IGT I Games

[jdkmunch]

Is there a list of the games that are available for the I?

Also what is the going price for the games without glass.  I saw Tacman got one from eBay for $100 - is that unusual ?

I just started thinking about which brand slot to get this summer and I would like to see the games and what's available.  For me - the glass on a video slot is irrelevant - I think I would even have my own made up. 

It would be great to create a menu when you turned the machine on where you could select from several games.

[tacman]

jdkmunch, Take a look at the IGT site or if you have a particular game and give Jim at Blueridge or Slotmaster a jingle and see if the title is available. Game title sets usually run $175-200 for the I game. But Jim especially has run some specials here. When perusing the IGT site you'll have to look in the Gameking video slots and I believe if the title says "enhanced", like Coyote Moon or House of the Dead, then it is a 044 platform game.

 Dan (tacman)

[Flexpipe]

Yes, Idkmunch,  IGT is working on, or probably has the "Server Based System" you spoke of. That being, a menu of games are displayed on a screen, and you select the game of your choice. Once selected, it goes to a  very secure server and within a second or two,that game is downloaded, and  you are playing that game. As home users, we will never see that system in our Game room. We will have to be content with switching out Game SIMMS and EPROMS, to get the game of our choice.

[stayouttadabunker]

On the old website,
there was some discussion of rigging up some type of board that would go where the game prom and reel prom sockets.
The specially made board would house several types of games and reel info on a flash-based chip that would be capable of holding much more information than the 512's that are presently being used.
Switching between different games would be as easy as flipping a dipswitch- installed just for this purpose.
The dipswitch would be placed outside of the MPU cover tray so it would be easy to manipulate too because you would still have to manually hit the test switch, hit the power switch, and or turn the reset key based on what game chips you were changing up to-instead of physically removing the MPU and changing the chips.
I beleive that someone with board etching skills and board design could possibly make something like this...but it would quite a bit of time and money to accomplish.
What would be even better is instead of dipswitches, I thought you could connect the special board (that was loaded with game and reel info) up to the player tracking keypad on the faceplate and punch in whatever game you wanted.
Certain numbers would be pre-programmed to open/close the door optics,test switch so you'd never have to open the door to change the game.
But with these being S+'s, and S2000's..none of that is possible because you'd still have to physically change the reel strips and award/belly glasses.
This special board idea could only be limited to a few reel chips instead- such as different reel percentage reel chips.
That way there wouldnt be any physical changes (glass/strips,etc.)
I don't anyone will go through all that time and effort just to accomplish that...
plus, I like physically changing chips and messing around with them...

[jay]

Theoretically you could modify a S+ to be totally electronic.
You could change out the Top Glass with a LCD panel, and the same with the Belly.
The chips could be manged by dip switches, ie create a bank of chips that you can select via vi dip switch.
You could go high tech and use Electrical Eraseable proms and the same computer that you use to drive the displays that would mange writing and erasing the chips depending on the theme. With a little ingenuity you could use a touch screen in the top box to select the theme you want to play.

As pointed out the reel strips would be the most interesting. You can get the bendable LCD displays.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Sony_develops_Skinny__Bendable_Display
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/22232/?a=f
These however are pretty new, high tech and would probably cost a fortune to get ones created the size of a reel strip.
If however this came to pass you would simply display the reel strip on the screen and the reel would still spin like normal.

Going a bit more low tech you could use a LCD panel for the reel strips. You would need to program up the reel strips into the computer.
The S+ reels are a stepper motor. This means it takes a value and moves the reel to that position. This is why when your slot is off you can move the reels into any position you want but when you turn the power back on they return to the exact spot that they were. You then input these values into the computer and display whatever the corresponding syfmbol that matches the number. If you wanted to do the illusion of the reels spinning you simply display the correct symbol in the middle of thee screen and then 2 symbols behind and 2 past as the values change during the spin cycle the reels would appear to spin on the screen. I think the interface is called an A-2-D convertor (Analog to Digital) . Captain happy could probably describe this interface better as he does real time interfacing on industrial computers.

All good fun thinking about what we could do given unlimited time and money..... Or for 3K go buy an IGame platform.

