Bally 831 Hopper over pay driving me crazy

[Amachanic]

I have a Bally 831 with the old style hopper. I am getting a 1 coin over pay (sometimes) due to the motor coasts, no brake like newer style.. I have read the manual and adjusted this hopper the best I can.. I know the coins should be kicked back into the bowl by the solenoid operated deflector.. I'm looking for anyone who has had to fine tune one of these older mechanical counting hoppers.. I've seen this same style hopper with a relay setup, and second solenoid for advancing the payout disk, but mines the lever and spring setup.. Pain in the a**    I hoping OldReno or OpBell reads this and has an answer.. It just seems that the deflector solenoid de-energizes just a 1/2 second too late and lets the coin get past as the motor coasts to a stop..  

I rebuilt the solenoid linkage today due to excessive wear at the pivot link and roll pin connection, but that didn't help..

[RiseLikeRa]

Darn the thing is CLEAN!!!  I am not exatly sure what is causing your problem.  I had the same issue with my 873 and my mechanic bent sonething on the hopper and no mor extra coin.  I will call him and ask what he suggests.

Ra

[Amachanic]

Darn the thing is CLEAN!!!  I am not exatly sure what is causing your problem.  I had the same issue with my 873 and my mechanic bent sonething on the hopper and no mor extra coin.  I will call him and ask what he suggests.

Ra

Thanks Ra... I read the manual and they talk about bending something, but the discription and pictures don't show much detail.  This whole machines that clean inside and out. Doesn't have original glass but its a later 831 EM matching glass kit. I'll have to take a couple pics.

Gary

[RiseLikeRa]

Please do!  We all love pictures.

Ra

[David B Fowler]

I dont have the knowledge that Oldreno and others have so take it easy on me if I am wrong. I attached as pic of my 831 hopper that paid out 1 coin too much on every payout. I adjusted the allen screw to advance the wiper arm just a bit forward. that solved the problem for me. Let me know if I am on track.
Dave

[Amachanic]

I dont have the knowledge that Oldreno and others have so take it easy on me if I am wrong. I attached as pic of my 831 hopper that paid out 1 coin too much on every payout. I adjusted the allen screw to advance the wiper arm just a bit forward. that solved the problem for me. Let me know if I am on track.
Dave

Hi Dave,
             I've already gone thru that adjustment. This thing was off but it's not my problem. I check my payout board with an Ohm Meter. The wipers are only the two coin payout for the first coin, after the second click it ratchets off the metal contact strip. The problem is with the timing of the solenoid coin deflector releasing knocking the third coin back into the coin bowl of the hopper. This style of hopper doesn't have a motor brake like the newer styles. The motors and coin wheel continue to coast after payout. I am getting a coin sitting inside my hopper on the knife just past the indexing roller. This hopper does count correct, I just don't understand how to setup the coin deflector adjustment. If I advance the zero stop any farther forward my zero switch won't work and I get under pays. I was so sure yesterday that it was the worn linkage on the solenoid and wrong return spring, but after fixing both I still had the same problem..

[David B Fowler]

OK .... now I am scratching my head and waiting for the Pro's to chime in with the answer. Good knowledge to have for future issues with me when it arrives.
Dave

[Amachanic]

Here are the other pics I promised.. I have 3 more waiting in the wings to be brought back to life.. A second 831 twin to this one, a 1113 EM Lowboy Wide Body fruit machine, and my newest Pick up a Nickel 5 Reel Metalist...

Gary

[Amachanic]

two more...

[David B Fowler]

They look in real good condition. I cant wait until I find a nickle Medalist to go with my quarter one.
Dave

[OldReno]

Haven't had much problem with that solenoid so this is a new one for me.  Make sure your solenoid return spring has good tension, and can snap back quickly when power is lost.  Also you might put a socket on the post that holds the pivot point of the deflector, and give it a little bit of a bend to lower where the blade sets.
You might slightly open the points on the payout relay just a teensy bit, so that when the relay turns off, those switches open more quickly.
Again, if you can lower the unit closer to the payout disc, it will engage better I'm thinking.  I do recall at least at one time bending the post which has the 'E' clip which holds the flap unit in place.  Just a tiny scootch toward the front and to the inside of the hopper bowl...
Keep us posted...

