HELP - Double Red White Blue acting up again!

[slotsx2]

Some may remember the post several months ago about this machine. It had a bad short, which turned out to be the handle solenoid.... some tend to doubt that conclusion, but despite what a few may think, that was indeed the problem.

Never the less, it ran GREAT after that problem was fixed. I could put in 400 Credits and get the machine up to 12-15000 credits in a week or so. It hit Double Red White Blue on a regular basis. That was then........

A week or 2 ago, it suddenly began to refuse to pay out anything, which it had done before. It would eat up 1000 credits in no time, which I was able to cure
with a Ram Clear, and it would IMMEDIATELY begin to payout again. I can do a Ram Clear and have the machine up and running in less than 10 minutes......

ANYWAY....... Now NOTHING i do will make it pay out anymore. For a week, all it does is eat hundred dollar bills as fast as I can swallow a beer, and that's FAST!

I've tried other games such as TRIPLE TRIPLE DIAMOND, 4 TIMES DIAMOND, DOUBLE DOUBLE DIAMOND........ It will NOT payout on any game I throw at it!
It's a credit eating machine now...............

My main question is, can there be something I'm not aware of that can go wrong with a slot machine to cause it to eat credits?? I tried a new MPU, no change!
I'm about to chuck this machine on my curb for the trash man.
ANY HELP would be GREATLY appreciated!!!! 

JR

[StatFreak]

Something definitely doesn't sound right.

First, how could you put 400 credits in a machine with a standard SB chip and end up with 12,000-15,000 credits on a regular basis? If you could count on constantly winning amounts that large for over a year with regular play, then something was wrong. How many times were you able to parlay 400 in to 10,000+ during the year? How many spins during the year? Did you play off the credits each time (lose them back)?

Second, are you saying that now it never lands on a winning combination, and that this has occurred with four different games? Over how many spins?


I've never heard of a slot where the random number generator crapped out, but I suppose it's possible. However, you said that you used a different MPU, so that would seem to rule out the RNG failure theory.

[cowboygames]

But to have the RNG crap out on 4 differant SB chips? Odds would exceed those of hitting the Powerball twice in a row

[StatFreak]

But to have the RNG crap out on 4 differant SB chips? Odds would exceed those of hitting the Powerball twice in a row

The RNG isn't on the SB chip. However, swapping the MPU rules it out, IMHO.

[slotsx2]

My immediate question is, "How can a machine play for almost 6 MONTHS, paying out good for weeks at a time after a ram clear, only to have the RNG come into play at 6 months and prevent any game to be played on said machine???"

A ram clear clears all memory of all wins and losses, machine data, counters, etc., etc. that the machine has made prior to the clear, thus leaving the machine in the same state as it was 6 months ago when I got the machine??

I completely understand how the RNG  works in principle, but to continuously pay out after each ram clear for 6 months, then proceed to cease paying out at this point regardlous which game is installed on said machine, seems like more than just coincidence to me ??

[poppo]

My main question is, can there be something I'm not aware of that can go wrong with a slot machine to cause it to eat credits??

It's a slot machine. It's supposed to eat credits.  

But as noted above, we need more info. Are you saying it never hits ANY winning combo, or it just isn't hitting as often as you would like?

IMO any previous 'winning streak' was actually the unusual event.

[poppo]

I completely understand how the RNG  works in principle, but to continuously pay out after each ram clear for 6 months, then proceed to cease paying out at this point regardlous which game is installed on said machine, seems like more than just coincidence to me ??

The debate over whether a clear makes a machine payout more often has been debated several times. I for one (along with others) don't believe it does anything to change the odds. A random number generator is just that. Maybe it will pay out more often and maybe it won't (cleared or not). I think yours is just operating as it should. By pure luck it previously paid out more, and now it's not.

[StatFreak]

If the machine is operating properly, then I agree completely with poppo. While it is true that the RNG is reseeded during a full clear, this would not cause the machine to payout more frequently. I've discussed the technical reasons for this in past threads, as have some of our other experts like Stolistic.

Now it's possible, however unlikely, that your machine is not operating properly, but so far, you've only given us anecdotal information. To determine whether or not the machine is malfunctioning we'd need hard data. If you've cleared your machine each time, you most likely don't have any, unless you wrote down all of the bookkeeping values before each clear.

For starters, you could post the current book values in the machine. I would also like to know your chosen jackpot lockup limit, the specific SB chip, and the payout percentage you selected.


P.S. Since this is an S2000, I'll also need to know if your machine is setup for multi-denomination and if so, what percentages were selected for each. The bookkeeping info should tell me the base and accounting denominations. Oh, and I'll need the SG chip number as well.

