, and working great. I do have an extra part in the machine that is missing a solanoid and levers. it doesn't do anything. can someone tell me what this is for? It's located in the multiplier on the right side(looking at the front).

The machine seems to work perfectly without it and it's not mention in the mead pictorial guide to the best of my knowledge.

Mine has the same thing, part of some long gone accounting system I was told.

Is there a good product to use on the contacts to help preserve them? I've seen a product like Deoxit, will that help keep the contacts clean? It appears that contacts in my machine had one time been sanded or wire brushed.

Contact points? Well, from what I've gathered, so long as they wipe properly you don't have to worry about them. Contact cleaner is a BIG no-no, sanding is too, as is excessive burnishing.

A classic, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I am almost done with the restoring of my Bally 809 5-coin Multiplier. I have a question. the Machine has a button (press for service or change) on the front. That tells me there must have been a candle on top. My question is how many tiers are on the candle... One- service and change, or two...Service and change AND it lights when you win a Jackpot to signal someone to come over and pay off the balance.

Any help would be great.

I think those only had one light bulb.

****

My manual shows one of the tall candles. They used the tall because their was usually a marquee in front of it.
Send pic's when your done with it.

Thanks! The manual is a great help. I found out from another person that it would be one light with two bulbs in it. The first bulb (blinker) would be for the "Press for service button" and the other would light when a jackpot was lit. I am keeping an eye open on ebay to find one, and should make the machine 100%.

I will definately post pics when done.

I've got a Bally that has me stumped. Works great on the first coin. No other coins will increase the odds and the payout is always for one coin, even if I manually increase the odds my tripping the relay manually. 1st coin trips the odds reset relay...then no action on 2nd coin. Any thoughts?

If this is a Bally 809, it's pretty easy.

If you step up the odds unit and the payouts are the same, then you probably have some dirty contacts in those reels that look like score reels, or the odds unit itself and probably both.

Let me know what model you have.

It's a Bally 952... 5 coin with mult. progressive. The Odds Relay never fires. The Odds Reset Relay works with the first coin. The meter coins the first coin, but when I move the Odds Relay switch stack manually, the meter does not count up. I'm sure I'm missing something simple here. I've lubed the stepper units and they seem to work OK...never seen the Odds Follower Unit fire. Any help is appreciated.

Sorry most of the pictures are chopped let me know what model #'s you need diagrams for I just found these tonight around 30 different games exact pin outs and options for rewires. . Some rare diagrams for dice games and other 1090 91 1114 1115 and they are down to -21 -33 ect. 952 962 742 I don't see the popular models like 809 except 1090 -------Bob
Bump...

Took the progressive/odds assembly completly out of the loop...still can't get the Odds Relay to ever fire. I suspect the coil might be bad... I'm measuring 1.2M ohm across the coil.

*****

It should be about 90 ohms. Maybe the wire is broken at one terminal. In any case, I have some spares if you need one - PM your address. If it looks like these you can just swap out the coil and not need to resolder the contact stack.

I'm fine tuning my Bally 809 5-coin multi.. It works great, except for one thing that is new. The bell used to ring for the entire time I got a Bar payout. Now, it only rings for about a second, or not at all. I am having trouble reading the electrical diagram from my book. I know where the contacts are on the first reel board (3rd row in, third, forth and fifth down), but I cannot tell what relay is being activated by them According to the book, it is "F". Is that the Jackpot lockout? or is it a contact on the payout board?

Thanks!

P.S. What are the three circuit boards in front of my reels. I can hear the magnets in the reels activating them, but i don't see how they work with the machine.

The bell is on the 6V circuit in parallel with the jackpot candle. Its wire color is red and there are three way to turn it on - #1 Jackpot Lockup Relay, OR #2 Jackpot Lockup Relay, OR the "any 3 bar" contacts on the reels. The other side of the reels contact is a blue wire that goes to frame contact A (clock side). The other side of contact A is a green-white wire that goes down to the hopper to the win relay to ground. This circuit works the bell directly, according to the schematic - no relay involved. If the bell rings momentarily and then stops on an "any bar" winner, I would check the frame contact first. It's worked by a cam on the mech that may possibly still be moving when the payout begins, so the the contact may make and then break again.
Quote
P.S. What are the three circuit boards in front of my reels. I can hear the magnets in the reels activating them, but i don't see how they work with the machine.

I have no idea! I never heard of such a thing. If there are operating magnets on the reels, what symbol shows when they activate? The jackpot symbols, perhaps? Could be an extra circuit to call Security and throw you out when you win too much.

What magnets in the reels???? Other than wiper boards, there isn't that much else electric IN the reels and NOTHING electronic that I'm aware of. Thanks for the Bell info...That will help tremendously.

As for the Circuit boards, I have several.

