Says Bally 809 but reels confuse me + a problem.

[shortrackskater]

I have, according to the tag a Bally 809-5ZB. I was working on this last year but got side tracked with my s plus machine. I'm now an back to this one. I finally opened up my Bally book (by Mead) and am now confused. The 809 in there shows a 5 coin multiplier with single, double, triple bars. I have only single bars and TONS of melons!. I have no idea if maybe this is a different reel set or not. It all matches the glass so I'm thinking this WAS once working as it should.
I posted a question on payouts many months ago and got the areas to check...which I did and all contacts were clean and making contact.
Here is what it's doing now. This is just a random table of payout amounts. There seems to be no consistency.  
3 coins in - 3 melons - paid $3.20  Should be $3.00
3 coins in - 1 cherry       - paid 6        Should be 6
2 coins in - 3 melons - paid $1.85  Should be $2.00
2 coins in - 1 cherry  - paid 4        Should be 4

Should I just take the reel assembly apart completely and clean all the contacts/wipers and boards?
And, should I do the same with the hopper?
I've done a LOT of spot contact cleaning over large areas but the problems remain.

[OldReno]

I'm guessing a hopper problem.
With the melons pay online, with 2 coins in, pull slightly on your hopper carriage assembly and see if it finishes paying.
If it does, then adjust your outboard wipers, they are probably out of adjustment.
If that's not it, then check your other pays also to see if it's just a melon problem or not.
You may have some dirty spots on your X-units, which could cause an over pay, but probably not a short pay.
Check all your pays and let us know which ones are bad, that might help diagnosing the problem.
Sounds cool....
Also, not having enough tension on your spiral cam spring can often cause the hopper to double step, and give 2 coins out while only counting one.  However, you said cherries pay fine, so that's probably not it.  Sorry.
I'm reasonably sure this is not a reel mech problem.

Oh, where do your hopper wiper fingers end up at after the melon pay is over?

[shortrackskater]

Thanks OldReno
I did a quick check when I was home today and set up the three melon win, with 2 coins in. This time, I got $1.95! I did go in and wiggle the hopper but nothing else happened. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the payouts. I'll check the finger location on the hopper when I get back home tonight.
Do you know why there's so many melons on this machine? It hits three melons constantly. I think you've seen this machine but here it is again, showing a previous very common win condition.

[OldReno]

Wiggle (pull) the hopper carriage, not the hopper.
Post a reading of your reel strips, and the pay structure, and we can figure out the percentage, and the hit frequency.
Oh, I see it's an Eldorado machine.  Surprised it hits so often....  They used to just pull them off the floor when they paid out too much.
Maybe that's one of them...Ha.
I notice by looking at your payglass in zoom that it's only a 20 coin pay.  That leads me to believe you may have payboard adjustment issues, but I don't know for sure.  We'll keep at it, eh?
It's behaving oddly, but that's the fun in it all.

[shortrackskater]

Hi
Sorry if I sound like a doofus...I'm not up on EM terminology.  
I set up the two coin, three melon pay and got $1.80. The first picture are the hopper fingers. I hope I am taking the picture of what you want to see.
I tried pulling on the hopper carriage. Is that the bowl part? Well I wiggled it and nothing happened.
Next, I just did some random win set ups and got this:
1 Coin - 3 "$2.50" -got $2.50 - should be $2.50
2 Coin - 2  Cherry - got 10     - should be 10
4 Coin - 1  Cherry - got 5       -should be 8
2 Coin - 3 Melon   - got $1.80 -should be $2.00
4 Coin - 1 Cherry  - got 8       - should be 8
1 Coin - 3 Melon   - got $1.05 - should be $1.00
1 Coin - 3 Melon   - got $0.90 - should be $1.00
5 Coin - 2 Cherry  - got 21      - should be 25

