Bally 873 - won't pay add'l diagonal line 4/5 pays on cherry(s)

[frenchmarky]

I've overhauled this machine and has been working fine until this last glitch.  Bally 5-line pay 873.  Here is what's happening when the glitch occurs when fully coined (which I always do), 5 quarters:

1.  Single cherry on line 1 or 3 pays only 2 coins.  Should pay another 2 coins for line 4 or 5.
2.  Double cherries on line 1 or 3 across pays only 5 coins.  No pay for the 2 coins for single cherry being on line 4 or 5.
2.  Double cherries on line 4 or 5 DOES pay correctly, example, 2 coins for line 1 cherry and 5 coins for line 4 double cherries.

So on double cherries I get jipped if it's lateral, but pays correctly if it's diagonal.  The jip is always by two coins I should have gotten for line 4 or 5.  Weird.
At first this was intermittent, to where I could jiggle the handle after the pay and sometimes it would spit out the remaining two coins.  Now it is permanent.

Any pointers on exactly where this cherry(s) on lines 1+4 or lines 3+5 stuff is handled, any particular relay etc.?  Have tried the usual checking of relay switches but I must have missed something.  I have a copy of the schematics but have turned the house upside down and still cannot find them. 
So, if anybody can point me to a copy of the schems I'd appreciate it, or can send them to me at mf101723  (at)  msn dot com.   Thanks!!

[OldReno]

Are your reel wipers aligned correctly, and hit fully on the buttons?
If you wiggle the reels does it pay ok?
If you pull on the hopper outboard wiper carriage assembly, does it pay then?
Is your hopper board clean, and adjusted right?

[frenchmarky]

<<Are your reel wipers aligned correctly, and hit fully on the buttons?
If you wiggle the reels does it pay ok?>>

Pretty certain it isn't the reels general position, everything lining up right that I can see i.e. the buttons and wipers, and all other pays are always perfect.  Wiggling the reels either direction doesn't trigger it either, I've had previous pay problems before where that isolated it but not this time.

<<If you pull on the hopper outboard wiper carriage assembly, does it pay then?  Is your hopper board clean, and adjusted right?>>

Nope that hasn't triggered it either, poked, prodded, cleaned, checked ad infinitum on the counter unit, including right after it paid a short pay.

Since it is an issue that is related to how many lines are coined up (i.e. line 4 or 5 jipping me), I was leaning towards the 'coins in' unit or whatever it's called but couldn't see anything wrong on it either.  My guess was sort of that it probably wasn't the coin hopper counter/wiper unit, but more likely either something to do with # of coins in OR the reel # 1 wipers perhaps. 
I'll pull out the reel unit for starters one more time and make sure on the wiper contacts when it is sitting in one of these cherry positions.  Then again if it was that, I'd more expect a problem with maybe only ONE cherry position like line 1, not both line 1 and 3.  Geez I just with I could have a checklist that said "OK with these symptoms, these things CAN'T be the problem"  or "could be the problem".  Arghhh!
Again, back to checking the reel #1 and will report back anything, and go from there I guess.  Thanks

[frenchmarky]

Well I did some tweaking to the tension on the first reel's wipers and cleaned them again (a couple looked a little light on pressure) and cleaned all the switches on those three 'bar' relays on the side of the reel mech with my fine file, and a few add'l adjustments to a few switches there.  All cherry pays now working correctly.  Still haven't found my schematics but apparently one of these fixed it.  Do the 'bar' relays have anything at all to do with the cherry pay circuits?  Aw who cares, it's fixed!  Yay!

[frenchmarky]

Crap, looks like something else fooled me into thinking the tweaks fixed it.  Turns out the larger of the two connectors at the back of the reel mechanism is cracked in two.  If a short cherry pay comes out, I can get the finishing two coins to pay by shoving the mechanism around a bit.  Can definitely see at least one female contact that is opened up directly by the crack.  It is all still in one piece as far as still connecting fully to the male plug, but it is definitely now broken completely in two by a big diagonal, jagged fissure and you can wiggle each half around.