[stayouttadabunker]

You had me going there with a lot of good ideas and explanation until you said...."Or for 3K go buy an IGame platform"

[jay]

I am not a fan of video slots.... Video Poker is ok in my books because it is interactive, but the slots just grate on me.
We all know that the final resting spot of the reel is simply 3 numbers picked by a computer and the whole spinning thing is just for show.
Even the nudge, spin to win, and haywire behaviors are just a dog and pony show....

But when they show spining reel symbols on the video screen it really doesn't do it for me.
You might as well show me a clip of the Simpsons and then tell me if I won or lost as at least I would be entertained.

I would think however if you were to put LCD reel strips on, and spin those. You could do annimations and all sorts of other cool stuff on the strip itself while it is spinning.... now that would be a good marriage of the two technologies.

Combne this with the transmissive reel glass (see through LCD) and it would be one heck of a cool machine.

[jdkmunch]

What about when you go to the bonus round on those video slots?   Are they predetermined too?

[jay]

Pre-determined is a strong word.
Once you hit the Spin button the RNG (Random Number Generator) values are locked in.

Regardless if this is a stepper slot like a S+ or a Video Slot the machine knows the outcome long before its displayed for you.

IF bonus rounds require interaction then you might have some influence on the outcome (ie like hold/draw on video poker) but if its RNG based the outcome is computed and then displayed.

Given "the gamiing industry" need/desire to increase the speed of play (ie min hands per hour for the dealers, shuffle machines etc) I have always wondered if the SPIN time was decreased between the S+ and the S2000 platform.
For instance if you were the IGT sales guy it has to be a selling feature that you could go to the Harrahs buyer and say the rate of play is  17 games per 5 min, while Ballys is only 12 games per 5 min.
This means your revenue on the IGT machines is potentially 30% more over the same period of time.  Or per my speculation a reason to upgrade... from S+ to S2000

[tacman]

Well, thats actually a pretty good question, with games like Cleopatra with bonus spins then the RNG would function the same way as regular game play or is the entire bonus amount predetermined at the first spin and then just played out in the consecutive spins. Then in interactive player choosing does is the amount behind the item not set until chosen by the player to display the RNG determined value?

 Dan (tacman)

[StatFreak]

People have made that claim before but I don't believe that they would do that. There is nothing to be gained by predetermining the outcome of a bonus feature and everything to lose with regards to customer trust and perception. Many of the games display all of the unselected choices afterwards just to prove that they were all there. Jackpot Party does this, for example. If you do the math on the prize values available and the odds of getting to the bonus, the payback is under 100%.

My point is that as long as the longtime odds of any machine's bonus round have been calculated by the designers and set to pay back amounts that will net the casino longtime profits, there is no need to predetermine, or "lock in" the final value of a bonus feature that is claiming to offer the player a choice.

In fact, last year, I had had some contact with a designer in Australia who wrote a program to calculate payback on complicated bonus structures involving reel-power slots. One of the reasons that his program was so sophisticated was because it was impractical to do the straight math on the bonuses simply because there were so many permutations. Instead, the test program ran millions of simulations to get the standard deviation and longtime expected payout. Again, the point being that the outcomes were not predetermined at the start of the bonus.

Of course, none of this means that predetermined outcomes have never been used by one company or another at any given time.

[jay]

My point was that if there were 3 reels.... The moment you hit the spin button the values are calculated and the process of going through the reel cycle is just for show.

IF outcome was that you get a TOP box spin. IE Treasure Wheel or Wheel of fortune (something non interactive). Then the outcome is likely already calcuated and again the top wheel spin is just for show.

A  interactive game is a different story.......

[StatFreak]

My point was that if there were 3 reels.... The moment you hit the spin button the values are calculated and the process of going through the reel cycle is just for show.

IF outcome was that you get a TOP box spin. IE Treasure Wheel or Wheel of fortune (something non interactive). Then the outcome is likely already calcuated and again the top wheel spin is just for show.

A  interactive game is a different story.......

I agree, and the PAR sheets for the WOF type of games that I've seen bear this out. The top box spin pulls its own number from the RNG and applies it to a weighted table that determines the outcome in the same way that the three-reel outcome is determined. Barcrest top box bonuses do the same thing.

