Game Change question

[Mildly Annoyed]

I want to change back and forth between a Double Diamond Deluxe ( SP 1160 ) and a Black Tie ( SP 1271 ) format.

My Dollar Bill Acceptor is removed and the DDD is set to the most common values.

Will I need a Set chip to change from DDD to BT ? Or will it preserve the settings ?

thanks.

[Buzz]

To change between these two games you don't even need to change the SP chip.      SP1160  type 0, 1, 4, 5
                                                                                                                          SP1271  type 0, 1, 4, 5, 19

Double Diamond Deluxe is type 5, and Black Tie is type 0   The SS chip is the only one needed for this game change. Let me use a example to make this clear. Say you wanted to change to one of the Haywire games. You would look in the Bible and see Haywire is a Type 2 game. You would then need a different SP chip because the two you now have do not support a Type 2

Set chip only sets the BV (bill acceptor)

[stayouttadabunker]

Buzz is right...just change the SS reel chip.
You don't need a Set chip because your machine denomination is already set and all settings are saved.

[Buzz]

I want to change back and forth between a Double Diamond Deluxe ( SP 1160 ) and a Black Tie ( SP 1271 ) format.

My Dollar Bill Acceptor is removed and the DDD is set to the most common values.

Will I need a Set chip to change from DDD to BT ? Or will it preserve the settings ?

thanks.

Bunker  He doesn't have a BV.

[Mildly Annoyed]

Thanks.

That was the missing piece in my brain tying the SP chip to the game.

I do have a Bill validator and it is enabled. It is just not in the machine right now. It is running on Tokens.

It's nice to know it will still work if I ever did go back to Quarters.

[stayouttadabunker]

Buzz is right...just change the SS reel chip.
You don't need a Set chip because your machine denomination is already set and all settings are saved.

I want to change back and forth between a Double Diamond Deluxe ( SP 1160 ) and a Black Tie ( SP 1271 ) format.

My Dollar Bill Acceptor is removed and the DDD is set to the most common values.

Will I need a Set chip to change from DDD to BT ? Or will it preserve the settings ?

thanks.

Bunker  He doesn't have a BV.

But Buzz? I knew that...?
All I said was that he does NOT need a Set chip? 
His denom settings will remain the same as whatever was already on it? No?

[Buzz]

But Buzz? I knew that...?
All I said was that he does NOT need a Set chip? 
His denom settings will remain the same as whatever was already on it? No?

 Bunker I don't know, I just posted everything I know about a S+.  remember I'm OLD and forgetfull.   







Fixed a broken quote tag. -KN

[stayouttadabunker]

lol that's okay Buzz...
Let's just say the heat is getting to ya and stick with that story okay? 
Have a cold one for me!  

[Mildly Annoyed]

Well, It went OK

Changed the Glass, Strips and Reel Chip. Powered on. Got a 67. Powered Off / On. Got a 61. Pressed White Button until ' Ding '. Closed Door and turned Jackpot Reset once.

Wheels spun and stop with Purple 7 on payline on Reel #1 and 1 position below payline on Reels #2 and #3.

Weird, since the DDD always seemed to stop with the symbols lined up.

Strips are lined up right and it pays correctly.

Funny too, though, it hit Black Tie - Red 7, Red 7 after the first 8 coins for 400. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Buzz]

After you do a clear, on boot up the reels will stop with the ends of the reel strips lined upon the pay line. ( I think they call that the #1 position, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it)

Good work glad it's working.

[knagl]

Wheels spun and stop with Purple 7 on payline on Reel #1 and 1 position below payline on Reels #2 and #3.

Weird, since the DDD always seemed to stop with the symbols lined up.

Strips are lined up right and it pays correctly.

That's normal.  After a game change the machine will usually spin to blank - blank - blank  at the top seam of the reel strips, HOWEVER, if three blanks is a paying combination for the game that is installed, it will offset one of the reels by one position to result in a non-paying spin.  Since three blanks is a paying combination in Black Tie, that's why it did what it did.  (...and since three blanks isn't a paying combination on your Double Double Diamond game, it spins to that.)