Finally...I wasn't sure what you meant by the reading of the reel strips. I assume you mean a list of symbols on each reel. Here they are!
All numbers are starting from 7 and listed as I looked down. Reel #1 is reel on left.
Reel #1  Reel #2  Reel #3
7            7           7
Mel         Mel        Mel
2.50        2.50       Bar
Mel         Chry       Mel
Bar          2.50      Org
Mel          Bar       Mel
Bar          2.50      Plum
Mel          Plum     Org
2.50         2.50      Bell
Mel          Mel       Mel
Bar          2.50      Org
Bell          Mel       Mel
Mel          2.50      Org
Chry         Bar       Mel
Mel          Org       Org
Org          2.50      2.50
Mel          Plum     Org
Plum        2.50      Plum
Mel          Bell       Mel
Bell          2.50      Org

[OldReno]

Good picture, excellent, thanks.
Looking at your payfingers, it appears they have stepped waaay beyond the 20 coins segment.  After a 20 pay, they should be JUST BARELY off the 20.
You may not have enough tension on the torsion spring on the back of your white 100 tooth paygear that the wiper fingers are mounted on.  There are different adjusting holes on the 100 tooth gear assembly, so you can carefully unwind the spring, and reposition it into another hole.  I generally make it so that there are about 2 and 1/2 turns on that spring.  If there are too few turns (not enough tension), then the machine can double step which will give you those kinds of pay problems.
Again, good photo, that really helps.
The hopper carriage is that big piece that your zero switch is mounted on.
Good job so far!!!
I'll try to get to your percentages soon.
Also, when you look at your 100 tooth gear, inspect all of the teeth to see that none are missing or worn down....
If you can, trace the wire from the 20 coin paytab, and see if it goes to any switches mounted by or on the carriage.  Sometimes machines will have an 'open at 20' switch built in, which should, as it suggests, open at 20 coins.
(I love a good mystery!)

[shortrackskater]

I'm a little confused. I see waaaaaaaaay inside the hopper, a spring wound around a plastic core. Is this the spring? The inside end of the spring is in one of four holes. If this is the spring, I'm not sure what you mean. The spring seems kind of loose though. I can barely reach it with my skinny long metal hook thingy but don't know if I can actually take that spring out of the hole. And if I can, do I turn the core and in which direction? I'm making myself more confused now.

[OldReno]

The long end of the spring hooks onto a post.  Carefully remove it (spring end, not post LOL)and slowly let the spring unwind, counting how many turns it makes.  It should unwind 2 and 1/2 times.  If not, then add another turn when putting it back on.  Will be back later to help, gotta run right now....

[shortrackskater]

I removed that end of the spring and nothing happens. I'm not sure how to add a turn. I can turn the gear but it just spins back.

[ricker]

OK OldReno,

My guess is 84.8 % payback.  And of all hits, melens hit nearly 30% of the time.

Richard

[OldReno]

@shorttrack, just turn/wind the long end of the spring counterclockwise one full revolution and put the end back on the post.  With your payboard assembly down, it's like setting/changing the time on a clock. An analog clock, not digital LOL. That may add enough tension so that it stops double stepping.  Let us know if that improves the pays or not.
@ricker, good job!  Did you add in the kicker of $60 for 5 coins played on the jackpot?

[OldReno]

@shorttrackskater, you did remove the screw holding the payboard and assembly in place, and lower it down so you could get at it??? Probably a silly question on my part...but just checking.
2 screws hold it onto the hopper.  Remove the top one, and it folds down so you can access it.

[shortrackskater]

Thanks for all the help so far!!!
No I didn't remove anything yet. I just flipped the hopper on one side and could access the spring from an opening. I wasn't sure if there was any trick to do this without removing anything. But what you said sounds fairly easy so I'll get to it this afternoon.
Another quick question:
Do you think this IS an 809 as the tag says on the side? Were machines commonly swapped out with different innards to suit the casino? I'm just curious since the payout glass and reels all match up. And I've still never seen this particular reel (with all those melons!) set anywhere in the Bally book.
Tons of errands to do but I'll be back in the afternoon.
Thank you again!

[ricker]

@ricker, good job!  Did you add in the kicker of $60 for 5 coins played on the jackpot?
[/quote

Yes I did.  Percentage based on max coins played.