I was responding to jdkmunch and tacman's question regarding bonus rounds in modern video slots.


Just as a side note, an interesting hybrid of the two is the Wms Dotmation Mermaid's Gold. The three amounts available are randomly determined prior to the bonus round beginning and are heavily weighted towards lower-paying amounts (treasure chest multipliers not withstanding). After the level of the three amounts is selected, the player is supposedly choosing between them using the three buttons. The three amounts are always in the same "class". You never get an amount that is out of proportion to the other two.

I have had several people tell me that they believe that the final outcome of this game is predetermined, and that the button the player presses makes no difference. They argue that it would be impossible for the player to tell the difference (because the values of the unselected chests are not revealed, and even if they were, it could still be "rigged") It seems to me that the weighted selection of the three values in the first place is what controls the long-term payback of the bonus on this game, and that this would obviate the need to fake the player selection process.

The only way to know for certain would be to ask the guys who actually wrote the code, or someone who worked at the NGC testing facility at the time that the game was going though the approval process. I asked Clay to ask the Dotmation programmers that he knows if the MG chest selection was bogus (predetermined), but he never posted an answer.

[dpalmi]

Hello all!

I would l love to find out the facts on this one.  My opinion is that bonus rounds are predetermined and that the outcome is the same no matter which box or coin or whatever you select.  The machines just gives the illusion that you are affecting the outcome by selecting something.  I just find it hard to believe a slot machine has any kind variance where the player can affect the outcome.  If that is the case, I can see why it's a well hidden secret.  Just like the old Universal's that would show a spin that was close to a win when it wasn't just to fool with the player's mind.  But of course, I have no proof to back up any of this.  I just can't see slot manufacturers and slot owners allowing anything to chance....

Dan #2

[StatFreak]

...
I just find it hard to believe a slot machine has any kind variance where the player can affect the outcome.  If that is the case, I can see why it's a well hidden secret.  Just like the old Universal's that would show a spin that was close to a win when it wasn't just to fool with the player's mind.  But of course, I have no proof to back up any of this.  I just can't see slot manufacturers and slot owners allowing anything to chance....

Dan #2

Every spin is allowed to chance. It's theoretically possible to hit the top prize on every spin, but it is extremely unlikely because of the math that drives the outcomes. Giving a player a blind choice in a bonus is no different. The player has no knowledge of which choice will produce a particular outcome, so his or her action is just another random selection.

Let's say that I want to pay out an average of 10 coins in the long run for each bonus round and I'm going to offer the player three selections. Let's say that the three selections are to be 2 coins, 8 coins, and 20 coins, and all three choices are equally weighted (you have a one in three chance of selecting any of them). Now as the designer, I know that an individual player might get "lucky" and hit five 20-coin wins in a row, but for every one of him there will be some other poor sap who will hit five 2-coin wins in a row. I also know that after several thousand plays that the amount paid out will be almost exactly 10 coins per play.

Question: Does it matter if I use a random number generator to select one of the three outcomes and then force that outcome on the player regardless of the button they push, or if I offer all three outcomes every time and randomly assign each one to one of the buttons so that the button pushed determines the outcome? Remember that the player has no knowledge of the value assigned to any button at any time.

In the long run there will be no difference mathematically. The only difference is one of legality and maintaining the trust of the player. I know that Nevada law states that if a particular winning combination is displayed on a machine, then that outcome must be possible for the machine to be operating lawfully, and the casino is obligated to pay the amount listed in the pay table for that combination. I don't know how this applies to bonus rounds, but it seems to me that it should apply. If three amounts are simultaneously displayed as being immediately available to the player, then they should be available to the player while they are being displayed.

It's all a legal and moral issue; the math is the same either way.

[Ron (r273)]

And remember ALL machines are designed to make the casino's money in the long run, hence the inception of RNG.

Ron

[tacman]

I just picked up a Simm Set off Ebay and the Simm #'s are C0000636. None of my references have this number. Can anyone assist in identifying this Simm set? The DSS is 156, which is a GK generic. Thanks!

 Dan (tacman)