Oldest VP machines in LV casino operation

[elwood8]

Hi! I'm a a longtime fan of vintage gaming equipment, and have found these boards to be a wealth of information (alas, I don't currently own a machine of my own, but when I get one, I expect newlifegames to be an invaluable repair resource).

More to the point, I am a regular visitor to the Las Vegas area, and like to seek out and play on vintage gaming equipment that is still in real-money casino operation. So far, I have found the Skyline to be a great place for what I believe to be IGT PE+ (maybe PE?) games, and I have been advised to check out a bank of machines on the upper level of the California downtown (not sure what model they might be, I'm hoping that they might be Fortune machines, but am not sure).

It occurs to me that this might be the best place to pose the question "Where in the Las Vegas area might I find the oldest still-in-commercial-operation video poker systems?". Any insight would be most appreciated. Older systems capable of video blackjack would be nice also (did that begin with Fortune II?).

Thanks, and I apologize in advance if this query is out of place here.

 

[jay]

Downtown seems to be most likely.....
I know Mermaids has a bunch of coin operated S+'s

Some of the older Casinos outside of town might also have vintage platforms still in use. I know I saw some older video poker (PE+) when I was at a gas station in Satelite (on my way out to Joeys).

Video BlackJack - unless its mult-hand is not that good of a game to play - statistically speaking.
The good odds that you get playing BJ is based on playing through a full shoe.
I am sure Stat will jump in here and save me but I belive that a early shuffle 50% of the way through a 6 deck shoe can vary the results of long term play by as much as 6% in the houses favor.
Relatively speaking this now moves the house hold up from the 2-4% to 8-10% which is closer to what slots pay.
In the case of Video BJ - the deck is being electronically shuffled after each hand.

[dpalmi]

Hello!

One of my favorite places for older model slots is Slots-A-Fun right on the strip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slots-A-Fun_Casino.  I'm not much into Video slots myself, but they have lots of old S+ machines that you have to use actual coins in!  I would think the video slots are the same vintage.  They usually have $2 blackjack tables too and great $1 foot long hot dogs. 

Dan #2

[dpalmi]

An actual Slots-A-Fun 1/2lb Hot Dog...lol

[dpalmi]

Oh wait!  This pic is much better....lol!!  Who knew there were so many pics on the net of Vegas hot dogs....

Dan #2

[StatFreak]

Oh wait!  This pic is much better....lol!!  Who knew there were so many pics on the net of Vegas hot dogs....

Dan #2

There's a hot dog in that picture? Where?!  <- this tongue doesn't hold a candle to her's.

[StatFreak]

...
Older systems capable of video blackjack would be nice also (did that begin with Fortune II?).

...
Video BlackJack - unless its mult-hand is not that good of a game to play - statistically speaking.
The good odds that you get playing BJ is based on playing through a full shoe.
I am sure Stat will jump in here and save me but I believe that a early shuffle 50% of the way through a 6 deck shoe can vary the results of long term play by as much as 6% in the houses favor.
Relatively speaking this now moves the house hold up from the 2-4% to 8-10% which is closer to what slots pay.
In the case of Video BJ - the deck is being electronically shuffled after each hand.

OK, believe it or not, this is not correct. I admit that: first, I haven't looked into this before because I don't play straight basic strategy (without counting), second, that these data have been around for quite some time, and third, that these results surprised me too! There is so much in the world of blackjack that I can never keep up with it all. So for starters, K+ all around for posing a question that has led me to new knowledge!


Here's what I've found out. According to the Wizard of Odds (WOO), Norman at QFit (Casino Verite/CVCX/CVData etc. - my software of choice), and blackjackincolor, playing off of a deck that is reshuffled every hand actually lowers the house edge when compared to a normal hand game that uses a cut card placed at a specific location^** for basic strategy players. This effect is most pronounced in a single deck game. The overall effect when four or more decks are used is much smaller (not surprising). For a single deck game used in most one-on-one video blackjack machines, the reshuffle give the player an extra boost of 0.113% according to the WOO.

In normal table blackjack the odds are in the +0.03% to -0.5% range for perfect basic strategy play on a single deck paying 3-2 depending on house rule variations. As the number of decks approaches infinity, the house gains more of an edge, mostly due to the player getting fewer blackjacks. Using two decks adds about 0.35% for the house over one deck, using four decks adds about 0.52% over one deck, and six or eight decks adds about 0.56%-0.59% to the house advantage.

