What's your opinion of the bailout?

[stayouttadabunker]

yeah....it sucks

[jay]

I think Pres Bush should go out in style....

1.  He should resign immediately.

2.  That would make Dick Cheney the President. 

3.  Cheney should appoint Condoleeza Rice his Vice President. 
(Acutally this would have been a better choice than Palen).

4.  Cheney should then resign two weeks later.

5.  That would make Condi Rice the President, making HER the first Black
    President and the first woman President. 

[Neonkiss]

I think Pres Bush should go out in style....

1.  He should resign immediately.

2.  That would make Dick Cheney the President. 

3.  Cheney should appoint Condoleeza Rice his Vice President. 
(Acutally this would have been a better choice than Palen).

4.  Cheney should then resign two weeks later.

5.  That would make Condi Rice the President, making HER the first Black
    President and the first woman President. 

Sorry Jay, She's too far down the list.
Check out the actual current presidential line of succession, as specified by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 (3 U.S.C. § 19)
Shes number 4
Here is the order
#              Office                                        Current Officer
1 Vice President and President of the Senate Dick Cheney
2 Speaker of the House of Representatives    Nancy Pelosi
3 President pro tempore of the Senate         Robert Byrd
4 Secretary of State                                   Condoleezza Rice

[rickhunter]

I believe Jay is correct, the rules of succession only apply if there's no succesor.  So if the succeding VP nominates his VP replacement, then the new VP would have the presidency in case the other one should become "un-available."  But I do agree with Jay, I've been a longtime admirer of Ms. Rice for the longest time, one of the most intelligent woman in the politcal arena in my opinion.

[Neonkiss]

Found this on Wikipedia.
"Two months after succeeding Franklin D. Roosevelt, President Harry S. Truman suggested that the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate be granted priority in the line of succession over the Cabinet so as to ensure the President would not be able to appoint his successor to the Presidency[1] (the Secretary of State is appointed by the President), whereas the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate are elected officials."

[jay]

Hey I am Canadian..... I was just going for the lets P*ss them off factor.

Some what funnier than getting Laura to short sheet the beds. Rumor has it that Bush Senior did this to the incoming Clintons... although I can't really beleive that they didn't have all the furniture and linens changed.

[Ozzy]

sinking     

[stayouttadabunker]

If these guys (GM,Ford,etc..) go down, I guess we'll all be driving something different in a few years...I wonder what though


ADD>> we lost the shoutbox?

Anyways, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[jay]

It would be an intersting scenerio. An American Car may then go UP in value as it would become a rare beast.
People in China would be importing them to get a Classic.... 

[Op-Bell]

I'm sorry - against my better judgment, I can't let this pass without comment.

Allowing the Government to get involved will only succeed in destroying these companies and pave the way for a Socialist Regime!
I am so sick of finding out how absolutely ignorant and destructive our so called representatives are to the very fabric of our Free market Capitalistic society!

You want Jobs created? You must LOWER tax's!!!  Business relocate to places were they can be more profitable. Places with the lowest possible tax base. Raising Tax's drives away business, and INCREASES Unemployment!
More Jobs mean Less Unemployment and MORE MONEY injected into the economy!
Eliminating the Capital Gains tax will also go a long way to help boost our economy.

It's not taxes that are causing the problem, least of all Capital Gains tax, the reduction of which has done a lot to make things worse. The problem was deregulating the financial markets and expecting the beneficiaries to behave with decency and restraint. What happened instead was they turned into a tank of pihranas, with junk bond kings like Milken creating money for leveraged hostile takeovers, the borrowed money being repaid by asset-stripping the victims and shutting them down. That was just after a time of rapid inflation that often made company assets like land and buildings worth more than 51% of their nominal share value. So companies became extremely nervous about falling stock prices, leading them to sell off assets themselves, close plants, reduce wages and workforces and export American jobs overseas to cheap labor areas. It also led to executives being paid mainly in stocks, just to make sure they concentrated on the important things first. What we've seen is the stock market double and double again - that's f*ing INFLATION, not wealth creation - while standards of living have fallen for nearly everyone. Manufacturing companies now employ less people than the government, and no company dares invest in anything long-term that threatens their quarterly profit figures.

