Bally Hold & Draw Model 961 EM

[David B Fowler]

Just a little note to get it out here.... I just picked up one of these machine and am looking forward to getting into fixing it so it will work. Any manuals out there specifically for this model? I will be posting alot on this machine because it lights up.... I cant get it to coin up but manually can get the wheels to spin. So here I go .... pictures and pictures and more pictures to follow along with questions.
Thanks in advance for the help.

The Fatman ..... but not for too much longer

  ... OR ... 

[Op-Bell]

I have a hold and draw machine, probably similar, but I see no pictures here.

[David B Fowler]

Thanks for the response but I have repaired most of it and dumped it at auction.

 

[JanGbg]

Just a little note to get it out here.... I just picked up one of these machine and am looking forward to getting into fixing it so it will work. Any manuals out there specifically for this model? I will be posting alot on this machine because it lights up.... I cant get it to coin up but manually can get the wheels to spin. So here I go .... pictures and pictures and more pictures to follow along with questions.
Thanks in advance for the help.

The Fatman ..... but not for too much longer

  ... OR ... 

Did you found any manuals for that machine? I have a PDF for them.

[David B Fowler]

Never did find one. I am interested in the file if that's possible.
Dave

[JanGbg]

Which one do you have? I have worked with some of them.
Here you go! This manual is for a lot of Bally EM:
http://rwatts.cdyn.com/download/bally_em_manual/bally%20em%20manual.pdf

[zinda]

Just a little note to get it out here.... I just picked up one of these machine and am looking forward to getting into fixing it so it will work. Any manuals out there specifically for this model? I will be posting alot on this machine because it lights up.... I cant get it to coin up but manually can get the wheels to spin. So here I go .... pictures and pictures and more pictures to follow along with questions.
Thanks in advance for the help.

The Fatman ..... but not for too much longer

  ... OR ... 

Did you found any manuals for that machine? I have a PDF for them.

I'm desperately looking for anything to do with a Hold and Draw style machine, got a Matador, with hold feature but can't get the Hopper to pay out anything. Problem is probably due to modified wiring that I cannot follow the logic of what they were trying to do. Should pull 2 times for 1 coin but only allows 1 pull per coin. all lights work and accepts coins and unlocks handle now. Only saw the hold light come on the fist time I had a coin register, never did again.
If you have a wire diagram that shows the hopper section I believe that's where the problem is. I just remembered this machine has no timer circuit? I saw nothing behind the hopper and no wires leading to that area. This may be the problem but without knowing which wires should be running to it I can't even bypass that switching.


Thanks
Robert

[David B Fowler]

Is there a plate under the handle? This has the model # on it. If not, sometimes it is written on the wiper boards behind the reels. Unfortunately when a butcher gets a hold on one of these machines, they mess them up so bad sometimes that its almost better to start at the beginning. Most of the switches on the reel bundle are similar but always either open or closed. Make sure all your voltages are there, 50 V for the coils and 6 V for the lamps. Start by checking these on the reel bundle and the hopper as well. Thats what I do.... seems to help get things at lease running somewhat.
Dave

[Op-Bell]

Your Matador machine is too old to have a timer circuit.

Check the hopper - pull out the mech, giving you access from above, then with the machine powered on, manually push down the win relay and see if the hopper runs. Be real careful doing that as there's 110V on the contacts. A leather glove is advisable. Don't poke it with a metal screwdriver.

[zinda]

Thanks guys, I have taken a closer look before I read your replies and have now been able to get the hopper spinning when it tries to pay out! 
Problem is the payout is not paying on anything that it should be!!!  Making this one number 2 of my wiper board rewiring projects. I took a look at it and drew up a new diagram as I already am very confident that none exist as usual. Seems that the machines I end up with are the models that have no information on them to be found!
 No problem though I've become used to doing these without any diagrams now and have once again drawn up a new diagram showing current flow through the reel wiper boards. The wires are not labeled like Bally has them, I recommend removing all existing wirs that run between the reel boards before starting to figure out what so many others have spent time screwing up before you owned it.  This will make the job go so much easier. I prefer to use wires colored for the symbols they represent and maybe have a white & black striped version of that solid colored wire. This way you can see purple solid on 3rd reel going to 2 with purple white leaving going to 1 and if there is a need to have another wire that's where you can use the black striped one. On 4 reels it's much more complex and this 3rd wire is also used on (almost) every reel and even a 4th will come into play on some symbols.
  This diagram took about 15 minutes to draw up and I haven't tested it yet since it's still has wet ink on the paper.
 I'm very confident that the hopper should respond correctly after I rewire the wipers. The only problem I face now is trying to decipher the rewiring job they did to solve why it only allows 1 pull per coin.
 The hold and draw light only lit up the very first time I got it to accept a coin but never after that. From what I understand it should offer the option if there is no payout on the first pull. So if there is no second pull then the light will not be lit?
 I guess I need to know how they go about allowing the 2 pulls to happen, The only thing I can guess is there has to be a switch that is set during the first pull and then released on the second pull? This has to be wired directly in line with the coin acceptor circuit but functions off of the handle and reels assembly. I tried to follow the wires up to handle release area but failed to see anything that was wired in to make this happen. there are a bunch of extra switches and another wheel but I can't seem to find the wires that tie into that assembly. I was looking for a switch that has the ability to stay open or closed by a mechanical device but can't find the tie into anything. If the coin is accepted and plays that means the switch is closed for that circuit, if the first pull opens the circuit then the second controlling switch is not engaging to keep the circuit alive, There needs to be 2 switches operating each play (2 pulls=1 play unless there is a payout on the line) The signal travels from the coin switch up to the handle release then back to the coin mech to block more coins, then to the second circuit that will stay closed until the reels stop. Then either get a payout signal which will open that 2nd switch or remain closed if none. This should then keep the handle release coil energized and energize the buttons that work the coils on the hold bar(s). Then the second pull will open the second switch and the current will then go through the other side of the secondary switch which will act as regular play, Then the reels stop and the hold and draw coils loose power and  the play circuit is reset back to start again. Meaning both switches are open till a coin is accepted sending the pulse to start the next play.
 Is this close to what is happening? I'm sure there is a bit more wiring involved but the general idea should work something like that, or is it more mechanical?
Or is it driven by coils again and not directly from switches and moving parts. 

