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Hey guys, it's my turn to ask for help with my Bally EM. :96-

First, the machine had been sitting for a few months before this problem arose, so I naturally suspect a frozen relay or bad contacts on some blade switch or another. Second, there are no coins in the hopper.

The problem started when I turned the machine on to check something when responding to a post a while back. I set up a payout and manually activated the coin out lever on the hopper until the payout had been reached, but the hopper failed to turn off.

Details:
The machine still functions perfectly other than the hopper motor refusing to turn off (no pesky coins coming out, since it's empty.) I can coin up the machine to any cm that I wish. I can pull the handle and play it. If I win, the payout circuits all function as they should – the bell rings, the coin out mech on the hopper advances the cm and coin payout units, the LED counter advances, then the bell stops and the winner paid lamp lights when the correct number of coins has been paid. The hopper payout mech does not advance the payout counter once the winner paid has been satisfied (machine idle mode) or on a losing payout.

The multiplier relay resets upon next coin, the winner paid goes out, the LED resets and and the coin payout counter resets upon pulling the handle...   but the damned hopper motor won't turn off. (Continuous AC from ??)


I checked the relay on the hopper and it seems to be moving freely. It's hard to tell if it engages or not while in the machine. The blades on the hopper and the reel mech all seem to be okay and I played a few dozen quick games to clear out the cobwebs, as it were.

Important snag: The machine was modified (by LA Slots before purchase) to pay out all wins (1000 coins max), so the safety timeout relay doesn't time out. It can be tripped and does cut power to the machine when it is tripped (not bypassed), but it was somehow adjusted for infinite hopper payouts. The JP reset lock has been disconnected and Larry obviously did whatever was necessary to make this mod work. I really don't know what that entailed.

I've had the machine for about 15 years and never had a problem (other than those fixed by simple cleaning, lubing, etc.)

Stat :31-

NO NOT ALLOWED!!!! :81- :81- :81- :262- :262- :262-  (Can you at least see the glow???)
 :208- :208- :208-
I can't help you other than this shameless bump! :263- :263- :263-

CH :95-

Someone help him since he is always trying to help others! :244-

No glow. I don't do IE.  :81-  :30- :72- :72- :72-

 :263-    Up here (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=14483.msg123920#msg123920).

The main question is where is the continuous voltage to the hopper motor coming from?

Stat.   long story short, when a win is detected, the payout relay coil is energized , this in turn closes the two parallel switches on that payout relay unit and put the hot side of 115vac to the motor. the common side is always on the other side of the motor.

In theory when the payout is complete, the common side is removed from the payout coil ( through the action of the wiper arms falling off the foil run for that hit)  and the coil is de-enegerized and the switches open and turn off the motor.

the only thing I could suggest: check the circuit that is a parallel circuit to the reel and hopper payout circuit. its supposed to remove the arc when the wiper arm falls off the foil run. it consists of two sets of switches, one on the payout relay switch, the other is the payout counter step-up arm switch. I would lean toward the payout relay switch, if this stays closed, it could back feed  the common through the carry over circuit. I guess you could put a piece of paper on the carry over traces and that would eliminate that as a cause.

Jim 

Thanks, Jim. I'll take a look, try your suggestion and let you know.

Jim, sorry for not getting back to you on this sooner.

Unfortunately, the problem still remains. I'm not very good at tracing wires in these machines. :60-

The coin payout counter mech in this machine is completely separate from the hopper. It sits on the back right side bottom of the machine and plugs into two Molex connectors which join the main cable of wires going to the hopper and hopper cutoff timer. I tried the paper insulators first, then completely disconnected the counter, and the hopper still runs when power is applied to the machine.

There is a plastic covered relay at the bottom front of the hopper frame. I tried removing that for giggles, not really expecting the hopper to run without it, but just to see what would happen. Well, the hopper ran without it. The two sets of blade switches on the hopper are mounted at the back, making it impossible to see what they are doing or to mess with them at all when the hopper is in the machine. Their mechanical function seems okay.