[slotsx2]

I  SAT HERE TYPING FOR HALF AN HOUR AND MY POST DISSAPPEARED, lol.
I will repost later. Limits are as follows.....

CREDIT LIMIT - 99999
JACKPOT LIMIT - 99999
BILL LIMIT - 1000

SB100070
SG000363
SINGLE DENOM
98.04?

[StatFreak]

  TIP: When typing long posts, copy and save the text to a Word document every few minutes. If it's important enough, SAVE the Word document to the desktop each time. Delete the Word doc after the post is made.

I leaned that the hard way.


SF

[StatFreak]

I don't think any numbers are going to help much.


1. According to the thread below, you cleared the machine just over three months ago in late April. You probably haven't played enough games since then to make a statistical difference, unless you played the machines almost every single day for two to three hours a day, and even then it would be a small sample. In addition, you stated in the thread that you set it to multi-denomination.

S2000 reels spin slow



You just told me that it's single denom, which makes some sense since you stated in your first post that:

...
A week or 2 ago, it suddenly began to refuse to pay out anything, which it had done before. It would eat up 1000 credits in no time, which I was able to cure
with a Ram Clear, and it would IMMEDIATELY begin to payout again. I can do a Ram Clear and have the machine up and running in less than 10 minutes......

ANYWAY....... Now NOTHING i do will make it pay out anymore. For a week, all it does is eat hundred dollar bills as fast as I can swallow a beer, and that's FAST!
...

SO, if you've just cleared it again, you'll have no bookkeeping data to speak of.



2. According to this thread posted in March, you bought the machine less than a year ago. (The phrase "a few months earlier" suggests perhaps November or December 2010),so this issue of six months of play immediately following a ram clear could have only occurred ONCE since you bought it.

TITO


3. Finally, you have a 5-line machine, which pays much more frequently than a cm, but for less each time, of course. So your telling me that you hit "double Red White & Blue" all the time doesn't mean much without specifics, since you'd be expected to hit it five times as often as on a single line machine.


Given all these facts, I sincerely doubt that there is anything wrong with your machine. Most home players don't play their machines nearly as much as they think they do.


Final advice: Stop worrying, stop clearing your machine, and just enjoy it.


StatFreak

[StatFreak]

...
A week or 2 ago, it suddenly began to refuse to pay out anything, which it had done before. It would eat up 1000 credits in no time, which I was able to cure
with a Ram Clear, and it would IMMEDIATELY begin to payout again. I can do a Ram Clear and have the machine up and running in less than 10 minutes......

ANYWAY....... Now NOTHING i do will make it pay out anymore. For a week, all it does is eat hundred dollar bills as fast as I can swallow a beer, and that's FAST!

<ADD> Your own posts tend to validate that the RAM clear had nothing to do with your short-term luck (although, again, three attempts doesn't even begin to build a statistical sample here). You had good luck after one or two clears, and now have bad luck after another clear. It's nothing more than short-term volatility.

SF



<EDIT> Don't feel bad. Watch this guy and have a good laugh.
How the Slot Machine Works LMAO

[slotsx2]

No, I had good luck after several dozens of clears, which to me, supports my theories that the ram clear wipes out all history of past payouts, etc....

I would have maybe 6000 credits in it when it began to stop paying out good, so I would do a clear, insert the 6000 credits back into the machine and several thousand more. The machine then began to pay out at a great rate again. I would then build my 6000 up to maybe 9000 or 10000 credits before it began to pay slow again. I would then cash out the 10000, do a clear and re-insert the 100000 credits and again several thousand more, it would start paying good again.

This is what I'm talking about. I don't do this so much anymore, but these instances support my questions about why it won't do this anymore??
I don't really care that much that it stopped paying out so good, I just wanted an answer as to why, not just conjecture.

Thanks,
JR

[StatFreak]

No, I had good luck after several dozens of clears, which to me, supports my theories that the ram clear wipes out all history of past payouts, etc....
...
This is what I'm talking about. I don't do this so much anymore, but these instances support my questions about why it won't do this anymore??
...
I just wanted an answer as to why, not just conjecture.

Thanks,
JR

The S2000 is a Class III gaming machine. By legal definition, each outcome must be an independent trial. That is, past events have no effect on the current outcome or future outcomes.

If you've cleared your machine dozens of times over a period of less than one to two years, you have no long-term data. Again, just because you had good fortune after some clears doesn't mean that you will continue to do so. By clearing the machine the moment that you perceived the payout to be dropping, you invalidated any long-term analysis. If you continued to play the machine without clearing it, you no doubt would have experienced another "hot streak" some time down the road.