It's not a financial bail-out we need to save our asses - it's manufacturing, which is true wealth creation. But we don't have either the plant we need, nor the skilled people to run it any more, and it will take years to restore it. If the markets won't invest for the long term, and we've seen that they won't, then we need to give them some encouragement, and I'm afraid the kind they need is a rope round their necks and a big stick behind them, with a few decaying corpses left hanging on the gallows as an example to the rest. And possibly some government investment, which does work when it's run by people who believe in it instead of by political appointees who hate everything it stands for. This country was never so rich and successful as it was in the 50s and 60s when the government was paying for cold-war related research into electronics and the space program. You're only able to use this forum today because US taxpayers paid for the fundamental technology behind computers and the internet. If you think the free market would have done that, you must be crazy. They would have looked at the investment required and the time to market and laughed.

[a69mopar]

I got this in an email and thought I'd post it here.
Thanks,
Wayne




> This puts a little different spin on what differentiates a domestic from
> an import.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> THE NORTH AMERICAN AUTO DEALERS AND MANUFACTURERS ARE IN  A DIFFICULT
> POSITION – THIS REPRESENTS OVER 3.5
> MILLION JOBS IN NORTH AMERICA …….IT IS TIME TO RALLY !
>
>
> LET EVERYONE KNOW
>
> For the record... Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11
>
> An interesting commentary...You might find this of interest:
>
> CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's
> contributions to the relief and recovery
> efforts in New York and Washington .
>
> The findings are as follows.....
>
> 1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions
> of the same number plus 10
> Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team
> services and office space to displaced
> government employees.
>
> 2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions
> of
> the sam e number and a fleet of
> vans, suv's, and trucks.
>
> 3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of
> the Sept. 11 attack.
>
> 4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the
> New York Police Dept.
>
> 5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation,
> funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and
> victims of the World Trade Centre
>
> 6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
>
> 7. Audi-Nothing.
>
> 8. BMW-Nothing.
>
> 9. Daewoo- Nothing.
>
> 10. Fiat-Nothing.
>
> 11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in
> August 2001
>
> 12. Isuzu- Nothing.
>
> 13. Mitsubishi-Nothing..
>
> 14. Nissan-Nothing.
>
> 15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche
> website.
>
> 16. Subaru- Nothing.
>
> 17. Suzuki- Nothing.
>
> 18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.
> Condolences posted on the website
>
> Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep
> this information in mind.
> You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by a North
> American-owned and / or North
> American based company.
> Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed
> nothing at all to the citizens of the
> United States ...
>
> It's OK for these companies to take money out of North America, but it is
> apparently not acceptable to return
> some in a time of crisis.
>
> I believe we should not forget things like this.  Say thank you in a way
> that gets their attention..
>
> BUY YOUR NEXT VEHICLE FROM GM, FORD OR CHRYSLER.
>

[paul]

Is it true that Ford is going to build a 400,000,000.00   Plant in Mexico whould that mean our bail out money would go to Mexico

[a69mopar]

Is it true that Ford is going to build a 400,000,000.00   Plant in Mexico whould that mean our bail out money would go to Mexico

Your government already said that if they gave them money it was for use in the U.S.  I am in Canada any my government is looking at giving money for the Canadian operations. (10 billion)

Thanks,
Wayne

[paul]

Did they realy mean it how do they track the money I am not saying that is bad for the company but i dont want to pay for it  I was told by an old timer 40 years ago he might not see it in his time but, I would the higest paid employee standing in the unemployment line. I took my car to firestone to get a check motor  lite looked at they told me it would cost 89.00 + the repair I went to an advance auto supply it was free how can they do that for free. We have to be honest both company and employee 

[jay]

Wayne,

The problem with dumping money into the Canadian Operations is that their profitability was based on our 65c dollar back in 2000-2004. You pay an AutoWorker 30/hr. The Canadian guy is really making $19.50 based on the controlling currency. At Par $30 is $30. I am not sure if the 80c dollar will either hold or if it is enough to attract the near-shore investment from the US. The second problem with the equation is that more than 70% of the Canadian production was destined for the US and there is already surplus inventory.

To camp onto OpBells comments, someone once commented to me about the US spending on the Mission to Mars during the financial crisis following 911 and the Iraq war. It really equated to Job Creation for the Aerospace industries of Lochead Martin and Boeing who are some of the largest contractors on the NASA projects. I thought it was brilliant. Handing out cheques to people who didn't need them was good PR but didn't really stimulate the economy like they needed.