Here's another reel wiper diagram I have drawn up for those who might need this to trouble shoot the previous owners rewiring or maybe their own rewiring that they quit in the middle of repairing. Well I thought I would post it but there is no option to do that here again so I'll try posting in a repairs thread.

[Op-Bell]

Look for "multiple step unit" on the left side of the mechanism next to the clock. This is what gives the two games. The solenoid is tripped by the second half of the coin mech, which you don't have, via a blue-red wire. Then it advances mechanically when the handle is pulled.

[zinda]

Thanks a bunch on that info, I saw the blue red wire and was wondering exactly how it was supposed to be utilized. I have more coin mechs and I see if I have anything that will work.
Got the entire machine apart and redoing the wiper boards right now, Finding many incorrect and extra wires that were run but a lack of any useful ones. nightmare starts with different colored wires run between beau plugs from reels to hopper! even sliced wires between them too! really makes for a confusing troubleshoot when wires are disconnected and left hidden in the loom that's wrapped with sticky old tape, or spliced mid run with a mismatched color wire. Jumpers on beau plug pins wires going in circles and don't even make a powered circuit, while the original wires lay disconnected right next to the useless new ones.  Had to take a break for a few minutes.
 Thanks again

[jim k-falls]

Robert, I sent y some pages on hold and draw, I don't have a schematic for model 783, but read somewhere that its similar to a 891-1...I have multiple copies of this if you need one. jim k-falls

[zinda]

Robert, I sent y some pages on hold and draw, I don't have a schematic for model 783, but read somewhere that its similar to a 891-1...I have multiple copies of this if you need one. jim k-falls

Anything to get me more antiquated to how things need to be wired or just to see the idea of how things work on other similar machines work would be absolutely fantastic! I have just finished up rewiring the wiper boards and noticed that the 2 large payouts have no place on the hopper to pay and the wires run to the Sir Prize assembly. There again wires have been altered and much of it seems to make no sense as to why or what has been altered or disconnected either by accident or for some purpose that eludes me.

Thanks a bunch!
Robert

[zinda]

The email that was sent was too large and was not accepted by my service! my max size is 15728640 bytes and the message was 19785198 bytes so if there was anty way to divide it up into 2 separate emails it would be great. I appreciate your attempt to help me I had no idea of the restriction I never had this message appear before.
Thanks
Robert

[zinda]

Update:
Rewired wiper boards, reassembled the machine and had no hopper action. Tried another hopper from another machine and it spun right up but unfortunately it was just a tad bit larger or deeper placing the gears further back into the case. It then proceeded to pull the wire loom into the gears! 
 It barely even slowed down when it pulled 20 wires through the gears, finally severed one of the rewire job wires which is more like 22 gauge and that stopped it before I could even get to the switch.
 Had to remove the upper beau plugs and angle part that holds them, unscrew the lower beau plug bracket and rip a few wies loose from the transformer to be able to get the hopper far enough out of the case to remove the motor. I tried to remove the plate but it can't be removed while the hopper is in place. The hopper actually touches the plate that separates the top and bottom areas. I think this is due to the sides not having the metal walls and the bottom has been pushed up slightly over time. While the sides have slightly spread out, I ran some larger screws in the sides in place of the old ones that were no longer getting a bite or were missing all together.
 The damage was 4 wires were cut and they were all of the replaced wires that I should replace anyway. The hopper was undamaged and works just fine back back in it's original machine.
 I pretty much gave up after that, 2 days work that ended up coming to an abrupt halt in just a few seconds and never was able to find out if the reels are wired correctly, I was feeding quarters into the hopper to see when it would stop when this all happened.
 I bought a wire diagram for a Deluxe Draw Bell in hopes that it may show some similarities. 

[Joeylc]

Can we please take this topic to the new site http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?board=77.0
we don't want to lose all of this good info when the old site go's off line... Thanks Joeylc 

[zinda]

Can we please take this topic to the new site http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?board=77.0
we don't want to lose all of this good info when the old site go's off line... Thanks Joeylc 

Can do! I just found a guy in Belgium Who has exported manuals on this machine manual #200 covers the 783 models!