Help with my Bally 937

[Rgull77]

Hi again, I'm starting work on my Bally 937 Twin Lightning machine. I have owned this machine for 10 years and it had been working fine until about 4 years ago. The problem is with payouts but before I can address that, I have to get a handle issue resolved.

Since it wasn't used for 4 years or so the handle has become difficult to pull. It's rough like it's grinding or something. Also, it doesn't, at times, kick the reels at the bottom of the stroke. I have the reel mech on my bench to lubricate but when I tried to manually cycle it, the gears stuck and didn't go back to the starting position. The reels spun and stopped okay but I can't seem to release it back.

I could also use any tips on exactly which places are best to lubricate. I have the proper oil and grease.

Thanks in advance
Randy

[Neonkiss]

Randy,
The piston is stuck in the air damper on the side.
Due to sitting the rubber gasket around the piston has turned to goooo.
Remove the four screws on the cylinder and get a roll of paper towels ready.
That old rubber is some nasty stuff. Just clean out the old melted gasket and reassemble without.
That damper was only used to keep pressure when the handle went flying back under spring pressure.

[Rgull77]

Okay, while that was good experience, it wasn't a pleasant one! That being said, the handle now works perfectly, the handle is smooth and it kicks the reels perfectly every time. Now the payout problem is this:

This is a six coin machine, it pays correctly on one and two coins in and five and six. But with the 3 or 4 coin payout lines lit, it empties out the hopper. So when 3, 4 or 5 coins are inserted ( 5th because with 5 coins in, the 4th coin is still lit) , a payoff empties the hopper. With a Lucky Twins, the 1st, 3rd and 5th coin are on the left and the 2nd, 4th and 6th coin are on the right.

When this first happened I looked to the hopper but maybe it's the step up unit on top. Since this machine played and paid fine for years, I don't think isn't too serious a problem. I just need to know where to start.

[OldReno]

Pull your top glass, and drop down the top unit so you can watch it during a pay.  Notice your X-units, the little white wheels.  They work with the hopper on multiple coin in pays.  Try a pay with 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 coins in, and note if a different X unit works with each coin during payout.  These X units should be selected by your odds disc, so give the disc a clean up and light lube with some oil.  Make sure the contacts on the disc are firm to the buttons.  They should snap when you lift and release them.
I'm pretty sure the problem is not in your hopper.
Nice machine BTW, send some pix of top unit...

[Rgull77]

This doesn't look good but here goes. Now this machine has two winner paid lights, one for each side. If there is a pay from both left and right, both lights light.Here's what happens:

Left side = 1st-3rd-5th coin
Right side= 2nd-4th-6th coin

1& 2 coins in----- pays and resets fine. Upper counter wheel doesn't move.

3 coins in--- Right right side (still 2nd coin) pays okay. Upper counter wheel moves as coins are paid.
                 Left side runaway hopper. Upper counter wheel does not move. Winner paid light goes on and resets
4 coins in---Right side runaway hopper, Upper counter wheel does not move. Winner paid light goes on, does not reset. (It will reset after a pay with 2 coins in)
                Left side runaway hopper. Upper counter wheel does not move. both winner paids go on, right one doesn't reset.
5 coins in---Right side runaway hopper, Upper counter wheel does not move. Winner paid light goes on, does not reset. (It will reset after a pay with 2 coins in)
                left side (5th coin) pays correctly and upper counter wheel moves with pay.
6 coins in--- Pays and winner paid lights reset fine. Upper counter wheel moves as coins are paid out.

In the picture, the left counter wheel is the one that moves. The other wheel has not moved that I have seen.

So it seems that the machine doesn't count coins when the pay is on the lit 3 or 4 coin line.

[Rgull77]

Two other pics....

[OldReno]

Very detailed, thank you.  Will have to chew on that awhile.
Try tracing back the wire from your two wheels and see where they go.  I suspect the one that isn't moving is the problem.  You don't need to trace the orange wire, do the other one.  Find out where they go in the top unit.  I'm thinking they go to your odds disc, Picture 1.  Try ohming them out or give a good visual inspection.  Also ohm out both the coils on your wheels to see that they are the same.
Great description, it'll just take me a bit to read it a few times and try to puzzle it out.  I'm guessing a broken wire, or bad coil/solenoid on the wheel that doesn't move. (brown with white trace?)  If it goes to the odds disc, look behind the disc to make sure the jumper from that wire is connected and soldered to one or more of the buttons correctly.
Great.

[Rgull77]

Okay, I'll trace the wire tomorrow. I believe it goes to the plug that goes out to the bottom of the machine. I'll test the solenoid too. Again, whatever has malfunctioned was due to time as the machine hasn't been messed with since it was working properly.

Thanks for your help so far. I appreciate it.

[OldReno]

Here's an afterthought and a test.  Using a small screwdriver, push back on the plunger that operates your nonworking wheel assembly.
Then try your pays again on 3 and 4 coins played.  If I am correct it will pay the same as times 1 coin.
In other words, manually step that wheel one step.  If that works, I will explain what happened.  If it don't, then I won't...