Edited to add: For the benefit of anyone looking at this in the future interested in changing the theme in their S+ machine, there's a very nice tutorial available here in the FAQ files that explains the necessary steps.

[StatFreak]

Wheels spun and stop with Purple 7 on payline on Reel #1 and 1 position below payline on Reels #2 and #3.

Weird, since the DDD always seemed to stop with the symbols lined up.

Strips are lined up right and it pays correctly.

That's normal.  After a game change the machine will usually spin to blank - blank - blank  at the top seam of the reel strips, HOWEVER, if three blanks is a paying combination for the game that is installed, it will offset one of the reels by one position to result in a non-paying spin.  Since three blanks is a paying combination in Black Tie, that's why it did what it did.  (...and since three blanks isn't a paying combination on your Double Double Diamond game, it spins to that.)


Edited to add: For the benefit of anyone looking at this in the future interested in changing the theme in their S+ machine, there's a very nice tutorial available here in the FAQ files that explains the necessary steps.

   I couldn't have said it better myself...   ...  so I didn't.

[Mildly Annoyed]

Now there's an expert.   No dis-respect to sideways looking pigs !

I forgot whether the symbols lined up above or below, but I remember it was one or the other. Not on the line itself.

As mentioned, and a day later, I can say that the Black Tie hit 400 coins on the 8th Coin in, and since then has racked up to 800 coins 1 day later.

Suspicious to say the least. Interesting to say the most. Time will tell, but I think I know where this is leading ( Much to the delight of children )

The Reel Chip for the BT is SS4626

The DDD had chip # SS4251 which wasn't, observationally, nearly so generous, even given the similar odds and slightly lower payout Win Freq.

Is it possible this is a " Promotional Chip " ( Double Quotes intentional IE... Double, Double Fingers )

Are the different Reel chips really different marketing ' flavors ' ? ( Single Quotes intentional IE... My Marketing experience better not talked about )

And : Thanks for the link reference.Reason understood. Will try to work more towards that cause.

also, the moniker is a pic I took called ' Wall of Faces ' with a caption of ' See how many you can find ' and submitted it to National Geographic recently. ( Upside down and sideways count too )

Just mentioning that in case they try and stiff me

[StatFreak]

...
Are the different Reel chips really different marketing ' flavors ' ? ( Single Quotes intentional IE... My Marketing experience better not talked about )
...

Different chips for the same game theme are usually pretty close to one another. They usually make small changes to the lower and mid payouts to adjust the total payback percentage to the player. It doesn't take as many changes as you might think to go from 85 to 97 percent. The top prizes within a specific game are usually not changed, but there are exceptions.

However, different games definitely have different flavors!! And it is ALL about catering to different customer preferences!    Some players like to hit frequent small wins to keep them playing and don't play for, or expect to hit anything large. Other players don't mind having long dry spells in exchange for a chance at a juicy medium, or really large payout. Some like more of a balance.

Some players prefer lower top prizes that are more "attainable", while others look for life changing jackpots. If it weren't for the variety, this hobby would be very boring. 

The play of the game is as important as the psychology of the color choices, the artwork, or the music when marketing a game to the public.

...
As mentioned, and a day later, I can say that the Black Tie hit 400 coins on the 8th Coin in, and since then has racked up to 800 coins 1 day later.

Suspicious to say the least. Interesting to say the most. Time will tell, but I think I know where this is leading ( Much to the delight of children )
...

It's not suspicious in the least. I wouldn't even call it interesting.

The Black tie is a 64 stop game, so there are a total of 262,144 combinations. Playing the machine for a day at home would, at best, represent about 5,000 spins. That would be playing steadily at 600 pulls per hour (one pull every six seconds, pauses included) for over 8 hours straight. I'm guessing that you didn't play anywhere near that much.

The nominally indicated payback on these games isn't expected to be approached until at least 100,000 to 200,000 spins, and in many cases, won't settle down until several million spins. That's why the PAR sheets are based on outcomes of 10,000,000 spins.  5,000 spins is barely the first drop in a very large bucket.