PROPOSED EXPERIMENT:
Now, if you want to repeat your experiment, by all means, do so. Clear the machine, play it until it seems to lose steam, then WRITE DOWN all of the book values and clear it. Write down the values every time before clearing! Repeat this until you have at least 100,000 plays in total. Now add up all of the book values from each run and look at the grand totals to see if they are within a reasonable range for your game at 100k pulls.

That would be an objective way of determining your claim.

---------------------------------------------

Okay, let's start here. This post explains how a stepper slot selects an outcome.
However, there is a lot of misinformation in the thread, and a lot of sorting out to do when reading it. 
I would not recommend this thread as your first read. Go back to it after reading the other two threads.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=5905.msg52389#msg52389
<ADD> Although I said, "As I understand it, the RNG uses bit shifting against a polynomial," that is in fact, exactly how the numbers are calculated.


Here are two decent threads that touch on the subject.
Debunking Slot Myths: The Random Number Generator in Class III Gaming
Regulatory Issues


In particular, look at these posts:  I consider Op-Bell, Uniman, knagl, Stolistic and myself to have the best understanding of this subject, however, not all of us are represented in these threads.
You are free to draw your own conclusions and to search NLG further for more information.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=9674.msg83121#msg83121
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=9674.msg83133#msg83133
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=9674.msg83142#msg83142
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=9674.msg83154#msg83154   Regarding Class II machines and cycles of payouts.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg2265#msg2265

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg22011#msg22011  Op-Bell
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg22017#msg22017  the rebuttal
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg22023#msg22023  the counter rebuttal
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg22041#msg22041  counter R. pt. II.  Click on the links for an understanding of normal distribution and CHI square calculations.

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg22643#msg22643
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=241.msg32917#msg32917


Stat

[kforeman]

You have no idea how many times we hear similar complaints on the casino floor every day.  "I put $2000 in this machine and I can't win anything!!  It’s due to pay off!"  What makes it even more hilarious is that they are playing a Sizzlin 7 game with a top award of $1000.   

Jim your theory on slot math and how a slot machine pays out is a bit off sir.  Do you realize that even with the top payback percentage available with your base program (98.039%) that you will still only see the top award once in every 1,048,576 spins on average?  This is based off of a simulation program that has “playedâ€� this game 10,000,000 times.  Did you know that there are 128 virtual reel stops for each reel with your program?  That calculates out to 2,097,152 different reel combinations possible for every game you play on your machine.

As Stat and others have mentioned, you got very, very lucky if you hit several large wins in the low number of games you have played on it.  RAM clearing isn’t going to do much for improving your odds of “hitting big,â€� the math is simply against it.

These games with high top awards and enticing multipliers are designed to eat players’ money.  This program will give you enough of the mid range pays (IMHO 200-600 credits) to keep you thinking that you’re doing well enough to put another C-Note in the machine.  And the next time you’re visiting the casino you’ll probably try that machine again because you “wonâ€� on it last time.  We like for players to have high “time on deviceâ€� because its more likely that they will feel like they are winning if they hit those mid level wins but keep playing and put it all back plus some of their own cash.  In the long run the machine always wins, why do you think these casinos make so many billions of dollars?  Slot machines account for at least 65-70% of casino revenue, more at most places I think.  I know here at my casino that we make nearly 90% of the revenue for the building.  Slot machines are money makers and these newer games are getting more refined at it; some of the math on new games is insane to look at.

Please don’t be offended Jim, your opinion is one that is shared by many; that’s why more casino’s open every year.  If you want a game that pays out more often then you’re going to have to slide back to an old Sizzlin 7 program or Double Diamond program; they’re not as exciting because they don’t have high top awards or big multipliers but they have much better math.  I know that I kinda dogged the Sizzlers earlier in my reply but the Sizzlers hit the top award once every 4096 games!  Do your research, find out how many games it takes to hit the top award on average and ask about virtual reel stops.  Hit Frequency and Volatility are other factors that are part of slot math but in my experience the virtual stops and games per hit are larger pieces of the pie.  Try to obtain the par sheet for a program you are interested in and learn how to read it.

Good luck Jim, if you’re still thinking of leaving the game for the trash guy then please pm me your address and  let me know what day your trash pick-up is!!  

[BR549 Auto Sales]

You say th sizzling 7s hit top awards at @ every 4096 games, how often would you say a double diamind deluxe hits the top award? Also does it matter if it is a 2 credit or a 3 credit game?

Thanks,

David

[kforeman]

You say th sizzling 7s hit top awards at @ every 4096 games, how often would you say a double diamind deluxe hits the top award? Also does it matter if it is a 2 credit or a 3 credit game?

