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Hey guys,  I have an IGT S+ that is accepting all coins as credits.  It's a .25 but accepts nickles and dimes as credits and drops them in the hopper.  I've already switched the comparator out with one from a working machine.  The new comparator does the same thing and my comparator works just fine in the other machine.  Not sure what to try next?  Thanks

I would check your coin diverter solenoid that is under your coin comparitor. It sounds like it is stuck and letting all the coins go through into the hopper and not diverting the coins it should.

Isn't the only "diverter" befor the optics the rake on the back of the comparator?  It's working fine because it rejects or diverts coins for every other reason it should.  E.g when three credits have been bet, the power is off, the wheels are spinning or when the comparators unplugged.

Problem has to be the rake is open at all times.   http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=profile;u=209;sa=showPosts

I ran the harness for the comparator out the open front glass and closed the door.  I watched the rake pop open and stay open as soon as the machine was ready to go.  Put a dollar in the BV and hit the bet one credit button 3 times and the rake closes.  While the reels are spinning the rake is closed.  Door open rake is closed.  Any time the machine is ready to accept coins the rake opens.

Remove the comparator from the machine and hold it with the sample coin facing you. The rake should be closed, drop in any size coin and watch it's path of travel. It will come out of the bottom of comparator on the right side and go to the tray.  Now  holding the rake open drop another coin in and it will come out the left side and go to the coin optics/ hopper.

What you have described on your machine is the rake is working backwards. The only thing I can think that would cause this is the two Gray wires on the comparator have been reversed. try turning the plug and see what happens.

did you swap the entire cc/coin optic unit from one machine to the other?  this would establish if the problem is in that unit or elsewhere.

what you described was backwards from the way it should work.  Is the wiring for the cc plug good?  Pins 1 ans 3 should have a red wire loop on them.  pin 2 is a purple wire (sense line from optics) pin 4 yellow wire (24vac in)  pin5 n/c/,  pin 6  black (ground).

Jim
 

I swapped the coin comparator assembly, not the optics mounted below it.  I actually put two comparators it, only to have it do the same thing.  I checked the comparator plug and it is wired just as you described.  Also guys, this machine worked fine for years, this just happend out of nowhere.  No one has been in the machine to swap any wires.  Thanks

It only takes five minutes to swap out the entire unit. two screws at the top , and unplug and remove.  you can operate the whole unit outside the machine as you did for the cc.  the only way to rule out what the problem, is to swap the unit, optics plug etc.

then you will know with out a doubt where the problem is.

What type of optics do you have?  If the wiring is good and the cc is good then logically it would seem that the optics are the problem.

How do I identify what type of optics I have.  Right now I'm unable to swap the optics as the machine I swapped the cc with belonged to a dealer i took my machine to in another town.  Thanks

Take a picture of it and we will tell you exactly what it is.
Also, it doesn't really matter if the machine accepts all coins as credits for home use.
I'd be mad if it DIDN'T accept coins....lol

If the optics are indeed bad, most are surface mounted electronics, you are probably going to have to replace them
. So ....  take a picture of the optics in your machine, so we can see what type it is   or....    if its a ten pin plug on the optics ,, order that style.

the only wire that makes a difference in this case is the purple sense wire,  you can remove it from the plug, (use an exacto knife to depress the retaining tab and pull it out from the housing)  and see if the unit will function normally. you might get a code 21, but lets see if we can get the cc to work as it should.

Is the problem that big of a concern??   who is going to put pennies and nickles into a machine that is set up for quarters? 99% of the people who use these machines in a home environment  use the coins provided by the owner.  

I would like to add that I just physically changed the 2 gray wires in
the Molex connector on my coin comparator to see what would happen right?  :79-

I must report that there's absolutely no change and the rake functions
as it properly should - no matter which way the two gray wires are configured.

In other words, the rake solenoid remained un-energized until...
the moment I dropped a coin through it.
When I dropped a coin thru - the rake opened momentarily to allow
the good coin to fall through.
This is the way a rake should work...

I'm suspecting a bad diode or switch triac on the MPU at this time since he's already tried another CC ?
It's not allowing the rake's solenoid to de-energize?
Does the questionable CC work in a known good machine?

I'll bet I can call this in one word: Kids.  :200- :97- :72-

It is a tin pin plug for sure.  The problem is not a big concern, this machine is for personal use.  Who puts nickles and dime in the machine?  Kids and drunks I presume, I tried the honor system but it didn't work.  My problem isn't the bad coins going in, it's the bad coins jamming the hopper and tearing up the hopper knife.  