The money being invested in the big 3 would be better spent lending to companies like Las Vegas Sands (LVS) to complete many of its building projects that create jobs before and after. Make it a 70 year secured loan at 1%. Dumping money into a company that builds cars that no one wants, in an unsustainable business model is not going to do anything but stave off the grim reaper. They need to consolidate, retool, and create a new an innovative product that is wanted and needed.

Here in Canada we would be better off re-investing in Bombardier and AirBus to create products that are world class that people wanted to buy, and hiring the work force that was held by Ford, GM, etc. Or perhaps funding the startup of a Canadian built car company from the ashes of the mothballed plants. For instance we could put in a decent light-rail system into Toronto, build the infrastructure and rail cars in Canada and get people off the 401, 402, and 410. It would be good for the environment and lower medical bills (that road is brutal).

[blueridgeslots]

It really equated to Job Creation for the Aerospace industries of Lochead Martin and Boeing who are some of the largest contractors on the NASA projects. I thought it was brilliant. Handing out cheques to people who didn't need them was good PR but didn't really stimulate the economy like they needed

When the projects are announced and take place it may seem like "why" but years later the benefits from the research comes to the public, such as the Fax Machine the Air Force had these in the 50's for flight plans and such when my father was just enlisting, or more modern, the satellite network in space, No GPS, TV Broadcasting, Communications, Weather Forecasting,  NASA seems like just a hobby shop for some big time dreamers with wild ideas, but I am sure we really don't know the true mission of some of the projects, 15 years ago some friends teased this man who everyone thought was a nut that worked at a military shooting range that told us about a gun that could shoot someone that was hiding behind say a tree, a few months ago a gun was demonstrated on a military show that did the exact thing, be it heat tracing or what it was the same thing everyone laughed at as impossible, so what we think is useless research today may be tomorrows technology for survival

[brichter]

I went to an advance auto supply it was free how can they do that for free.

Since they're a parts store, not a shop, they don't have any of the overhead a shop does. Nor is the pay they give their counterpeople anywhere near what the shop is paying their techs.

I'll bet they pulled a code and said a certain part was bad based on the code, without bothering to run any of the tests needed to verify the part was bad. They'll get lucky some of the time, but when it winds up being a wiring issue, like a bad ground somewhere or the PCM is bad, what will they say to you?

"Sorry, I guess that part wasn't bad. Take it to a shop and pay them to find out what's wrong and fix it." 

They won't do anything about the money you spent with them, either, because electrical parts aren't returnable, and they didn't charge you for the diagnostic. Just like a casino, you pays your money and you takes your chances.


Meanwhile, everybody is running to the auto parts store to fix their cars, and the honest shop owner is losing money and closing up for good. When you run across an issue the parts store can't figure out with a $60 scan tool in the parking lot, where will you go?

[CommTech]

I'm sorry - against my better judgment, I can't let this pass without comment.

Allowing the Government to get involved will only succeed in destroying these companies and pave the way for a Socialist Regime!
I am so sick of finding out how absolutely ignorant and destructive our so called representatives are to the very fabric of our Free market Capitalistic society!

You want Jobs created? You must LOWER tax's!!!  Business relocate to places were they can be more profitable. Places with the lowest possible tax base. Raising Tax's drives away business, and INCREASES Unemployment!
More Jobs mean Less Unemployment and MORE MONEY injected into the economy!
Eliminating the Capital Gains tax will also go a long way to help boost our economy.

It's not taxes that are causing the problem, least of all Capital Gains tax, the reduction of which has done a lot to make things worse. The problem was deregulating the financial markets and expecting the beneficiaries to behave with decency and restraint. What happened instead was they turned into a tank of pihranas, with junk bond kings like Milken creating money for leveraged hostile takeovers, the borrowed money being repaid by asset-stripping the victims and shutting them down. That was just after a time of rapid inflation that often made company assets like land and buildings worth more than 51% of their nominal share value. So companies became extremely nervous about falling stock prices, leading them to sell off assets themselves, close plants, reduce wages and workforces and export American jobs overseas to cheap labor areas. It also led to executives being paid mainly in stocks, just to make sure they concentrated on the important things first. What we've seen is the stock market double and double again - that's f*ing INFLATION, not wealth creation - while standards of living have fallen for nearly everyone. Manufacturing companies now employ less people than the government, and no company dares invest in anything long-term that threatens their quarterly profit figures.