[Rgull77]

Here are my test results. I did advance that multiplier wheel and the machine had the same pay errors. I traced the wire to the step up unit but I figured I would test all the coils first before I reply back here. The coil in the picture below didn't fire and blew a fuse. Obviously it's visibly fried but i missed this yesterday. This coil used to chatter when I first got the machine 10 years ago so I purchased a replacement. But before it arrived I read how to adjust the stack so I fixed the buzz and never even opened the package, that is until today. I had a hard time finding this coil because of the third wire in the middle. The guy only had this one but the numbers don't match.

So my question now is, will this coil work or do I need to find an exact matching coil (G33-2800 or G32-2500) with a 3rd wire?

I hope this solves the problem......

ooops, picture of the coil is on next post...

[Rgull77]

Here's the coil...

[OldReno]

Nice work! 
If it were me, I'd probably try the coil to see what happens, if it is the same dimensions and fits.  There are very few 3-wire coils on Bally slots that I've seen, I think mostly they're on pinballs to make the flippers work faster, so I have no clue about the function of that one....  It might be some kind of holding circuit?
In the meantime you might try a couple of things.
First is to step your X unit wheel one more step and try pays again.
The next would be to physically push down the armature on your bad coil during a payout to see if that makes any difference.
I vaguely recall seeing a 3-wire coil from time to time when I was working in casinos, but generally I was chasing cocktail waitresses and didn't explore too much about the circuitry.
Perhaps OpBell, or one of the other heavy hitters here can chime in and explain for us all what this coil does. I'm very curious to find out.  Of course a schematic would be very helpful....
Nice work!

[Rgull77]

I did step the X wheel. In fact when I tested the coil there it stepped many times. But the wheel itself really has nothing attached to it. The wheel moves one click with every coin paid, that is except on first payline. The hopper still ran a muck, in fact I hit triple bars on the first test spin! % of them with the 6th one notch up! Typical machine!

I never thought about manually pushing the armature. I'll try that this afternoon. I get the feeling this may be non related. The label behind this coil says "anti-cheat".

[Rgull77]

Okay, I ran the test. The coil with the 3 wires actually is still working. It is always engaged. When the hopper doesn't stop paying out I cut the power, and the coil is then not charged. When I push the armature, the hopper starts running again so it somehow related.

I also noticed that when I watch the hopper during a runaway pay, the pay wheel never engages so the wiper blades don't move and thus it doesn't know to stop. On other pays that are normal, the zero stops (there are two) trip and reset normally.

[OldReno]

OK, I think your 3 pin coil is related to your tilt switches, the little ones with the weights.  You hsould have 2 of them, and if you put a piece of paper in between the contacts, your coil should turn off I think.  Will get back to you on the rest, as I've got stuff going on right now.

[Rgull77]

Okay, there's no rush. The anti cheat coil, in spite of its appearance, seems to function so I don't think it's involved.

Perhaps I'm going about this wrong. Since the operation of any of all machines is essentially the same, I should be asking a more simple question. What would cause a hopper to time out on any Bally machine?

 I looked at the hopper today and the zero stops aren't stuck and they set and reset fine, again it has two payout discs. So when a payout occurs on the 3rd or 4th coin lit pay, the hopper payout wheel or wheels don't engage but the hopper spits out coins. Any other lit pays are normal. (This is a 6 coin single line machine)

Now I'm sure someone out there has had that happen.

I appreciate any input.
Thanks, Randy

[OldReno]

The hopper times out because the coin out switch of the hopper is not resetting your safety timer motor (in simple terms it also works with a tiny switch on the back of your hopper board that falls into the 100 tooth gear notches - every 5 steps on the outer back ring). 
That timer unit is on the back left side behind the hopper.  It has a white push button, and a red neon light that goes on when the unit times out and turns off the 120V to the machine.  There is 120V live back there so use caution!!!  Don't be poking your fingers back there unless the machine is unplugged!
The coins out (every 5 steps of the hopper board) will allow the timer motor to momentarily lose power, and the spring under the timer dial allows it to reset just a tiny bit.  If it doesn't reset, it keeps running and eventually physically pushes that back button of that white push button (it's a 2 way) and shuts off the machine, stopping a runaway.
Your hopper has two payout discs?  Wow, send pics, please.
Is your non-working X unit working again or no?  You might take a close look at it, and there should be a set of contacts on the inside that make to the board.  If either of these two contacts are not making, that will make the machine run away.  (Check the other X unit to see what I mean)
The 3rd and 4th coin pays should be times two of what normal pays are, so they have to use the X2 unit, which it sounds like is the one that is or was not working.  The 5th and 6th coin pays use the X3.  There is no X1, it is a straight payout.  Every 2nd step of the X2 steps the hopper board once.  Every 3rd step of the X3 steps the hopper board once.  So it is pay times 2,  and pay times 3 depending on which lines or coins in you are paying for.
Hope that helps a bit.
(Actually there are 2 ways to time out the machine, and for X units, the timer is generally set for a shorter time than a machine that does not use X units.  Actually there are at least 4 types of pay systems, but let's not get confused over this)  If you send a pic of your two hopper boards, that might help, and you may even have a 5th kind of pay system...?