[OldReno]

Some casinos would have their own custom reel strips, discs and glass made up.  That way you could easily change percentages, without having to paste over new reel symbols, and cut out the discs. One of the quickest % changes we made, was to remove a cherry and add a 7.

[shortrackskater]

Much easier with that unit out! Okay I wound the spring just one turn. Now it overpays on the 2 coin three melon by ten cents. So I backed the spring two turns the other way (looser) and now the two coin three melon pays 95 cents!

UPDATE: I took the unit out and unwound the spring. Repositioned it into another hole and wound 2 1/2 times. Now the 2 coin 3 melon pay is $1.90
I'm going to repeat this again and see what happens. Maybe I wasn't quite 2 1/2 turns.

UPDATE: I repositioned the spring into another hole and 2 1/2 turns (which "met" the post) and got the $1.90 for 2 coin 3 melon. Then I just played for a minute. Got 4 for 2 coin 1 cherry, got 5 for 2 coin 1 cherry and then got 4 for 2 coin 1 cherry.
I'm confused.
Also FYI - I do have a bunch of new Bally springs including this one. I can try replacing it but the existing spring looks okay to me.

UPDATE: Messed around with the spring again. Now it's paying either $1.95 or $2.00 for 2 coin 3 melon. And 2 coin 1 cherry pays 3 or 4.
Just for fun, I set up a 5 coin 1 cherry win and got the proper 10 but the 5 coin 2 cherry awarded me 21 instead of 25!

Where's everybody?   OldReno???



Oh wait...I know where you and ricker are!
 

[shortrackskater]

I'm still stuck! Guess I'll throw the towel back over the machine and work on the jeep. 

[OldReno]

Hey, sorry, been out of town, just got back.  Will try to post you later tonight....

[shortrackskater]

THANKS!! I will remove the towel.  

[OldReno]

Glad the towel is gone.
OK, we can assume your spring is ok, or pretty near at normal, so that's not the problem.
The first thing you should do anytime you have a mis-pay, is to pull out the hopper and look at where the wiper fingers ended up.
You can put a little mark on the board with a sharpie if you like.
Try a pay several times, and if the fingers always end up in the correct position, then you probably don't need to adjust your payboard.
In that case, then you're getting some kind of double step or mis-step
If the fingers are at different spots, then you may need to loosen the 2 bolts that hold the payboard secure, and slightly rotate it one way or the other.
If you feel up to it, you can take apart the payboard assembly and check it visually.  To do that, manually step the payboard one step (to lock in the spiral cam and keep it from unwinding).  Then with a small screwdriver, remove the 3 little E clips that hold the carriage onto the posts on the spiral cam.  Keep your finger on the e-clip.  We call them Jesus clips, because if you don't have your finger on there, when you pop it off with your screwdriver you go, "Jesus, where did it go?"
After carriage is removed, then put your thumb firmly pressing the front of the spiral cam and reach with your fingers over the top of the unit and hold the 100 tooth gear firmly squeezed against the spiral.  Then you can remove the screw holding the spiral to the 100 tooth gear, and then pull off the spiral cam.  You can then view your board, and also the condition of the spiral cam payfingers.  Clean the fingers and board all up with a cloth and some weak solvent, and then look at the fingers to see that they are all in the same plane.  If any of them appear to be lifted, or not contacting well, then put a little slight bend in them to give them more pressure when they contact the board.  Take pics if you can of the whole assembly.  When you put it back together, do it in reverse order, and make SURE when you press the spiral cam back on to the gear that you hold the gear firmly in place.  If you don't, the spiral will push the gear out of place and mess things up.
While disassembled, pay attention to the condition of your pay segments, to see that they are not worn or dirty.
You can rub a little light oil on the payboard, and then rub it off with a clean cloth.
Take a pic of assembly before you start, so you can be certain how it goes back together.  If not, we'll walk you through it....
I still think you're getting a double step from a mechanical problem originating with the step up assembly, which is activated by your coin out roller.
Is your payboard mechanically stepped with a linkage, or is it electrically stepped with a solenoid?