Anybody know of a source for one of these large female connectors?  I could try superglue I guess but it's already saturated with contact cleaner and I'd have serious doubts about that being a permanent repair.  Unless I really blasted it with degreaser good, maybe glue or epoxy could hold it together again, not sure about long term though.

Thanks!

[RiseLikeRa]

Greetings:

I have been very interested in your post.  I have a 873 in my collection and it is the most played game in the house.  I am going to my local mechanic later this week to look at a machine he wants to offer me.  He has boxes of EM parts.  Is there anyway that you can post a picture or 2 or 3 that will make me understand what is broken and exactly where it is located?  I got lost somewhere in your description.  I am sure he will just give me the part as he has done many times in the past.  I will of course give it to you.

Ra

[frenchmarky]

See attached pic of the plug.  Since it's a femaie, maybe technically it's called a socket.  Anyway it's the cabinet socket that the right-side plug plugs into when you slide the reel unit in.  Correction, pic is of the male but the female looks the same except of course female pins.  Thanks!

[RiseLikeRa]

So let me understand.  Its the CABINET Right side FEMALE match for what you send a pic of that is broken.  Correct?  Not the male plug attached to the reel mech.

Ra

[frenchmarky]

Correct, 24-pin female socket at right rear of cabinet, behind reel mechanism.

[RiseLikeRa]

I spoke to my mechanic and he DOES have your part.  PM me and I will give you his contact information.  He said as long as you have a good soldering gun and a steady hand you should be back up and running in no time.

Ra

[rdaniel]

The female plug is the one attached to the case. Once you loosen it up, I would like to know how much  room will you have to work. Can the female plug be pulled out say a couple of inches inorder to do the soldering and unsoldering? Is there that much play in the wiring?


 

[RiseLikeRa]

French:

My mechanic has your part.  PM me and I will give you his info so that he can get it to you asap.

Ra

[OldReno]

Having done a few of these, I can tell you it is (for me) easier to drop the back metal piece which holds the plugs.  Generally there's not a lot of play in the harness.  4 screw hold it in place, (see http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=20192.0 for a pic).
Be patient and get a good light back there so you can see what you're doing.  Use the 'force' Luke...

[frenchmarky]

Email sent, thanks!

>>Having done a few of these, I can tell you it is (for me) easier to drop the back metal piece which holds the plugs.  Generally there's not a lot of play in the harness.  4 screw hold it in place, (see http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=20192.0 for a pic).
Be patient and get a good light back there so you can see what you're doing.>>

Looking at the pics, ok so I remove the two screws at each end, and I see how that lets the whole beau bracket drop down, but how do I actually remove it, do I have to take anything else out, or just finnagle it out of there?  It looked like it wouldn't be that bad just taking the one plug out, but yeah it would be ever easier if I can get the whole bracket out as well.

[OldReno]

Once you drop the bracket down, that gives you a little more play on the wiring harness, and that allows you more wiggle room.  You should be able to pull another inch or so on the harness, and that will let you get at the plug easier.  see if you can use some vise grips gently or other clamp of some kind to hold the plug down so that you don't need 3 hands to change out the wiring.  Or try a couple of long screws onto a piece of scrap wood to hold it in place.  You can remove either the left or right reel mech slide to help get the bracket down farther.  You can either leave the plug in place on the bracket, or remove it.  I have redone plugs outside of the bracket, but it often takes some work to get it back into the hole of the bracket.  Hope that helps...?
Oh, and you're going to need some good deal of patience, and it would not hurt at all to write down all the wire connections BEFORE you start unsoldering the old plug.  Make sure you take your time with this so you don't get frustrated.  Also make sure you pre-tin your plug connectors, and poke the wire through the hole and then solder it quickly yet firmly and politely in place and don't move until the solder sets.   Oh Oh, HOT, those burned fingers.  Don't use too hot an iron, and don't melt the insulation too badly.  I'm sure glad you're doing it and not me.

