An Error 21 Coin in Optic problem

[talon2000]

So I was occasionally getting an error 21, and now it's constant.

I did a self test 10-0 through 12-0. 10 comes up as a 10-1, the others work fine. Thinking it was a problem with either the emitters, or receivers I did a quick visual with a video camera to confirm the emitters were indeed working. I then checked the voltage on each receiver. Looks like Q1 is the one giving me problems. So as a quick test I swapped Q1, with Q3. The problem didn't follow. I've read on the forums that Q2 can cause problems. Since Q1 is the only optic set that uses Q2 that might be the problem?

Wondering if removing Q2 will correct the problem.

Thanks,

Kevin

[talon2000]

Well since it didn't seem detrimental to remove Q2 I did. Now 10 does toggle from 1-0 but it always comes up with a 1 instead of a zero and toggles to 0 is that correct?

[stayouttadabunker]

I saw your earlier post but I didn't want to recommend removing the Q2.
Best way to check is to drop a coin through it and see if it accepts?
The coin optics cards have to try and send a credit signal back to the MPU.

[talon2000]

Yep that seems to have taken care of the problem. Put a couple of qtrs in, and did a reset. Now the extra coin works too.

[stayouttadabunker]

Good Job! 
Please let us know if the error comes back...

[talon2000]

Spoke to soon. 21 is back.

Bummer

[stayouttadabunker]

There's a guy on fleabay...mocha I think his name is...he sells coin-in optic boards.
Or place an ad in the "Classifieds" section of NLG and hopefully a vendor will spot your needs.
I think yours is finished.
My guess is that the IC components have lost their values...what particular components
need replacement - is beyond my scope.
I never went out and bought a full scale test comparitor stations - my guess
is those units cost a pretty penny.

[TZtech]

Hi

On the PE platform they are all 1 and toggle to zero. Pretty sure it should display the same way on the S+ (Dont have one here to confirm) - Anyways when these things die they normally die completely. Intermittent faults normally due to mechanical issues. Does the 21 appear in idle mode or when feeding coins. If when feeding coins wou may have  the wrong coin "throat" for the diverter (Ie the channel may be to wide and  coin is not blocking optic path). Also check that both side of board are secure on assembly and check all connector for stretched pins.

Ian

[talon2000]

Well I just went back and tested.
10-1 toggles to 0
11-1 doesn't toggle now.
and now 12 starts with 1 and toggles to 0

21 appears after opening and closing the door. so it could be a wiring harness problem.
The diverter is the correct size, and I'm sliding a piece of cardboard to  test the individual ir receivers. 

Harness or flakey TTL on the optic board.

[Jim]

when you get into that test all three ,10,11 12 should be a "1", when you run the piece of cardboard thru the optic for each one it should toggle from 1 to 0. If it does this, then the optic is doing what it should be doing. test 11 will also test the tiny white switch on that optic board.

DS1,DS2 ans DS3 are IR emitters. Q-1,Q-2 and Q-3 are their respective receivers, I hope you did not remove Q-2 the receiver, then Test #11 won't work.

There is a surface mount transistor, on early version boards it was Q-2, on later boards it was Q-4, this would short and prevent theoptics from working, for home use this was not necessary , so removing it would fix the optics and the game would work fine.

I would check all these and then wiggle the connector to the optic board sometimes this will create an intermittent condition, also check the pins where the plug from the coin in assembly mates with the door harness, sometimes they get pushed back and need to be reseated.

If your machine has a bill acceptor and you have the fold down belly door,you can open this and wiggle your connectors with the door closed to see if you can cause it to fail, and see what is causing the problem. Last case , you can remove the entire assembly, plug it in and have the whole assembly in your hand outside of the machine,with the door closed and troubleshoot according.

Jim 

[talon2000]

when you get into that test all three ,10,11 12 should be a "1", when you run the piece of cardboard thru the optic for each one it should toggle from 1 to 0. If it does this, then the optic is doing what it should be doing. test 11 will also test the tiny white switch on that optic board.

They are all currently 1, 10 and 12 will toggle. 11 doesn't. Previous 10 would not. I had swapped the #10 and 11 receiver previously to see if the problem followed, and it didn't at the time. So I'm thinking it's a flakey receiver now. (The Original #10 which is now 11.)

DS1,DS2 ans DS3 are IR emitters. Q-1,Q-2 and Q-3 are their respective receivers, I hope you did not remove Q-2 the receiver, then Test #11 won't work.

I didn't

There is a surface mount transistor, on early version boards it was Q-2, on later boards it was Q-4, this would short and prevent theoptics from working, for home use this was not necessary , so removing it would fix the optics and the game would work fine.

I have an earlier board, with Q2 (3094 IIRC) It's been desoldered, and the problem went away, then re-appeared on test 11. Which is why I'm now thinking it's a Bad receiver. Just don't have another receiver to replace it with just yet. I'll get one, and see if this corrects the problem. It was late last night, and I didn't think about the previous IRR swap.

[talon2000]

Replaced the offending Q3 with a PT501A and all is good. Has been working flawlessly for the past 24 hours.

[stayouttadabunker]

Just to clarify...The "Q3" you replaced...Was it the surface mount transistor or the receiver optic?
My second question would then be>>How did you figure this out?
I'm trying to write up a workbench troubleshooting sheet for these optics..

At the same time, I've directed another bench tech to this topic to help sort out some of my questions.

[jay]

Cutting the lead on Q4 was a common hack when swapping a coin comparitor for a non powered imonex.
You also had to then wire tie the coin rake into position as now there is nothing to trigger the solinoid to hold it into an acceptace position.

I have usually found that on machines that have had this modification,  that the solinoid was usually defective and perhaps the catalyst for the mod.

For the cost of a comparitor and optics I would rather replace than fix.

[stayouttadabunker]

For those wondering what Talon 2000 replaced...it was this>>>

http://datasheet.octopart.com/PT501A-Sharp-Microelectronics-datasheet-108791.pdf