[OldReno]

If you don't feel like disassembling your payboard right now, we can work on your step up problem by looking at your step up assembly.
But first, we need to know if it is a mechanical step or electric with a solenoid.
And, you should take a good careful look at your 100 tooth gear behind the payboard, to see if there are any teeth missing on it or worn down.  If so, you can turn it 180 degrees for your low pays, and thus have a fresh set of teeth, if you also move the spiral cam out 180 degrees.

[shortrackskater]

I decided to start with the easier things!
For some weird reason, the one coin three melon is working each time. But this happened before.
So I set up a four coin, one cherry payout. I'd get 9 one time, then 8, then 9. The "fingers" ( I'm assuming those are at the top and bottom right side of the payout board?) were in the same spot.
I'm not sure why I did this (maybe because I love "clean") but I took a swap with some mild cleaning solution and wiped that spiral cam (that is the thing in the middle that looks like a round maze?) as much as possible. I then set up the four coin, one cherry payout and got the correct amount three times.
But I had to go eat dinner....
So now I'm returning to the garage to try more payout set ups.
I'll be back.
Thank you, again.

UPDATE: No it's still paying off weird. I set up one coin, three plums and one coin two plums and a bar numerous times. I'd get 14, then 14, then 13. Then I made it two coin and got the same results which was one coin short intermittently. But when I went to three coins, I'd get one coin OVER.
I did look at the teeth and they all look good. I can take a picture if you need but they look "sharp" to me.
Should I begin what you've told me? I may need some terminology explanation on some stuff but I'll look at my Bally book first.

[OldReno]

The fingers at the top and bottom of the right side of your board are the outboard wipers, and are only used for the higher payouts, 50 coins, 100 and 200.  Your concern is the inboard wipers, which are the ones that are attached to your spiral cam.
Tilt the hopper on its side, and look at your payboard and how the inboard wipers relate to it.  You will see the pay segments on the board, and as you step up your payboard you can see when the fingers step off of each pay segment.  They are all labelled at the bottom of the payboard.
As you physically step the hopper, you will see the payfingers move past these pay segments.  Depending on what you hit, that determines which of those pay segments is hot.  A hot segment allows the hopper to run, and when the fingers fall off a hot segment, then the hopper loses power and stops spinning.  Pay is over then. That's basically how it works, but OpBell could certainly explain it better.
If, on a 20 coin pay, the payfingers are real close to stepping off the tab at 19 coins, then sometimes it will stop at 19, and sometimes it will make enough contact to get the 20th coin out.  Hit and miss. after 19 coins out, the payfingers should be still well on the 20 tab.  If it looks precarious, you may have to loosen the 2 bolts that hold the payboard onto its bracket, and slightly move it either clockwise or counter clockwise to get it to line up with the payfingers.
By the way, the bottom payfinger is for 2 coins, the next for 5 coins, the 3rd up for 10 coins, then 14 coins, then 18 coins then 20 coins. As you will see when you look at the board and fingers.... Anything above 20 coins is handled by the outboard wipers.
I hope that's not too confusing.  But we'll stay on it, regardless.
So, it is vital that you note where the inboard (spiral) payfingers end up after each pay.
I still need to know if it is a mechanical or electrically stepped hopper.
Hang in there....
When you have time, read some of the old threads I've started in the Electromechanical section, and they might help explain the machine better for you.  Good job and good persistence, by the way....

[shortrackskater]

One thing is consistent...the four coin, two cherry always pays out 21 or 22 instead of 20.
Here's my hopper, from the top.

[OldReno]

OK, good, you have an electrical step.  First, take off that goofy shield on the lower right corner of your photo and throw that away.  That's an anti cheat device, it's not needed (or wanted) and it keeps you from being able to manually step the hopper.
Once that's gone, then you should see the top part of your hopper step up solenoid plunger, just underneath the coin out switches there on top.
You can manually push down on that plunger, and then watch what your payboard fingers do.
If you remove the top screw holding your payboard to the hopper, then you can pull it down and take another photo of it.  There is a reset pawl on there that will let you easily reset the hopper.  It's easier to use than reaching waaaay back in and pushing the reset solenoid plunger, which is what many people do.  I will show you where it is after you post photo.
You're making good progress, so keep at it.