[frenchmarky]

I'm not sure whether I will be getting a replacement plug that has the pins already in it or not.  I was guessing that the existing pins could be removed like a Molex plug, but read that it was not easy to pull them out.  But once removed, they would just snap into a new plug, right?

You are talking about soldering the pins - am I going to have to do this or is it possible to just remove and replace the pins as described above?  I could even bust the old connector up into bits to make it even easier to get the old pins out easy since it's already cracked in half anyway.  Depends again on if the replacement I get already has pins & and their snipped-off wires in it already or not too however.

[OldReno]

I'm sure your new plug will have pins in it.
I believe the pins come out through the front, so you'll have to solder or desolder regardless.
The female pins are locked in and you can get them out with a sharp object and some squeezing and pushing.
The male pins come out after you untwist the solder side, then they push out. The twist locks them in place.
Get ready for some soldering regardless, methinks.  Have a wet sponge, and make sure your old wire end is smooth with no frizzies.
Heat the pin end first, and when you see the solder melt, push the wire end through the hole, and hold it until the solder solidifies.  Use a good fairly thin solder with a flux core.  You can clean off the flux later with some rubbing alcohol, but I don't bother.
Ow ow ow, my fingers... 
Use forceps if you get blisters, or good thin needle noses.  I like the pain, myself, keeps me from overheating it.

[frenchmarky]

Fixed this last week, thought I'd update the info here. 

Got a pair of female beau plugs.  Originally on Foxslots Ebay page it said he did not carry any of the femaile sockets I needed, but contacted him and it turned out DID have a pair (NOS to boot!) so I ordered.  Also thanks to Ra though for offering another source though turned out I didn't need it after all.

Made a diagram of the old plug and wire colors going to each pin, the unsoldering and resoldering went pretty fast.  I found that simply removing the two side brackets and pulling the connector out as far as it's wires would allow gave me ample room to handle the desoldering/resoldering.  I even transferred each wire one at a time from old to new connector just to make completely sure I didn't have a mix up.  Rechecked all the wires, shoved the reel unit back in, plugged her in, and... uh-ohh, wouldn't coin up.  If *felt* like the connectors had hooked up ok, so I worried that maybe I stiill had made a wiring goof.  Pulled the reel mech back out, then I noticed that now, on the old LEFT connector, one of it's two large, round pins had popped loose inside it's socket hole.  So, it wasn't making contact anymore, so I tweaked the 'sprung' end of it so that it stays good and tight and locked again.  Retested, everything is working correctly again, whoopee!  Feels good to finally nail down what this stupid payout problem turned out to be, to get that crummy busted connector out of my baby, and to brush up on my soldering a bit too, was getting rusty.    Thanks for all help and info offered!   .... Mark French

[frenchmarky]

Naturally I just found out I spoke too soon about everything working perfectly, but at least it isn't related to the plugs.  Just now I started getting goofy stuff happening with the coining and the coin reject relay.  Sure looks like it's the large wiring bundle that goes to the door, the one that has to take all the flexing.  Opening the door causes these to start acting up/coils opening etc.  Sometimes the 5th coin ends up getting snagged by the coin reject relay cutting out while a coin is still going thru, then if it turns back on it ends back up on '1 coin' when the quarter is let loose.  Isolated it to just barely touching that bundle and the reject relay clicks on and off, could have other bad wires too for all I know.  Tugged elsewhere like the door connectors and on the other end of the bundle, doesn't seem to be coming from there.  Time to bust out the old ohmmeter and start checking the wires one by one.  My Black Hole pinball machine has the same kind of issue, where the lights in the coin door are cutting out from a similar wire bundle but I haven't started on that yet since it only affects the coin slot lamps.  Darn flexing wires!