With video blackjack, most are single deck, and most of these games restrict your double down options to 10 & 11 only (-0.26% for Single Deck - SD) and restrict your split options to fewer than four splits (-0.05% SD). Many, if not most, pay only even money on blackjack (-2.32% SD). Most also hit soft 17 (-0.19% SD). However, even with all of the negatives, these data suggest that video blackjack should pay back from 97.32% to as much as 99.64% (in the case where blackjack pays 3 to 2 and good options) with perfect play. These figures are unconfirmed. If you find a machine that does pay out 3:2, it is very important to wager only even coin amounts (e.g., 2, 4, 6) because the machine can't pay you half a credit for the odd coin and will round down every time.

Keep in mind that most players don't play perfect basic strategy, whether at video blackjack or at the tables. So a more realistic figure would be in Jay's 5%-10% range. This is true of video poker as well, where the house can generally expect to keep at least 5% over the stated payback from the average player.


The Details:

^** There is a very important distinction to be made between dealing a fixed number of hands and placing a cut card at a specific location in the decks. If the dealer always deals exactly the same number of hands (rarely the case for double deck and shoe games in NV), then the odds for the player are not worse. The findings are, however, that if the dealer is dealing to a specific point in the deck, rather than a specific number of hands, it is much more likely that more hands will be dealt if the first hands contain a lot of large cards. What that means is that the extra hands dealt near the end of a run are much more likely to contain small cards. Put another way, a deck that starts slightly negative or normal and gets rich will have fewer hands dealt before the cut card is reached, and a deck that starts out slightly rich and gets poor will end up having more hands dealt to the cut card. This may seem counter-intuitive, but the simulations run by these experts support it.

With single deck, however, they often deal exactly two rounds with a full table, and the five dollar tables are usually packed. So this extra advantage may not apply in that case. However, a single deck game that pays only 6:5 on blackjack robs an extra 1.4% from the player! NEVER play a 6:5 game! If no one plays them the casinos will have undo the rule change.


I cannot explain why dealing large-valued hands that use few cards early in the deck(s) followed by small-valued hands that use lots of cards results in more hands being dealt than the reverse situation. I can only trust the truth of it since the many simulations run using different software over the years have borne this out.

I can, however, add some of my own understanding to help explain it why it matters. The fewer the number of cards left, the more effect a single card's removal has on the odds. So having, for example, one extra small card with half a deck left has a greater negative effect than having one extra small card with two decks left. That's why counters always adjust a running count to get a true count by dividing by the number of decks left. A double deck has 32 tens and 72 non-tens. If I remove one ten, I have a ratio of 31:72. A normalized half-deck (two suits) has 8 tens and 18 non-tens. If I remove one ten, I have a ratio of 7:18, which would be the same as 28:72. The single ten-card removed from the half-deck has the effect of removing four tens from a double deck. So having a deck that is rich in small cards at the beginning is not as detrimental to the player as having a deck that is rich in small cards at the end, and having a cut card at a specific point in the deck increases the number of hands dealt when the deck is rich in small cards at the end.

I find it ironic that penetration is precisely what card counters look for. For a counter, the deeper they go, the better the return. Of course, penetration depth isn't the same thing as an arbitrary stopping point. The counter will be betting the minimum when these bad end shoes arise. In fact, that's the best time to 'conveniently' have to go to the restroom!!  On the other hand, the counter will have the best of it in the betting circle when the end shoe is rich, and this is where most of the profits come from. The basic strategy player simply won't know one situation from the other and will either bet flat throughout or randomly increase his bets based on "streaks" or hunches. He also won't be able to intelligently change his play when those bad shoes occur by hitting more stiff hands and doubling down less often. Hey, sometimes you do hit 12 against a 5!

Here are some references:
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html
http://www.qfit.com/card-counting-cce.htm
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/blackjackeffects1.htm
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/blackjackeffects2.htm

[dpalmi]

Thanks for the interesting info StatFreak - Karama +!

Blackjack is definitely my game of choice (the actual card one - not a video slot) when I go to play at a casino, so I love hearing more info about the game.