The DDD is a 72 stop game, which means that there are 373,248 combinations -- an even larger pool. However, the Black Tie SS4626 has only 1 top prize combination that pays 2500 for 1 with odds of 262,144:1 of hitting it, while the DDD SS4251 has 8 top prize combinations that pay 800 for 1 with odds of only 46,656:1.

Over the long term, for any given number of max bet spins, the DDD will payout about 8,990 coins for every 5,000 coins that the BT pays out on their respective top prizes. The DDD second level prize is about 2.4 times as likely to hit as the second level prize of BT, paying back about 1.5 times as much money for any given number of spins, so the DDD weights a larger percentage of its payback on the top prizes than the Black Tie does.

That is also borne out in the hit frequency. BT has a higher hit frequency than DDD does, because it pays out slightly more of it's money on the more frequent, smaller wins.


Remember, these machines are random, and every outcome possible is available to occur on every spin. In game theory, it's called independent trials. These machines do not make "adjustments" to payouts based on "keeping track" of past wins and losses, and contrary to the belief of some, there is no empirical evidence that these machines pay more after being cleared. I have shown several times why that is really not possible, and other software and firmware experts on NLG agree with me. In the short term, anything can happen!!

...
The Reel Chip for the BT is SS4626

The DDD had chip # SS4251 which wasn't, observationally, nearly so generous, even given the similar odds and slightly lower payout Win Freq.

Is it possible this is a " Promotional Chip " ( Double Quotes intentional IE... Double, Double Fingers )
...

Again, I don't know how long you had the DDD installed, but DDD will have longer periods of loss but more mid level payouts than the BT in the LONG RUN, while BT will have more small wins and fewer larger ones.


With DDD, you've got a 1 in 1,181 overall chance of hitting one of the 160, 200, 320, or 640 coin (max bet) payouts and a not too shabby 1 in 46,656 chance of winning the 1600 coin jackpot.

With the BT, you will have 1 in 1,618 overall chance of hitting one of the 200, 300, 400 or 1000 coin (max bet) payouts and a lousy 1 in 262,144 chance of winning the 5000 coin jackpot.



<EDIT/ADD> These are not promotional chips. There are tournament chips which pay back anywhere from 800% to 2500% when in tournament mode. That makes the tournaments more exciting since the players are playing for points on the machines, not actual money, and win fixed prize amounts regardless of how "generous" the machines are.

S+ tournament chips also have regular pay tables in them so that tournament mode can be turned on or off as needed.

StatFreak

[stayouttadabunker]

After reading this last post...I'd have to say that I had a 99.99% chance of hitting the karma+ button!  
Awesome post Stat!
The best I've read on one's chances of winning on a slot machine in a long, long time!!!  
You really should publish something like this and throw it out on the world wide book market -
it may be the next best thing since John Scarne !!! 

[Ron (r273)]

Can you repeat that?

Excellent post Stat? Kama +

If I would have known all that it would have took me two days to type
all that in one post.

Ron (r273)

[StatFreak]

...
it would have took me two days to type
all that in one post.

Ron (r273)

                       I have fa^st fingers. 

[Mildly Annoyed]

Thank you for that. 

Someone asked me once if I knew how all the odds worked. I didn't.

Can that be added to the Rick's FAQ Files section ?

That may save someone else from ingesting large amounts of shoe leather.

[knagl]

Of note, too, your SS4626 chip for your Black Tie game is not a tournament chip -- it has a payback percentage of 96.188 (per the game bible).  As Stat very nicely pointed out, that payback percentage is calculated over the very long term -- anything can happen (much better or much worse results) in the short term.

Also important to note, each spin is an independent event, and the outcome of the previous spin has zero impact on the outcome of the next spin.  Even though you've been "lucky" lately with some good wins, that luck could run out, or it could continue -- the machine does not adjust payouts based on previous results.
 

[Mildly Annoyed]

OK. But to go to the next level if I may ...

Myself, being a walk away from the table ahead kind of a guy, rather than hoping for some big elusive payout, and based on experience with the 2 types of chip behaviors ;

If I was going to go to a casino, I would lean towards a Black Tie type machine rather than a Double Diamond Deluxe type machine if I knew those percentages in advance. Any Black Tie chip would be preferable to me given the 1 Top Cycle hit values and higher hit % .