It's not a financial bail-out we need to save our asses - it's manufacturing, which is true wealth creation. But we don't have either the plant we need, nor the skilled people to run it any more, and it will take years to restore it. If the markets won't invest for the long term, and we've seen that they won't, then we need to give them some encouragement, and I'm afraid the kind they need is a rope round their necks and a big stick behind them, with a few decaying corpses left hanging on the gallows as an example to the rest. And possibly some government investment, which does work when it's run by people who believe in it instead of by political appointees who hate everything it stands for. This country was never so rich and successful as it was in the 50s and 60s when the government was paying for cold-war related research into electronics and the space program. You're only able to use this forum today because US taxpayers paid for the fundamental technology behind computers and the internet. If you think the free market would have done that, you must be crazy. They would have looked at the investment required and the time to market and laughed.

I have no problem with the government investing in Research and Development projects like they did during the cold war. They did that to build up our Military advantage and we did benefit from the products and services that resulted from that research. I do have a problem when they get involved in and interfere with free market businesses. If Businesses produce a product that people want and can afford, then they will survive and thrive. If the businesses cannot turn a profit, then why should the tax payers be responsible for keeping them in business?
The fact is we now live in a Global economy.  The wonderful business models of the past that guaranteed you a good pension plan and life time health care cannot survive in today's global market. That is one of the major problems of the Big three US automakers. Because of all of the pension and health care benefits they pay their employees, they have to add another $2000 on average to the cost of each vehicle they make to cover those costs, and those cost just keep going up.  They simply cannot continue to offer affordable vehicles with those restrictions.
Throwing tax payer money at it will not help it. They need to file for bankruptcy so that those contracts can be destroyed and re-negotiated to keep them in business.

As far as US manufacturing jobs go ... The only ones that will survive in the long run are those that involve highly skilled labor. With other Countries manufacturing goods using very low paid labor, we cannot compete with that. Yeah, that sucks, but that is the world we all live in now. The US government has no control over the world market.

[CommTech]

I got this in an email and thought I'd post it here.
Thanks,
Wayne





> This puts a little different spin on what differentiates a domestic from
> an import.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> THE NORTH AMERICAN AUTO DEALERS AND MANUFACTURERS ARE IN  A DIFFICULT
> POSITION – THIS REPRESENTS OVER 3.5
> MILLION JOBS IN NORTH AMERICA …….IT IS TIME TO RALLY !
>
>
> LET EVERYONE KNOW
>
> For the record... Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11
>
> An interesting commentary...You might find this of interest:
>
> CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's
> contributions to the relief and recovery
> efforts in New York and Washington .
>
> The findings are as follows.....
>
> 1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions
> of the same number plus 10
> Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team
> services and office space to displaced
> government employees.
>
> 2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions
> of
> the sam e number and a fleet of
> vans, suv's, and trucks.
>
> 3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of
> the Sept. 11 attack.
>
> 4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the
> New York Police Dept.
>
> 5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation,
> funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and
> victims of the World Trade Centre
>
> 6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
>
> 7. Audi-Nothing.
>
> 8. BMW-Nothing.
>
> 9. Daewoo- Nothing.
>
> 10. Fiat-Nothing.
>
> 11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in
> August 2001
>
> 12. Isuzu- Nothing.
>
> 13. Mitsubishi-Nothing..
>
> 14. Nissan-Nothing.
>
> 15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche
> website.
>
> 16. Subaru- Nothing.
>
> 17. Suzuki- Nothing.
>
> 18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.
> Condolences posted on the website
>
> Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep
> this information in mind.
> You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by a North
> American-owned and / or North
> American based company.
> Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed
> nothing at all to the citizens of the
> United States ...
>
> It's OK for these companies to take money out of North America, but it is
> apparently not acceptable to return
> some in a time of crisis.
>
> I believe we should not forget things like this.  Say thank you in a way
> that gets their attention..
>
> BUY YOUR NEXT VEHICLE FROM GM, FORD OR CHRYSLER.
>

I have owned both domestic and Japanese vehicles over the years. There is major differences in the quality of both. Don't take my word for it, just look at the differences in reliability ratings in Consumers Report and other publications. Year after Year the foreign owned car companies always fair better in quality and reliability.
By the way ... I currently drive an American Made Car ... It's a Nissan! Proudly built by American workers in Tennessee! 