BTW, while testing this stuff, do put some paper in between your tilt or slam switches, because if they're closed the machine is in kind of  a tilt, and when your top unit is down, as you can see in your picture, the switch is closed by the weight of your metal piece holding it down.

You can ohm out your X2 board by the way... in one position it will read ohms, and on the next step it will not read ohms.
The X3 will ohm out on every 3rd step.
Put one probe on feed, and the other on any other soldered connection at top of the X board.
Well, I'm typed out for now.

[Rgull77]

I have to read your post a few times tomorrow at work. But I will say that the hopper times out as it should because even when it should pay just 4 coins, it just keeps running.

The 2X unit does not work still. Here's what I don't understand. It sounds like you are saying that there should be wiper fingers on the X board. But there is just two wires connected to the board. So there isn't anything that makes contact to the wiper board like on a stepper. The 3X is the same, it just clicks and advances with the hopper.

Here are two pics of the hopper. When I bought this the guy said, "you'll be sorry, it'll give you nothing but trouble". So far, accurate!

[OldReno]

Good pics, thanks.  So, one payboard works for the left side pays, and the other for the right it appears?
Do both payboards step up on 1, 2, 5, and 6 coins played?
If you look at your X units, in between the wheel and the board, you should have a set of contacts that rub on the board. You can pull out the X unit, and remove the little clip that holds the wheel on and pull off the wheel to see what's happening.
The X2 board has an inner contact onto the feed segment (which is always contacting), and the other outer finger hits on separated tabs.  One step, it hits a wired tab (and steps the hopper board)  The next step it hits a blank non wired tab (no step to hopper board)  The X2 has 5 hot tabs, and 5 no hot tabs or blanks.  Half the tabs are hot, and half are not.
The X3 unit has 12 tabs (divisible by 3)  So, step, hot, step hopper.  Step no hot no step hopper, step no hot no step hopper, step hot and steps hopper, etc. etc.  one third of the tabs are hot, two thirds are not.  You only need 2 wires because if you look, there are jumpers soldered onto the tabs at top of the board which connect the hot ones all together, plus your feed wire -- two wires. 
That's about as simply as I can put it, and I don't have one to look at so I may be somewhat mistaken, but the theory is correct.
So I think your problem is that the X2 solenoid is not being activated, and this will cause a runaway on your 3 and 4 coins in pays.  Trace the wire back from the solenoid, and find where it is broken or not contacting.  I think it is on your odds disc.  You need power to the X2 solenoid to get it to work right.
By the way, are your hopper pay boards identical, or do they have different pay segments on them?

[OldReno]

Postscript -- the X units allow the hopper to step or not step.  The hopper does not control the X units, it is the reverse, the X units allow the payboard to step or not step.  If the X unit board were stuck on a hot tab, you would have a shortpay.  If it is stuck on a not hot tab, you will have a runaway hopper, and no step of the payboard.

[Rgull77]

The hopper payboards are the same and yes they step up with 1/2 and 5/6 coins played. If by step up you mean advance as it pays.

 One payboard is for the left and one is for the right. The machine has 5 reels, the left game pays left to right and the right pays right to left. They share the middle reel. With two coins in, when you get a cherry on the left reel, just one payboard activates (pays 2). A cherry on the other end (5th reel)  activates the other payboard (pays 2). If you get a cherry on both ends, both payboards activate (pays 4).

I have to look closer at the X2 board. If the contacts are behind the wheel, then I missed it. I'll check that first. The wire from the coil goes to the odds wheel. from there I'm not sure.

Unfortunately I'm at the office so I'll get back later today after I check out that X2 unit. Thanks

[Rgull77]

I can't believe it but the machine is fixed! I took the X2 apart and cleaned the contact board. It was making connection but I figured why not. When i was reassembling the unit I noticed that the wire to the coil was just hanging there in mid air. Now I know I ohmed that connection and it didn't appear loose or anything but maybe it was. I re soldered it and sure enough, it started to pay perfectly.

All these years and it was a loose wire or a cold solder? I put this machine in the garage last month so I could bring it to LA Slots to be fixed. Imagine how much that would have cost.....

So Reno, do you have a 'donate button'?? I really appreciate your time and patience and help. I'm out of broken down Ballys but you never know, I'm always looking for more! When I get up your way I'll buy you a drink.....we'll chase a few cocktail waitresses....LOL

[OldReno]

I had faith in you.  Good job.
Sure, I'll take a free drink....
If you're looking for a nice 742A conversion, I got one....
Oh, and I don't think my sweetie will let me chase cocktail waitresses, but we can look, anyway.
thanks and nice work!!!