[Amachanic]

OldReno, 
                 I think your right on the spring tension. I just manually advanced the hoppers motor to put a coin on the reel shelve at the knife and indexing roller. The coin deflector didn't knock the coin back into the bowl. I will see if I have a little stronger spring and report back..

Gary

[RiseLikeRa]

Reno:

I think that what you are describing is the magic that my mechanic performed.  (see below)Can you please post pictures on the parts that you reccomend adjusting so we can all give some attention to this in the future.  The problem is not uncommon.   A few fancy arrows and circles showing parts and direction part should be bent would be nice for the must challenged of us like myself. 

Thanks a million oh great one.

You might slightly open the points on the payout relay just a teensy bit, so that when the relay turns off, those switches open more quickly.
Again, if you can lower the unit closer to the payout disc, it will engage better I'm thinking.  I do recall at least at one time bending the post which has the 'E' clip which holds the flap unit in place.  Just a tiny scootch toward the front and to the inside of the hopper bowl...
Keep us posted...
[/quote]

[Amachanic]

Well here are my finding... I went to my local hardware store and found a new spring with a little more tension. This seems to have solved my problem. The coin deflector now has enough spring tension to kick a coin back into the hopper bowl that's wedged between the hopper knife and indexing roller instead of rolling thru out into the coin tray.. That's the one thing the manuals don't mention.. It was easy to see once I pulled the hopper and ran it on my extension cable, see pic.. This  machine is one of the cleanest I've ever picked up. Thanks for your in puts, we learned something new today.. 

[tkrozleski]

Gary is the pinwheel and agitator on the EM the same as a E series?

If so, is the long screw that goes thru the agitator and thru the pinwheel, in the proper place to keep the pinwheel locked to the pin drive on the gearmotor that drives it? Should only have a very slight backlash in the pinwheel if you try to rotate it by hand in either direction.

[Amachanic]

That right.. When it put together right, then you should only have a small amount of play forward and back.. These early EM hoppers don't use that rubber agitator like the later ones do. These have a half dozen or so metal spikes or cones molded on the pinwheel to stir the coins.

[Op-Bell]

I'm a bit late to the party here and the problem seems solved, but let me add my 2 cents. A sticky AC relay or solenoid, more often than not, is caused by residual magnetism. Over a period of time the constant slamming of the moving armature into the other magnet pole forges both parts to be a very close fit over a substantial area, and this means a slight residual magnetism can hold them together after the power goes off. The solution is to break the magnetic path slightly, either by filing one part or the other so they don't fit so well, or by putting something in the way, like a very thin brass or mylar shim. For a problem like this one with the thrower solenoid, a piece of scotch tape on both shoulders will cure the problem instantly if that's what it is, but it won't be long before the tape gets cut through by the hammer action and the problem comes back.

[OldReno]

I used to demagnetize coin lockout armatures by throwing them onto a concrete shop floor, or smack them with a hammer on the vise.  Seemed to work.  Also, those armatures would eventually get half moons on them from mashing into the center post of the coil.  Filing them down also helped significantly. Residual magnetism is a trip, because they may hold together even when the power is off...making for a fun time troubleshooting.
Op-Bell, didn't they eventually put brass shims in the thrower solenoid?  I seem to recall a springy brass piece in there between the square armature, and the coil.

[Op-Bell]

I have seen some coils with a sort of brass or phosphor bronze yoke, but not all. I wonder if they were all given one to start with, but they cut through and fell off with the hammering. I for sure wouldn't want my finger in the way of that armature when it comes slamming back.