I tested all of the blades for continuity at the back of the tabs (where the wires connect) and they all make contact when they are supposed to and break contact when they are supposed to with one exception, which I circled in the picture. There is nothing physically wrong with the blades or the contact, only that the two tabs still have continuity when the contacts are physically separated. This might be normal.

My pdf manual doesn't have any schematics and has no information about the connections or voltages on the large beau plug that the hopper connects to, so I guess I'll have to unwrap all of the wires in the main cable behind the hopper and start trying to figure out which ones carry the 110vac.

more..

I had another thought and tried powering the machine with the entire reel mech removed... and the hopper still runs. :8-

It almost seems to me that it's being fed directly from the transformer or line in, but how would such a short be possible?

Have you tried slipping a piece of paper between them to see what happens?

if I understand the problem - hopper keeps running even without the reel mechanism?   if so you have a short in the cabinet - try isolating the payout unit - put paper under it - check the contacts in the back of the payout unit (have grey/black  grey/yellow wires)  make sure they are OPEN and not making contact with any metal

The problem is that I don't know whether those two coils are supposed to be energized or not. If you are referring to the specific blade I circled, it separates fine. There is electrical conductivity between the two blades even when that particular blade switch contact is broken. This could be a problem or not. There are other blades which are soldered together via jumper wires, and in this case the connectivity has to be coming from the wiring or another bad component on the hopper, so it depends on if this is by design or not.

It's possible that I'm getting my nomenclature mixed up, but if the payout unit is the spring loaded disc assy that counts the coins, then it's not the problem. (See pics 7574 & 7571) I pulled out those two Molex connectors and removed the payout unit completely. Also looked for physical problems on it but found none.

Yes, I was talking about the blade. I though you meant they were staying physically connected when the assembly moved.

<ADD> I pulled this out of the previous post for emphasis:

The hopper runs with no reel mech, no payout unit and without the plastic covered relay located on the bottom at the front of the hopper frame.

Further, the rest of the machine functions PERFECTLY. I mean everything! The Insert Coin light/ Winner Paid light, the top relays for CM, the other relays that I can hear "clicking" when I manually actuate the coin out lever on the hopper (NOT directly on the counting unit) to the correct payout amount*, the handle release mech, the coin lockout coil, the LED win counter (and reset on next spin) -- in short, EVERYTHING.

If I had a video camera I'd post.


It behaves like the 110 is coming directly from the wall and not through any circuitry. I'm just not sure how that's possible. :103-


* <ADD> once this has occurred, actuating the coin out lever on the hopper does NOT advance the counting disc any further (and it's not supposed to.)

FWIW, the contacts on that relay that you said you pulled, look pretty toasty. Maybe that relay de-energizes something else????

Poppo, I pried the cover off just for you.  :79- :71-

The relay is pristine. The black you saw are the center contacts which are made of carbon.

Here is a picture of the front of the blades. I included the third picture of the lower lugs because the lighting in the top picture makes them appear darkened when they are not.

So much for that theory.  :5-

For a crumby piece of plastic held on by two skimpy bumps, that cover was a Sonoma Beach to remove!  :72- :72- :72-
At least I was able to test all four/eight contacts to be sure they were all making good connections.

So, does anyone have a schematic for the hopper beau plug connections or at least some color coding info for the transformer outputs? :103-

I don't have anything on this but unless you pulled out a whole bunch of wires and connectors and forgot where they went - you should be okay as it all worked for many years.

I was just looking at that excellent photo of the relay.
You take great pictures!
It's sooo neat to zoom them larger than life!

Anyways, while you tested it to make sure that they all had continuity
when you closed the circuit - my concern is with the darkest looking pin...
I would definitely clean the female connector to that pin.
It won't hurt to clean both the pin and the female connector
but it may help?

I'll bet you already have it back in with the Sonoma Beach clear plastic
cover snapped back on it though... :72-
I usually work those covers off with the pointy tip of
an Exacto knife or jewelers screwdrivers.
There's a few of them type of relays in my modified pinball machine...

