Bally 809 has run away hopper on jackpot hits

[Amachanic]

I'm working on a Bally 809 for a friend.. The problem is that the machines hopper will run till it times out on any jackpot hit? Once you reset the timer your able to play again till the next jackpot is hit, then it runs till it times out again? The only problem I was able to find was the zero switch on the hopper was not closing once the spiral cam advanced. I fixed that problem but it was not the problem.. All the other blade switches and relays seem to be operating correctly, but I didn't use a meter on them, just a quick glance.. I fixed any wire insulators that had moved and could not find any broken or grounded wires? What am I missing?

Thanks, Gary

[OldReno]

The 200+ coin jackpot payout uses the 100 coin pay segment on the hopper, and the X2 multiplier in the top unit.  You should be able to hear and see the X2 working during pays.  If not, then check your jackpot lockup relay(s) in the top unit. They are what force the X2 to come into play regardless of how many coins you have played.  If the X2 wheel is turning, then one of the fingers on its board probably aren't contacting. If you don't have a jumper cable, remove the 4 screws holding the light panel onto the top unit, then you can drop it down and watch.
Is your hopper payboard step up coil working during pays? (Is the payboard stepping at all?)
What fun.
Keep us posted.

[Amachanic]

Thanks OldReno.. I had a heck of a time pulling the top unit out. I saw the odds wheels but didn't check there operation. I looked over the relay stack behind them and they seemed fine. I do have a set of extention cables just need to remember where I stored them.    Thank for the help, I'll keep you posted.

Gary

[OldReno]

The X2 is pretty noisy.  Look for a wire hanging up on the wheel teeth.  Often happens, and the result is it'll either runaway, or only pay 100 IIRC.  Use a small screwdriver to push the plunger & watch that it's turning the wheel properly.

[Amachanic]

Ok.. I was able to get back and work on my friends Bally 809 with the run away hopper. I brought my extention cable and we put the top box next to machine.. When we coined it up the top relay on the rear stack energized and the stepper moved, second and third coin cycled the lower relay in the stack and the coin stepper advanced.. The only time I saw the second wheel from the left turn was when a jackpot was hit.. We found two cut wires, they were to the second and third coils for the reels.. we still have the run away hopper on every jackpot even after fixing the two cut wires... When any jackpot is hit the hopper will still run till the machine times out... We did notice if you unplugged the machine when the hopper is in run away mode, then plugged it back it the hopper would stop running, same thing if you pulled the hopper out, then put it back in? I'm not sure where to look next? I here the hoppers spiral cam snap back to zero once the machine is coined up for the next play and the zero cam is good.. it acts like the jackpot relay does not want to shut off once the spiral cam advances past the coins won... I have attached pics of the top box unit..

Thanks Gary

[OldReno]

Out the door for a bit, so I have to make this quick.  Will get back to you later.
Does the machine pay correctly for two coins played on the other pays, or does it run away on 2 coins in?

[Amachanic]

It has been a run away on every jackpot so far from 1 cherry to 3 bells.. They all  end up the same with a run away hopper.

[OldReno]

Sounds like it's running away on every pay.
Pull your hopper and physically push down on the payboard step up coil plunger behind the payboard.  See if your payboard wiper fingers advance one step each time you push the plunger.
If it is physically stepping, then look for a loose wire, maybe to the step up coil itself.
Or the coil could be burned out, or a loose/broken winding in it.
To check the coil, read the post on using jumper wires on your EM, or ohm it out with your VOM.
Once you are sure it is physically stepping, then we'll figure out the electrical problems. 
Hopefully....

[Amachanic]

Reno... I looked over the hopper the first time I went over to work on this machine. Thats when I found the zero switch out of adjustment.. This hopper does step up one click for every coin coming out. I used my OHM meter on the wiper board and checked to see if it dropped off at two, five, 10 and 14 coins paid.  My OHM meter showed that after each of these jackpot were paid that circuit dropped off.. The spiral cam and wiper moves smooth and returns to zero quickly when released.. I didn't look to see how worn the the contact were on the back of the spiral cam to wiper board, or look over every solder joint on the wiper board. I looked over the relays and motor wires to make sure the insulators were covering the solder point, but didn't see anything wrong. This hopper is different any I have run accross before. I'm use to the ones that have a spring loaded lever coming off the hoppers payout roller going down and manually advancing the payout spiral cam. This one has a triple stacked relay that opens and closes when a coin is paid out. The relay must energize the solenoid that advances the spiral cam.. Is it possible that the contacts are worn flat on the wiper on the back of the spiral cam and causing this problem?

Gary

[OldReno]

Ok, it sounds like you've gone through it pretty thoroughly.
You have an electrically stepped hopper.  Those 3 (pulse) switches basically go up to the top unit where the odds disc determines IF and what X unit to use.  And then the pulse travels back down to the hopper step up coil which advances the wiper fingers.  If that signal does not get back down to the hopper, then it cannot step up, and will run away.
We need to determine if the hopper runs away when you play 1 coin, 2 coins, 3 coins, 4 coins, or 5 coins, or if it runs away no matter how many coins you play.  If it only runs away when you play 2 coins, that's easy, it's the X2.  etc.
But, if it runs away on all pays no matter how many coins in you play, then we'll keep at it.
You might want to check your top unit odds disc, to make sure all the fingers on there are making good snappy contact, and also look for a little wiper finger on the inside contact part of the odds wiper 'spider-guy' (for lack of a better word) that fits onto the odds disc shaft.
I'm shooting in the dark right now, and don't have an 809 schematic yet.
So, with top unit out and cable on it, set up a pay with 2 coins in, 3 coins, 4, and 5, and verify that the X2, X3,X4, and X5 are turning each time a coin goes out of the hopper.
It sounds like your technique is good, and you do use a meter, so I'm impressed.  You might ohm out your payboard step up coil itself, because if all the pulses are ok from the top unit, if that coil is open or burnt, it won't step up nohow, notime, noway.  Or you could jumper it to check easily.  Clip one lead onto the orange wire of your coil, and the other end to the orange on the transformer (or door coin lockout coil), and the other jumper has one end on the yellow wire (transformer or coinswitch on the door), and then tap the end of it quickly across the other terminal of your step up coil.  Each tap you make should step payboard once. You can also check your hopper reset coil at the same time, since you have the hopper out and open.
The problem could be your payboard, but let's not go there quite yet. Although you could do an ohms check with the pay fingers in reset position by putting one lead of your VOM on any low pay, and then measure to a 93 wire (grey with yellow trace) that you will see soldered onto a terminal on the bottom of the payboard.  It should be marked F for feed.  If you're good there, we'll assume payboard is ok.
So anyway, I'll check back in the AM to see how you've gotten along.

[OldReno]

Just a thought before I'm off to bed.
We have to clear up our terminology.
A jackpot hit, is any pay when the machine locks up and automatically pays 200 coins. The rest is cash paid by attendant, and the machine will not play until the jackpot is released by the JP reset key.
All other pays are not jackpots, but just pays.
The only jackpots on your 809 should be triple bars with 3, 4, or 5 coins played, and double bars with (4?), or 5 coins played.  (I'm probably wrong, need to look at your award glass to tell you for sure...) These are handled by jackpot lockup relay #1, and JPLU relay #2.
All other pays are just straight pays, not jackpots.
I got myself confused with our wordage partway through our thread.
OK, g'nite.