I will spew my ignorance out in saying that I don't know what machines are currently in casinos. S2000's ? A newer model, like Video Games ?

Are there chip odds available for current machines similar to the S+ info in the FAQ ?

Of course, if a large number of members of this site are current casino employees and would therefore resent me pressing this point, let me know and I will desist as it is only a matter of curiosity ( And maybe something to think about in that yearly trip ) .

[uniman]

I think it is safe to say that most members here are not casino employees. And most of the modern machines today have the ability to have several different casino selectable percentages. That is to say they can have the percentage changed without changing chips. Not sure on what the rules are for changing percentages, would guess each jurisdiction has it's own rules.

Isn't technology great!

[Foster]

A S2000 can use a S+ SS reel chip (only one percentage per chip) with a SB001000 Base Chip

If the theme has a matching SB Chip it will have 6 or so different payback percentages they change the virtual reel strips to change the payback which is the same they do for SS chips

On a S2000 to change the payback percentage (game or paytable) you need a key chip to enable access to that option in the machine.
In a casino setting access to to the key chip is restricted to a select few people and what procedures are used depends on the gaming regulations for that casino
I have gotten game, base and version chips without any security tape on them, yes they did come from a casino and are original IGT chips (that jurisdiction didnt use tape)
I didnt think I would call a set of chips Minty IF PROM's could be called Minty that set I got are it.

[knagl]

Myself, being a walk away from the table ahead kind of a guy, rather than hoping for some big elusive payout, and based on experience with the 2 types of chip behaviors ;

If I was going to go to a casino, I would lean towards a Black Tie type machine rather than a Double Diamond Deluxe type machine if I knew those percentages in advance. Any Black Tie chip would be preferable to me given the 1 Top Cycle hit values and higher hit % .

Only the casinos know the exact hold percentage assigned to any one machine, however, generally speaking, games that have a smaller top award tend to hit a lot more frequently.  As Stat likes to mention, the game Sizzling 7s has a pretty small top award, and in turn it hits very frequently.  Compare that to a game like "Ten Times Pay" with a large award, and that top award hits a lot less frequently.

Hold percentages are typically adjusted by adding or removing some of the lower and mid-range pay symbols.  Almost always the odds of hitting the top award for a game remain the same, whether there's an 88% chip or a 98% chip in there.

[StatFreak]

There are actually two reasons why the Sizzling Sevens games hit their top prizes frequently. The first, already mentioned, is the low top payout. The second -- and more important -- is that they are buy-a-pay hybrids, i.e., the sevens combinations are purchased with an extra coin, which doesn't affect the bar payouts.

Another good example of this design are many of the Quick Hit machines. The models I'm referring to are the buy-a-pays where the third or fourth coin buys the quick hit mini-progressive.

[StatFreak]

Details:
For the most part, slots and video poker machines are games that allow the player to make a single wager that covers many outcomes. This necessitates that the odds of hitting any outcome be significantly less than the payout for that outcome.

Contrast that with most table games where each separate outcome in which the player wants to participate must have it's own wager. Roulette is the best example. Craps is also played that way for the most part, although there are some slot-style bets, such as playing the Field. There are also some groups of wagers which the player can cover with one bet, but the payouts are reduced accordingly.


Buy-A-Pay vs. CM example:
If the designers of a non-buy-a-pay slot were to set the payouts according to the odds of hitting each outcome, the game would payback n times the desired amount, where n were the number of different winning combinations on the machine.

Look at it this way: Suppose I want to design a slot that either takes one coin or is a standard cm (coin multiplier), and that has three winning combinations: three cherries, three single bars, and three sevens. Let's say that I want to pay back 90% to the customer and that there are 1000 combinations on the machine (10³). Let's also say that there are 100 combinations of cherries, 10 combinations of bars, and 1 combination of sevens.

