Are S2000's dissapearing from casinos?

[jdkmunch]

On Monday I went to Mohegan Sun  - here in the north east.   they have THOUSANDS  of S2000 machines -

I hadn't been there in a while and couldn't believe how many there were.       If they unload there old slots I think the price of an S2000 would drop to a few hundred bucks. 

Oddly this casino doesn't have that many wms machines - I counted only 50 or so. 

[reho33]

In PA they have electronic "21" that is a video of a pretty girls dealing the cards, can't count cards, but you can't cheat either. PA should have table games by fall..........

[StatFreak]

In PA they have electronic "21" that is a video of a pretty girls dealing the cards, can't count cards, but you can't cheat either. PA should have table games by fall..........

They are in Vegas/Laughlin as well. Actually, the fine print on the "stations" that I saw states that the machine deals from a six-deck shoe and there is an indication of when the cards are shuffled (indicating that they are not shuffled for every hand) and I could see other player's cards, so it is possible to count. However, I was suspicious of the machine, since it could easily count cards with me and then report me to the boys in the back if my bets and play changes tracked with the count. Any bets as to whether or not these machines do that, and if that would be considered legal?


<PS> I suppose that I ought to try it one of these days with no player tracking card and use a really big bet spread (the machine allows a good range of bets) and see if or how long it takes for the goon squad to show up behind my chair. All they can do is ask me to leave.. or back room me and make empty threats. 

[StatFreak]

There's nothing illegal about counting cards

It's illegal if you use a computer or other device to help you. They call it a "cheating device" and you'll spend the night in jail. But that being the case, if an electronic counter is a cheating device on one side of the table, so it should be on both. The complaint in Allen v. Nevada was spot-on. I wonder what was the outcome of the case? Just getting rid of Mindplay was probably enough of a triumph.

<edit> the casino down the road from me that I shall not name didn't need Mindplay. They had a perfect manual method. Every time I started gaining a little ground at Blackjack, they changed the dealer. It worked every time.

Actually, if you're caught using a physical cheating device in Nevada it's a felony, so you'd be spending more than a night in jail.

Op-Bell, regarding that dealer change at the casino down the road, is your implication that they were bringing in a cheating dealer?

I experienced that in Reno 20 years ago and learned to quickly leave or change tables (just to f$#% with them and see how long it would take them to "maneuver" that same dealer to my new table). But to be honest, I haven't seen that happen in at least a decade. Of course, it's certainly possible that I'm not as observant as I used to be.

There was one time in Tahoe where I had been doing well, and I saw the pit boss off to the left look at my chip pile, look back at his clipboard, then back at my chips, then back to the clipboard, and two minutes later a new dealer showed up at my table to replace the dealer that had just taken over five minutes earlier. I lost seven hands in a row and left. Coincidence?...
 
 

[stayouttadabunker]

THAT'S called "the old switcheroo"...!!! 

[Super Joker]

That'd require a trip in a time machine, too, as they're both gone.   

LOL, yeah, I know, that's why I mentioned them. Sad thing is, I've stayed at many of the places that are now gone.

Regarding dealers counting - was at the Fitz in Reno years ago, and the wife decided she was in a blackjack mood. Sat down at a $2 table, and of course, my wife was keeping the play rather slow, as she was asking questions and stuff. After awhile, the dealer started getting irritated, and when she was taking what he thought was too long, he said " you got a 5" - and it was a face down card. I caught it, no one else did, and when the hand was done I suggested that we go find her some slots, and we both left.

[Op-Bell]

Op-Bell, regarding that dealer change at the casino down the road, is your implication that they were bringing in a cheating dealer?

If I were to say that, it might be considered a libel. But considering it was a single-deck game and hand-dealt, and it happened consistently... One time, as I left the table after being cleaned out, one of the other players said "I've been watching your play, and you did everything right!" Seriously, how can you watch one particular dealer hit garbage like 14 or 15 and make 20 or 21 time after time, without you start to wonder?