Thanks,

David

i've got 3 coin DD games on my floor that will hit the top award every 46656 games. not sure on the deluxe edition, i don't have any of them on my floor; and yeah the 2 or 3 coin would make a difference.  i could check it out for you if you posted some base chip numbers, gotta have those to check the par sheet.

edit: just to clarify.  i'm not making these figures up, i'm taking them off of the par sheets.  also please remember that these are averaged over the simulated 10 million games so don't bitch when your sizzler goes 5K games and you haven't hit the top award. 

[StatFreak]

...also please remember that these are averaged over the simulated 10 million games so don't bitch when your sizzler goes 5K games and you haven't hit the top award. 

A machine's top prize is the most volatile on the machine (because of how infrequently it is expected to hit). It's not uncommon for the top prize to hit within 1/3 of the expected average or to go 3 times the expected average before hitting.  So don't even bitch if your Sizzling 7 goes almost 15k games without hitting the top award; it's normal.

SF


Think of a pair of dice. Snake eyes is supposed to hit once every 36 throws. How often have you seen it hit back to back, or almost back to back? How often have you played craps and not seen a snake eyes for half an hour or more? And that's an outcome with a mere 1 in 36 chance of occurring.

[DannyG804]

From my home experience, the numbers never lie. I received a new s2000 a year and a half ago and the first $300-400 I put in got me all the way up to 22,000 credits on a 25 cent machine. That was the beginning... Slowly but surely they were gone and now I'm always feedin her! The other end of the spectrum - another s2000 must've eaten 8-10k credits w/o hitting anything big! That was then. NOW (meaning the last 5 days) I have it up to 13,000 credits. ALL IN ONE WEEK. that RNG is really something.

Finally, my player tracker says 770,000 coins in versus 742,000 coins out. My machine is set for 95% payout. Close enough If you ask me.

Danny

[StatFreak]

...ALL IN ONE WEEK. that RNG is really something.
...

Just to clarify, it's not the RNG that causes those fluctuations, it's the design of the game.

Again, take the dice analogy. If you roll two dice you have 36 possible outcomes. How you use them depends on the game you're playing and the rules you set up. The dice are random – they are the RNG in this example. They don't care what game you're playing or what rules you set. They just roll.

The volatility of slot games is designed into the math and can be controlled by changing the design of the game (the total number of stops, how many winning combinations there are for each prize, the number and size of the prizes, the number of reels, the number of lines, bonus rounds and their design, etc.)

It's those differences that keep players coming back for more. In addition, slot developers know that some players prefer low volatility games while others prefer high volatility, so they design games across the spectrum to appeal to a broad base of consumers.

[stayouttadabunker]

Wow Danny,
You   play a heckuva lotta games!!! 

[StatFreak]

Wow Danny,
You   play a heckuva lotta games!!! 

Well, that brings a question to mind. 22,000 credits suggests a multi-line, multiple coins per line game. Danny, what is your max bet (in coins)?

[DannyG804]

Between family, friends and myself - yes we do play A LOT!  The 770,000 coins in was from my older s2000... the one that racked up 22,000 credits is a Triple Double Moolah 3cm single line. I completely understand if nobody believes that, I almost didn't even though I was watching it happen!  I seriously thought the man who sold it to me rigged it to always win until reality put me in check when I lost it all and then some after months of playing (it took me about 2-3 months to build the 22,000 credits).

As far as the latest evidence of winning, I posted some pics of the wins on my Triple Cash Keys in the best home slot hits. I've hit 2700 coins 3 different times (two 3x with a red 7) and 3000 coins one time (all 3X - although not matching symbols). so yes that's right, 11k coins won in very short play time. All I'm wondering now is how the hell I'm gonna have the patience to deal with it when it starts doing nothing but losing  :294

So much for thinkin I was hot because last not I got killed at the casino. I don't have the keys to take the money out like I do at home. I couldn't win 100 coins   

Danny

[StatFreak]

Between family, friends and myself - yes we do play A LOT!  The 770,000 coins in was from my older s2000... the one that racked up 22,000 credits is a Triple Double Moolah 3cm single line.
...

Holy crap! That beats my stepper slot record for one game theme. I've played about 110,000 games of 3cm Five Times Pay, or about 300k coins in.

I had several good runs on the game, but it was an S+ with an older SP chip and I had the credit/hopper/JP limit set to 1200. Larger wins were lockups (without checking, definitely over 20,000 coins worth), but there were still two or three times that I won over 3000-4000 credits (not counting lockups) and ended up filling the coin tray and re-filling the hopper from all the payouts. I seem to recall that the credits stayed at 1200 for a month or more one time while I was trying to play off all of the extra coins. 

Eventually, the machine took it all back (of course), but those runs were lots of fun, and one of the reasons that Five Times Pay is among my favorite games. It has a good blend of volatility and hit frequency for my taste.