Happy Thanksgiving!!
 

[N8LHG]

Folks,

My first gut feeling about the foreign car companies "NOT" giving money into the American economy, or to assist with American interests during a catastrophe MAY be a myth. While I can not speak for most of them on that list, nor can I show any proof here. I lived about 30 miles from the Marysville Honda plants some years ago. I'm not sticking up for them, just feeling suspicious about the email stating that only American Auto Industry gave money, or contribute to the American community.

While Honda has a great many flaws, I was personally involved with some of the community happenings that Honda was putting money into, and contributing a great deal of resources to. They did, at the time I was involved, support at least, the local area during hard times, including giving money to the Marysville Red Cross during flooding in the area. It may not be much, but it meant a lot to Marysville during those times. It may not have been millions or billions, but they did seem to be very community conscious, and at the time, it surprised me. Honda was saying "What can we do to help" in that situation.

Mark

[a69mopar]

Don't confuse the Americian Honda employees with the corporation.  Most work forces took collections to raise funds to help. 

Thanks,
Wayne

[tacman]

Just got this in an email. It would not surprise me in the least! 

 Dan (tacman)


Congress at their best!

Subject: Why was AIG BAILED OUT

 
Remember when this economic crisis hit, and Congress let

Bear Sterns go under, pushed a bunch of forced marriages

between banks, etc.?

 Then they bailed out AIG.  At the time, I thought:

"That's strange. What does an insurance company

have to do with this crisis?"

 I think I just found the answer.  Among other things, AIG

INSURES THE PENSION TRUST OF THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS!!

 
No wonder they got bailed out right away! Heck with the

people, let's protect our future, said all our Senators

and Congressmen.  Nice to see where their loyalties lie!

 

[stayouttadabunker]

The whole thing just seemed a tad bit shady...

[Op-Bell]

There's a very good article about it in Rolling Stone this month, that names names and attaches blame. Seems like AIG was at the heart of it all, not that they were alone, but ... well, read it.

One thing that bothers me a lot is the emphasis on stopping the fall in stock prices. Now I know we've all got our 401Ks and stock investments and it would be nice to see the value restored, but - I don't know about the rest of you - I give having a job and income a somewhat higher priority. I get a newsletter from Gaming USA and there was one earlier this month that made me want to spit. I'll quote a bit -

The DJIA fell 300 points today, falling below 7,000 for the first time since 1997.   Is it too late for all U.S. citizens to demand a revote from Election Day.  The entire country can demand it on account of temporary insanity.   Nasdaq was down 55 points and gaming stocks were lower.   The big winner again was GCA, up 13.2%.   MCRI was the big loser, down 24%.  WYNN was down 15.8%, MGM was down 12.9% and BYD was down 11.1%.    An article in the LV Review Journal questioned whether or not there needs to be some casino closing.   At this point there shouldn’t even be a question that there needs to be a significant reduction in gaming capacity in certain areas.   The article discussed how Harrah’s may be closing the Imperial Palace but it was denied by a Harrah’s representative.

With the possible exception of MGM, most casinos are still doing better than break even - the problem is that they aren't meeting Wall Street analysts' profit forecasts, resulting in lower stock prices. What this c***sucker is saying is that in order to protect his stock investments, casinos and suppliers need to throw thousands of ordinary people out of work. You'd think that a stock analyst in the gaming business would understand better than the average investor speculator that when you gamble on something and lose, it's lost. You don't start bleating about how unfair it is and demand your money back from the house at other peoples' expense. It's too bad we don't have real men running the casinos like in former days, who could send other people (the kind played so well by Joe Pesci) to have a quiet word with these Wall Street types and convince them of their place in the greater scheme of things.

[jay]

GEICO Insurance company was a spin off of the goverment when they put up their insurance to open bid to save money.
GEICO = Goverment Employee Insurance COmpany.
Goverment sure saved money by spinning this off and giving AIG the program..... UGH !