Dan #2

[elwood8]

Thanks to all for the insightful advice so far. I have yet to venture into Mermaids (maybe I'm just frightened by the idea of a fried Twinkie), but I'll definitely wander in there on my next trip and see what they've got running. I've been to Slots-A-Fun before, but it was before I really got interested in the machines, so I'll have to return to check them out again (and to play their unusual-or-unique aces+8s VP offering). And maybe, if I'm feeling brave, a giant hot dog.

Though not a video machine, I think that the oldest machines I have yet to have the opportunity to play are a pair of $1 coin-dropping slots in the El Cortez, which are positioned at the ends of a bank of machines near the parking garage elevators. I'm no expert, but I think that they predate stepper technology, and are actual non-computerized electromechanical slots.

If anyone is interested, I'll photograph my findings from my next trip and post a gallery of old-still-in-commercial-use machines here.

Thanks for all the input! It has all been most informative and entertaining. I look forward to any more that may be yet to come...

[StatFreak]

Thanks to all for the insightful advice so far. I have yet to venture into Mermaids (maybe I'm just frightened by the idea of a fried Twinkie)
...to Slots-A-Fun...to check them out again ...And maybe, if I'm feeling brave, a giant hot dog.
...

I love food, but even I wouldn't touch a fried Twinkie.    
On the other hand, you've got to try their famous giant hot dog, even if you share it with someone you love. 

...
I've been to Slots-A-Fun before, but it was before I really got interested in the machines, so I'll have to return to check them out again (and to play their unusual-or-unique aces+8s VP offering).
...
Though not a video machine, I think that the oldest machines I have yet to have the opportunity to play are a pair of $1 coin-dropping slots in the El Cortez, which are positioned at the ends of a bank of machines near the parking garage elevators. I'm no expert, but I think that they predate stepper technology, and are actual non-computerized electromechanical slots.

If anyone is interested, I'll photograph my findings from my next trip and post a gallery of old-still-in-commercial-use machines here.

Thanks for all the input! It has all been most informative and entertaining. I look forward to any more that may be yet to come...

Please do take pictures of any old and unusual machines you find and share them here. There are lots of us who would like to see the them.   
And if you can get some screen shots of that aces+8s VP in action, even better!

[jay]

See, I knew stat would come to my rescue. Even if he totally debunked the information.
The WOO site is really a great place to spend some time.
K+

The deep fried twinkie reminds me of the old Jolt Cola add. All the sugar and twice the caffine of the regular soft drink.
In this case its all the sugar and twice the transfats of a regular twinkie.   

[elwood8]

I must agree that the Wizard of Odds (wizardofodds.com) site is a gem. I also have found the vpgenius.com site to be extremely useful for anyone who either plays video poker for money, or has an interest in what exactly it is that various paytables do (or fail to do) to one's bankroll (the simulator option there provide an eye-opening insight into what can happen over the course to 10,000 or so plays).

StatFreak: Does Mermaids have a hot-dog offering? Or were you referring to Slots-a-Fun?

I shall certainly provide a photographic post of my findings when I return to LV for my next old-machine-seeking foray. For anyone who may be in the area or visiting in the future who takes an interest in vintage equipment, I highly recommend a visit to Skyline (on Boulder Highway). It is a veritable museum of sorts, one where you pay not for admission, but rather at the exhibits themselves (though I believe the oldest of their machines to be PE-class, there are a LOT of them, and all with good paytables).



Again, thanks for all the great input on my oddball-topic!

(4OAK win on PE+ 9/6 JoB at Skyline... The only vintage VP photo I could find on short notice)

[StatFreak]

...
StatFreak: Does Mermaids have a hot-dog offering? Or were you referring to Slots-a-Fun?
...

Slots-A-Fun.

I look forward to seeing your pictures. Another K+ for starting the thread.

[uniman]

I shall certainly provide a photographic post of my findings when I return to LV for my next old-machine-seeking foray. For anyone who may be in the area or visiting in the future who takes an interest in vintage equipment, I highly recommend a visit to Skyline (on Boulder Highway). It is a veritable museum of sorts, one where you pay not for admission, but rather at the exhibits themselves (though I believe the oldest of their machines to be PE-class, there are a LOT of them, and all with good paytables).