As for the electronic 21 games, I won't go near them. I was once developing an electronic 21 for a company now out of business and they asked me to include a "percentage" feature. It was quite simple - if the game's hold percentage was below 5%, the electronic dealer was not allowed to bust. If it drew a bust card it silently discarded it and drew another. The gaffe would be completely invisible to players, except that they would lose too often if they stood on a low hand to the dealer's low card. I refused and never completed the job. I was afraid if I did, I might have problems later with the GCB that would make me unemployable in Nevada. I had other adventures with that company... Like the time two FBI agents showed up to interview me about one of the jobs I was doing for them. There was no wrong-doing, they were investigating a bogus tip from a competitor, but that kind of thing acts like a cold shower on one's motivation.

[StatFreak]

Op-Bell, regarding that dealer change at the casino down the road, is your implication that they were bringing in a cheating dealer?

If I were to say that, it might be considered a libel. But considering it was a single-deck game and hand-dealt, and it happened consistently... One time, as I left the table after being cleaned out, one of the other players said "I've been watching your play, and you did everything right!" Seriously, how can you watch one particular dealer hit garbage like 14 or 15 and make 20 or 21 time after time, without you start to wonder?

As for the electronic 21 games, I won't go near them. I was once developing an electronic 21 for a company now out of business and they asked me to include a "percentage" feature. It was quite simple - if the game's hold percentage was below 5%, the electronic dealer was not allowed to bust. If it drew a bust card it silently discarded it and drew another. The gaffe would be completely invisible to players, except that they would lose too often if they stood on a low hand to the dealer's low card. I refused and never completed the job. I was afraid if I did, I might have problems later with the GCB that would make me unemployable in Nevada. I had other adventures with that company... Like the time two FBI agents showed up to interview me about one of the jobs I was doing for them. There was no wrong-doing, they were investigating a bogus tip from a competitor, but that kind of thing acts like a cold shower on one's motivation.

It wouldn't really be libel, since you didn't mention any names -- just as I didn't.

As far as the electronic 21 games that I've seen currently installed, I have to wonder if a gaff like that could get past the NGC testers in today's climate? I'm sure that such a machine could be set up in other parts of the world.

It would be no different from a video poker gaff that prevented players from getting a Royal Flush. It also might be considered acceptable for non-class III devices such as lottery terminals and some bartop machines where they are rigged to govern the payout and are not truly random.

I'm curious as to your thoughts about these things counting cards and reporting advantage players.

<ADD> Maybe the pretty girl starts scowling at you and then gets replaced with an ugly old hag who deals seconds?  
Virtual bouncers??  

[Op-Bell]

That 21 game wasn't for one of the tightly regulated jurisdictions. But even if it was, a lot would depend on whether the game was classed as an electronic version of a casino table game, in which case it would have to emulate it accurately and play by the same rules, or if it was considered to be an electronic game - a slot machine - that just happened to look like a table game but would be allowed to play with hold percentages like a slot machine. The answer would lie in the small print and innocuous-looking legal phrases in the regulations. Don't risk it.

[knagl]

I was once developing an electronic 21 for a company now out of business and they asked me to include a "percentage" feature. It was quite simple - if the game's hold percentage was below 5%, the electronic dealer was not allowed to bust. If it drew a bust card it silently discarded it and drew another. The gaffe would be completely invisible to players, except that they would lose too often if they stood on a low hand to the dealer's low card.

There was an online casino doing just that -- check out this link for some interesting reading.

[jay]

It was my understanding that card counting is NOT illegal.
I had been told that it is the property managers discretion as to whom they let into their establishments and can exclude anyone for any reason.
So a card counter is excluded because the casino wants them gone and there is no recourse such as requiring a burden of proof.

I was talking to a couple of local dealers about counting cards and a few count cards just to help them pass the time.
Of course following standard dealer rules this is just about exercising the brain and not cheating players.

[reho33]

But I don't understand...........if the casino has a built in edge % for the game, why would they have to "cheat", to maximize the edge???