True odds:

0.001  1 in 1000 for 777
0.01    1 in 100 for BBB
0.1      1 in 10 for ChChCh

If I paid back 90% of each, then:

1 coin  Total combinations: 1000. Total Coin in: 1000
777      pays 900 coins x    1 comb. = 900
BBB      pays   90 coins x  10 comb. = 900
ChChCh pays    9 coins x 100 comb. = 900
Total Coin out: 2700, or 270%

And I end up paying back 2700 (3 x 900) coins for every 1000 coins played. Oops!
My error remains the same if I make it a 3cm, but ends up magnifying the casino's loss rate:

3cm  Total combinations: 1000. Total Coin in: 3000
777      pays 900 x 3 coins = 2700 x   1  comb. = 2700
BBB      pays   90 x 3 coins =  270 x  10  comb. = 2700
ChChCh pays    9 x 3 coins =    27 x 100 comb. = 2700
Total Coin out: 8100, or 270%



To bring it into the desired range, I'd have to reduce the payouts by an overall factor of 3, from 900/90/9 to 300/30/3:

3cm  Total combinations: 1000. Total Coin in: 3000
777      pays 300 x 3 coins bet = 900 x    1 comb. = 900
BBB      pays   30 x 3 coins bet =  90 x   10 comb. = 900
ChChCh pays    3 x 3 coins bet =     9 x 100 comb. = 900
Total Coin out: 2700, or 90%


But let's say that instead of a cm, I design it as a 3-coin Buy-A-Pay.

The first coin "buys" only the cherry win,
The second coin "Buys" the bar win,
and finally, the third coin "buys" the sevens win.

3BP  Total combinations: 1000. Total Coin in: 3000.
777      pays 900 coins x     1 comb. = 900 (only with three coins bet)
BBB      pays   90 coins x   10 comb. = 900 (only with two or three coins bet - but the third coin doesn't affect this payout)
ChChCh pays   10 coins x 100 comb. = 900 (with one or more coins bet -- but betting extra coins doesn't affect this payout)
Total Coin out: 2700, or 90%


Now, I can pay the full 900/90/9 coins for the combos and I'm going to pay out the same 2700 coins per 1000 spins for the same three coins bet. If the player chooses to bet less than max coin, they will still be paid back 90% of whatever they wager.

But wait, you say! The payback is identical for the BAP with 3-coins bet as it is for the corrected 3cm game with 3-coins bet. True, but now comes the magic!

Most real buy-a-pay machines are a hybrid of the buy-a-pay concept and coin multipliers and also often buy more than one paying combination per coin, but the principle is the same. So let’s make our machine a hybrid where the first two coins buy and multiply only the lower payouts, and the third coin buys the jackpot, and let’s massage the numbers a bit:

3cm/BP  Total combinations: 1000
1-coin: Total Coin in: 1000
BBB      pays   30 coins x  10 comb. = 300
ChChCh pays    5 coins x 100 comb. = 500   (weight the cherries to pay more of the money so the player doesn't lose as quickly)
Total Coin out: 800, or 80%

2-coins: Total Coin in: 2000
BBB      pays   30 x 2 coins bet =  60 x   10 comb. =   600
ChChCh pays    5 x 2 coins bet =  10 x 100 comb. = 1000
 Total Coin out: 1600, or 80%

3-coins: Total Coin in: 3000
777       pays 1,100 x 1 coin bet  = 1100 x     1 comb. = 1100 ( paid only with three coins bet)
BBB       pays      30 x 2 coins bet =    60 x   10 comb. =   600 { these do not increase }
ChChCh  pays        5 x 2 coins bet =    10 x 100 comb. = 1000 { with the third coin      }
Total Coin out: 2700, or 90%


NOW, we’re getting somewhere!! By excluding the lower payouts from the last coin bet and slightly lowering their payouts, I can add the difference onto the buy-a-pay jackpot and actually pay back more than 100% for that prize! Not only that, but the odds of winning that 1,100 coins are actually only 1 in 1,000! I still make money for the casino because the player can’t bet on the top prize alone; he must place the lower wagers first.

If all three payouts were based on a single coin played (and then multiplied) I could not do this in a practical manner.