One is located on the back of the cabinet where four relays plug in.

another is on the back of the front plate of the reel mech. This has three sets of wires that come off and

plug into sensors that are located in front of each reel.

if I look inside the reels, I can see small magnets. if I cycle the mech and hold the clock, I can spin the reels and they activate the sensors on the three circuit boards in front of each reel.

I will take pics of it tomorrow and post them.

Actually I never came across anyone wanting to get the bell working before. Most people want to know how to disconnect the noisy bloody thing.

Have the bell call security if winning to much? Cool idea.

The first couple of years at the store I started noticing about 1 out of 10 or so EM's coming in for repair with the 2 washers a nut and a bolt trick. I was like wow the mob really knew there stuff. "Here you go Billy a we get a half and a you get a the other half good for all party's but we will pay 100% of all the jackpots for you. Good deal huh? Yeah I thought so. Now if someone hit the 777 we will send Vinny and about 7

Almost sounds as though you have a Bally E series machine. Until you get to where you say the reel mech has a clock? E- series machine had reel readers and circuit boards, but no clock mech. The reels were stopped by a signal from the I/O board to three coils under the reel assembly.
Please post pictures

Bell problem fixed...it was a dusty contact.

I have had many machines that had the chrome frame around the belly glass dinged up and rusted. Many were worst than yours.
I could not locate any replacement frames for the belly glass, So I started making them myself. I have them avaliable in #8 mirror polished stainless steel. They will not rust and will maintain their mirror finish. Let me know if you need any.

NEONKISS

Is there anyway to adjust the door. As you can see mine leans to the right. I can see no adjustment, My lock plate is all the way up on the frame.

***

- they put washers each side of the starwheel to close one of the slots, so the reel could not stop at that position. I spotted this in the wild once, as I could see it through the window. How blatant - what a nerve!
Op-Bell, I found one just the other day.
The way this machine was set up it was impossible to hit a 777 on any line.
All three indexing disc were altered.

The chip on the board start with 82 on the second set of numbers.
Wow, that's not a temporary job! But that gaff is on a short slot, it looks designed to block a cherry, not a seven. That's an easy way to drop the payout by 5%. I recall there was an Indian casino in upstate New York, 20-odd years ago now, that was shut down by Federal marshals because all its machines were set to pay 50% or less. Since it was impossible to buy a machine that tight, they must have gaffed them like this.

I'm sure there's no truth in the rumor that the seized machines were handed over to the NY State Lottery, who discarded them because they were too liberal.

It's fine workmanship - too bad the filthy brute was too lazy to clean up his brazing mess.

Is there anyway to get the door to hang straight. Mine leans to to right. I cannot see any adjustments on the hinges, and the door catch on the right side is as high as it will go. The cabinet seems square. I am thinking of putting a washer or two between the door hinge mount and the inside cabinet (left side). If I do this to the bottom hinge, it may straighten out the door. But I have a feeling that it will cause the bottom left outside edge of the door to not be lined up with the cabinet.

Any advice would be great.

Wow, that's interesting, I thought the fact that I had to lift the door on both my IGT and Bally was due to their age and wear over the years.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I could take the right side bracket on the frame that has the tabs on it that fit into the door and remove it, "lengthen" the screw holes and put it back on a little higher. then the door would rest on the bracket, and be level. I would need to see if there is enough play in the door to be able to do it. It's not a big deal, but since I restore Slot machines, I kind of want everything to look "museum" quality and perfect. It's a project for a rainy day. Thanks to all who chimed in on this.

I have an old Bally 791 machine. These were double / twin machines. I want to know what was the original name of this machines game theme? The reels symbols are win dollar amounts.
I have seen other 791 machines that were fruit series and I have a picture of one that was called Double Deuces Wild. It appears that the game themes of the 791 series machines we "Double" ?? Somethings??
When I got my machine it had paper inserts in the reel glass that read "All Jackpots" I know that when any winning combination is hit the machine regesters as a jackpot and the inside bell is activated. Even after a payoff the bell continues to ring until the next coin is inserted and accepted. So would imagine "Jackpot ('s)" "Double" ? Something would have been the original theme name of this machine.??
I replaced the old reel glass inserts with new ones that I made with the name of "Double Super Jackpots" I 'm sure this was not the original name of the game.
I do need a top marquee for this machine and being that I will probably not find an original I will have to have one made. So before I do I would like to know the original name. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, However please be kind. One can really open themself up for criticism when asking for suggestions.

I think the org 742 was the first to use the $x.xx format on the reels in a game called "go for the money" and this was a very rare machine type not many made that I know of. but I believe yours is called "2 for the money" I will verify latter I have the papers on a machine like this in my shed from the frontier they had a similar one in use. I will also check with a friend before I am 100% on this question i could be wrong it happens

OAG

Thanks OAG,
Any info that you can share about this machine will greatly be appreciated.
Let me know if you have any schematics on this one also. I would be happy to buy a copy from you.