I wish you would have posted this about a week ago. Just got back from Vegas. Now I have to go back and check out Skyline.    I like vintage slots.
Slots A Fun has coin-in S+'s, but I don't remember vintage video poker?
The Cannery, on Boulder hwy,  has all new machines. Aristocrat has a video slot with a wrap around (bubble like) belly glass (plastic). And the Gamekings have autoplay for Keno. First time I saw that.

The El Cortez still has three Universal slots and a lot of video poker. They may some vintage vp there.

Jay, when you said Satilite, did you mean SearchLight?

If you see any Universal slots besides at The El Cortez and Circus Circus, let me know!

[knagl]

Elwood-

Glad to see you made it over here from LVA.   

That picture from the skyline is a PE+ bartop drop-in model.  No different than the PE+ uprights still on the floors in a few casinos in downtown Vegas (including the Treasure Chest Bonus and Pay The Aces machines at Main Street Station, the Treasure Chest Bonus and sequential diamond royal bonus games at the Cal, the Treasure Chest (and assorted other poker themes) games at Fremont, and the assorted theme and multi-game machines at El Cortez).  The machines on the top floor of the Cal (the ones that don't hold credits) are older and are the oldest ones I've seen still in operation in Vegas.

I was feeling adventurous last trip and stopped in Slots-A-Fun.  I didn't see a lot of older machines left there -- even the bartops had been upgraded to Game Kings.  They did still have a couple of "Flip-It" games in operation.  Not video poker, but still vintage gaming equipment.

The Aces and 8s game, unless I missed it at Slots-A-Fun, was only over next door at the even creepier Circus Circus.  It's on the Game King or iGame platform (not sure which), and the only unique thing about it is the paytable (which isn't awful, but requires some strategy changes to play properly).

...and finally, my hot dog contribution to the thread...

Even bigger than the great 1/2 lb. Slots-A-Fun dog was the 3/4 lb. Westward Ho "Mega Dog"...

[dpalmi]

Your pictured made me laugh and kind of turned me on at the same time....

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

 

Dan #2

[Brianzz]

I could do so much with photoshop and that picture 

[knagl]

I don't think there's much Photoshop required to make that picture look like something it isn't!   

Suffice it to say, there was a lot of alcohol consumed before that photo was taken.

(...and, in the interest of full disclosure, after the photo was taken the Mega Dog was cut in half and eaten by me and a friend -- I could barely finish the half of it!)

[jay]

I did mean searchlight.......

[Morpheus72]

First Post here, folks. It seems appropriate to put it here since it is an interest in vintage games that brought me here.

The oldest machines I have seen are, as others have said, the coin-droppers on the second floor of the California  in Las Vegas. In another topic on this site, someone mentioned that some of the machines had been removed recently, but I do know that as of November, 09 some of these machines remain. Perhaps just the oldest of those machines were removed. 

I believe the next-oldest VP I've seen are in one bank at Slots-A-Fun -- the gaming museum where you can play with all the exhibits! These are Sigma games from, IIRC, 1983. There is also a very old Blackjack machine there that says "Twenty-One" on the glass, probably from the same timeframe as well. Lots of good memories playing that machine when I visited Las Vegas with a $40 a day gambling budget. I have seen the reel slots mentioned at the ElCo, but I've never looked closely at them.

Related things -- my favorite VP machine is the Treasure Chest Bonus, and I hope it's a long time before they go away. There was a mention of Jackpot Poker, with a "similar" bonus feature, and I actually saw 3 of them at the casino in Sault Ste. Marie, Mich. in 2008, but they are gone now. I have a long list of machines I miss, with Press Your Luck being missed most of all. Ripley's Believe It or Not, $25K Pyramid, and Hollywood Squares were also fabulous games. As for Mermaids, that casino houses the last remaining (that I know of) Monopoly Once Around Deluxe 9-liners, so we play there some on each trip.

Thanks for the great site!!

Dave

[uniman]

Welcome to NLG Dave. Always nice to meet someone who likes the older machines too!

Kewadin Sault Ste. Marie, in Michigan's UP has some nice older games mixed with newer ones. I also enjoyed Bay Mills in Brimley.

In Laughlin NV, the Pioneer has older S+ machines.