Yes it does

could you remove the black cover from the optics , it slides up and off the optic, so we could see the circuits.

I removed the purple wire from the cc plug.  No change in the comparator's action , just a 21 code when the coin went threw the optics.

 :103-  this makes no sense at all. the reason I make this statment!  in effect we have removed all inter-action between the optics and the cc. we only have the red loop hooked up , the ground (black) and the yellow ( 24vac). if you closed the door and ran the connector out thru the open belly  you should be able to test this as a free standing device. Meaning: when you put a coin in that matches the sample coin it should open the rake allow the coin to pass and de-energize. this is how you can normally test a cc out of the machine. apply 24vac to it and watch it operate. 

could the sensitivity adjustment have any bearing on this ? it should be adjusted full ccw.

WELLMAN  I need to ask you a dumb question. Are we on the same page as to what is open or closed in regards to the rake?  I'm attaching a Pic. of a different CC than you have, but the rake is in what we call the closed position.

Buzz, yes my unit is in closed position until its ready to accept coins, then it jumps open and stays there.  I can even feel a little buzz from it.

Jim, something in the machine is sending the cc a signal or aleast cutting the power to the cc.  Because right now I have the purple wire disconnected.  When I load credits with the BV, then press the bet one credit button three times so that the game is no longer expecting coins, boom the rake closes and all coins are now rejected to the tray.  And this is not intermittent, if the deposit coin light is on, the all coins go in the hopper.  Deposit coin light is out, they go to the tray.

If you've previously pressed a button on the deck to add credits (Bet One Credit or Max Bet buttons)
from the credit display meter, the rake will indeed remain closed until you complete the game
with the credits you've already added.
That is normal operation.

It will not accept any more coins through the coin-In optics because
it already has credits in the system ready to play the game.
Therefore, the comparator rake will stay closed and all coins will drop to the tray.

When the game is complete, the comparator rake will be closed until you drop a coin or 2 two - at that point,
the rake will momentarily open allowing the good coins to pass through the entire coin mech system
and drop either into the tray or the drop box depending on how many coins are in the hopper.

However, if you've only added let's say 2 credits from the credit display meter using the Bet One Credit button
and it's a 3 coin game - the comparator rake should allow you to add 1 more credit only
through the coin mech system to complete the Max bet allowed.

But the rake will still normally be closed (even if another coin can be inserted) unless it has just tested a coin and it passes the test, right?

Someone correct if I'm wrong. The rake always remains in the closed position, always. The only thing controlling the rake is the comparator. The MPU, the coin optics, the hopper, have nothing to do with the operation of the rake. But are we forgetting that little bitty spring that keeps the rake closed? Wellman did state that this CC did work in another machine. I think it needs tested again.
The only other thing I can think of is test the ground wire where it goes into the comparator. A bad ground can cause all kinds of funny things.

I will read the responce from the Command center in about 3 1/2 hours.

Buzz you are correct.  the rake is only controlled by the action of the cc.  the rake is ALWAYS closed, with power applied to it and with no power to it. the only time the rake is ever open is when a coin has been verified as a good coin. then the rake pulses open for a split second to allow that coin to pass. then it closes again. by closing ,I mean the tines of the rake are inside the cc blocking the path of anything put into the cc and rejecting it.

I asked you to preform the stand alone test of the cc. what were the results? this will tell us if the cc is working as it should. to do this: remove cc of its holder, open bellydoor, extend the cc wire harness out to the cc and plug it in,  this is what should occur, the led should be off, the rake coil should be  de-energized ,so the rake should be inside the cc. close door,  after machine does its internal diagnostics it should be ready to play, led on the cc should be on, rake still inside the cc. insert a coin onto the cc, it should accept it . you will see the rake open for a brief time and allow the coin to pass and then close again. this will happen as many times as you wish to test it. the machine has no idea what you are doing so it should remain in the idle mode.

try this and report back.
Jim 

Jim, here are the result of the stand alone test.  Every thing goes as you describes until the machine gets ready to play.  As soon as it's ready to play the rake coil energizes, the rake opens and stays open.  The LED flashes faintly and the goes off and stays off.  Same result with and without the purple wire.

Buzz, checked the spring, all looks good.  As far as the test of my comparator in another machine and vise versa, I have thought back on that now that you guys have enlightened me on how things are suppose to work.  The test consisted of dealer swapping out the comparators and dropping a couple quarters an nickles through them.  He was not reel keen on me getting in there with him.  I could only take his word that they were good comparators and we were only checking to see if the machine still accepted nickles.  I didn't know at the time to check the rake positions during the differant stages.  I'll check the ground in alittle bit so we can eliminate that.  Thanks Guys

Yes...Exactly knagl !
Like Jim and Buzz says above - the rake is always normally closed.
It will open again, if the last coin needed to complete the MAX bet - is good.
But once the MAX bet has been reached, it will never open again until the game is played.

The only other time I can think of the rake opening again, to accept further good coins,
is when you have a "Montana Credits" SP chip installed...

If that is the case then.... I would say your cc is bad.  the led is a indicator that the unit is receiving 24vac. it should be on bright and solid. if you have a way to measure the voltage across the black and yellow wires and it measures 24vac, and the led continues to be dim and flicker then the cc is bad. More than likely  C-1  could be bad.  Again  if you have a meter, measure the dc voltage across C-1..its a 220 microfarad cap rated at 35vdc..   you should measure around 19 vdc. you have to remove the cc circuit board cover to access C-1.

Jim

Should the light on the comparator be on after the maximum number of coins have been accepted by the machine, or would that go off to inhibit the comparator from accepting further coins until after the spin is completed?

WELLMAN: Does your comparator accept pennies as the first two coins, or does it correctly reject those?

No, the CC light goes off as soon as you've reached the max for the game.
(On the flip side, it stays on continuously when the SP1137 "Montana Chip" is installed. It only
goes off when the coin credit limit is reached)

If you peer through the main door lock hole on an S+, you can see the coin comparator
light flicker as a coin is dropped through it.
You will also see the light go out when the max bet in coins is reached.

However, if you have a lock installed - you can't see anything.... :72-

Accepts Pennies, wooden nickles, paper clips...lol

One thing for sure, the sensitivity adjustment doesn't do beans.
I dare you to turn that dial all the way clockwise and drop a coin... :72-
If it goes into the coin tray - it works.

Okay, so to be clear, but I think I understand what you're saying now, but please correct me if any of this is wrong:

- When you attempted to test the comparator with Jim's stand-alone test, you were unable to because the rake was constantly in the "open" position when the door was closed and the machine should have been ready to accept coins (thus any coin inserted would fall right past the rake because it was open).

- With the door open, the LED on the comparator is off and the rake is closed

- When you close the door, the reels give their "maiden spin" and the LED comes on briefly and then flickers off.  At the same time, the rake locks into the "open" position, allowing anything inserted to fall past it

Is all of that correct?  If not, please clarify as to what is wrong.

All correct

Do you have a known good MPU board (perhaps from one of your other machines) you can swap into the problem child machine to see if the issue stays with the machine or follows the board?

knowing if you are getting 24 vac to the cc is the key here.  I have to ASSuME  that it is ,because the cc rake coil  is being energized so it can pull the rake into the constant open position. why the led goes off is ???   the MPU board supplies the signal to the cc. it is called "lockout"  and is applied via the yellow wire. the black wire has 24vac applied constantly,  so when both are present the cc has 24vac applied to it to operate.  that's why when the door is open you don't get the signal and the led is off, when the door is closed you get the signal and the led is on. 

Bunker, or anyone else:  If you want to see the coin in assembly work, you can remove it from the machine, open the belly door, plug it in , and watch it work with the door closed.you will see the led come on and go off as the machine goes thru its cycles, you will see the cc work as it accepts and rejects coins.

It still doesn't make sense why the rake is out all the time, the machine has no control over it . All the machine does is apply power to turn it on, the rest is up to the cc to do its job.


Jim

I agree with you Jim.
I just happen to have a Frankenstein test machine which
allows me to work the comparator any way I want.
Not many homeowners have this set-up I have available for my use.

I don't normally peer in thru the lock hole to see things working...lol
I always forget to mention that it's really very easy to look at the comparator from the
belly door but some machines actually do not have a belly door that opens.
I've seen many S+'s that have solid doors that do not open.

Anyways, the most perplexing part of this thread is why
the coin comparator rake stays open all the time?
That's a very strange rake behavior I've never ever seen before.
Would the sample coin electronic field copper element have
anything to do with the rake being open all the time?

I'd have to go back into the posts on this thread to see
if he tried this coin comparator in a known "good" machine yet to observe the rake behavior...

Jim I'm getting 13vac to the black wire at all time and 12 from the yellow when the machine is ready and 13 from the yellow when it is not.  And if I take the sample coin out the led lights up?

No I don't own another S+

Oh.  I thought you had said earlier that you had swapped this comparator into another machine and it worked properly in the other machine.  Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

I think he did swap it but at the dealer's place?
Anyways, I find this statement below utterly unbelievable! >>>

"...if I take the sample coin out the led lights up?"

I wish I had an S+ by my side to try this...
Could you try this & let us know what happens, knagl?
I find it amazing that just removing the sample coin would turn ON  the coin comparator??? :5-

I never said it turned "on" the comparator.  There had been questions earlier about if my led lights up and it normally doesn't.  How ever today, while the machine was in ready mode, I took out the sample coin and the LED comes on.  Put a sample coin back in and the light goes off.

Did you do this with the door open or closed?

Closed

Okay... closed, but with the comparator sticking outta the belly door right?
The light should be "ON" and flickers "Off" briefly as a coin falls through it.
Pulling the sample coin out could turn the LED off rendering the unit useless
until you put the sample coin back in.
Then the LED should turn back "On" as normal.

Why your CC acts opposite of a normal one is weird.

Why?
Because when a CC is in a ready-mode machine and sticking out of the belly door in your hand
with the door latch closed and the door optics seeing eye-to-eye, the LED should be "On"
and the rake should be in the "Closed" position.

There's something wrong with either your coin comparator or your MPU.

What are you using as a sample coin?

Tried them all

Okay, in your very 1st post, you said the comparator works fine in another machine.
If I were you,
I'd start looking around for a new MPU board because yours is acting screwy.
They are not expensive!
Look at it this way...47 posts from S+ guys and it's still not working.
Go shopping!

here's an idea where to get them or place an ad in the Classifieds section of NLG for your needs>>>


http://cgi.ebay.com/IGT-S-PLUS-SLOT-MACHINE-MPU-CPU-BOARD-/120619800375?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c15801737 (http://cgi.ebay.com/IGT-S-PLUS-SLOT-MACHINE-MPU-CPU-BOARD-/120619800375?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c15801737)

Are all MPU Boards the same for all S+ machine?

Yours has the blue volume knob on top?
If so, it's a 10MHz board.
Those without - are 16MHz.

Thanks

You're welcome.
If you look closely at the crystals...you'll see the MHz number printed on them.
There's usually at least two silver crystals on an MPU board.

with the door closed and ready to play: measure the ac voltage at the cc plug. put the leads on the black and yellow wires. you should read 24vac.

Have you inspected and looked at all the plugs and wiring on the cc? if you bang on the cc while it is ready , does the led come on and go off?
 have you removed the four screws and taken off the cover to the cc and checked the voltage across C-1.  its a DC voltage. 19vdc.

I still think you cc is toast.
Good luck in your endeavors!

Jim

I've inspected the wires and plugs.  black and yellow = 26vac.  Bang on the cc produces no action from the led.  As far as c-1 I'm not sure waht you mean by across c-1 but with one lead on c-1 and one on a ground I get 8vdc.

C-1  is the large electroltic cap mounted on the cc board. its the largest cap on the board. across it  means: one lead on the minus side of the cap (black lead), the other side on the Plus side of the cap (red lead).  you should measure 19 vdc .  If not then the cap is bad, or some thing is pulling down the 19vdc.

That cap going bad is a very common problem with that unit.  I think you may have found your problem.


Jim

There's so many revisions of that board Jim.
Are the caps the same specs for these boards?
I'm thinking of picking up a few caps to see if I can get some life back into them.
I have a few S+ 16D CC's with acceptance problems.
 

Bunker every one I've looked at were 220uf 35V

Yes...I agree with you Buzz... :89-
I just ordered a few caps to try on some of my old ones.
Thanks for helping me verify it!  :3-

That's strange that they would leave out the "C1" on this list though...>>>

http://www.happcontrols.com/gaming/coin_comp/63011000.htm (http://www.happcontrols.com/gaming/coin_comp/63011000.htm)

Look at the price for the test stand.... :72- >>>

http://www.happcontrols.com/gaming/coin_comp/35049900.htm (http://www.happcontrols.com/gaming/coin_comp/35049900.htm)

Bunker All of them on ebay have the leads coming out of one end.  They will work, just not as pretty looking as the ones with the leads out of each end. I bought 25 with shipping for eight bucks. I managed to get 4 out of 8 working.

That's pretty good work Buzz!  :89-
That's 4 CC's you don't have to throw in the trash!  :71-

Don't count out the other four yet..  :79-

Buzz has a knack for fixing things.

Mark  I have a system, first time one won't work I use a Sharpie and put a ? mark on it. Second time it doesn't work I mark it BAD, third time I mark it NFG.  But I still won't S**t can it, maybe a magic cure will be discovered!!

haha! I've seen those initials before... :72-