Bunker, I was going to comment on your 11111^th post but you blew right by it!  :96-

That darker tab really isn't very dark, but it couldn't hurt to sand it lightly (the bottom lug, not the carbon contacts :5-)

Actually, the machine had been sitting. That's the worst thing one can do with these machines. :60- It had worked perfectly for years but I hadn't turned it on for months. At this point I'm not sure if the motor just started up when I powered it on or wouldn't turn off after I set one payout. All I'm sure of was that I had turned it on to check something so that I could answer someone else's post and ended up with my own problem. :25- :30-

If it was the latter (first started running when I set up a payout) that would suggest a stuck relay, but the evidence doesn't support that. Maybe it's a bad cap or diode? I don't have an inline capacitor tester or an ESR meter.

I'm afraid to start testing voltages between the female pins on the beau plug without any information. That would mean a systematic combinational check (1,2; 1,3; 1,4; ... 2,1; ... 2,22; ... 21,22) and I don't want to cause more problems. That's 210 voltage checks. Besides, it will be easier to remove the wrapping from the wires and trace them, if it comes to that.

This sounds more and more like a stuck IC component not allowing
the current to turn "OFF" to the hopper?  :129-
I wish I could help more... :8-
I have no choice but to defer to the Bally EM wizards...I hope they can help you
find the solution and get your hopper working right!  :89-

IC ?? What's that?! There isn't an IC within 3 inches of this machine! The closest one is in the calculator which is sitting on the edge of the slot stand about 4 inches to the left of this puppy. :97- :97- :97- After that you'd have to travel three feet to the nearest S+. :200-

The only IC inside the machine is the one in my digital watch when I put my arm inside...  :200- :30-  :208-  Oh wait! I don't wear a digital watch!

I may have found the problem, or at least part of it.

If this diode were open would that cause the problem? I get no continuity in either direction. The resistor in serial is fine, of course.

The wires from the hopper motor are the two white (or yellowed :5-) with blue band and the two black. I'm not sure, but I think that one of each goes to each of the main blade switches. This diode connects the coil for smaller set to one of its blades. The large blue cap goes across the coil, but I don't have a way of testing it.

You can see one of the white/blue wires in the lower right corner of the picture and one of the black ones running up the left side parallel to the resistor going to the other side of the coil.

Do you ever see that solenoid energize? If that diode is open, it would prevent it from pulling iin. You could always try manually engaging it and see what happens. Or just replace the diode. Any common diode like 1N4001 1N4002 etc should work fine.

Hey! I can help you there Stat!   :291-
I have some of those 1N4001 1N4002 diodes laying around
I can send to you?

uh...BTW....uh....THAT was the "IC component" I was talking about earlier.... ::)













( Bunker lying with clenched teeth and slithering away...  :96- )

Jim sent me a diagram. The relay (coil, diode, cap, and switches) are part of the timer delay circuit and are very likely the cause of the problem. There was a microswitch listed in the diagram that might be the original cause of the diode failing. I'm waiting for Jim to reply to my email.

That line is 110VAC. Are you sure  that any common diode would work?? :103-

As for engaging or watching the relay, it is located on the backside of the hopper when the hopper is plugged in :37- so I can't see it at all. I might be able to rig a mirror and flashlight to reflect what's going on, but even with the diagram from Jim I'm still not sure which position the relay and switches are supposed to be in. Logic suggests de-energized since the machine would spend most of its time not paying out. :96-

Bunker, I might take you up on your offer once we're sure that the diode you have will work.

Poppo, I looked up the datasheet for the 1N400x series and if I read it correctly, I'll need a 1N4003 or higher (003-007) to handle peak repetitive/RMS reverse voltage of 120V/85V. Does that sound right to you?


http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ds28002.pdf (http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ds28002.pdf)

I'm pretty sure the numbers would be printed right on the diode itself Stat.
I've changed some in my 34 year old pinball machine
and they still had the numbers on them.

The number is probably on the hidden side. I'll check it.


Jim, here are picture of the microswitch to which I was referring in my email...

...and a couple of picture of the rest of the counting unit.

Yep. 1N4003 or higher.

Is that broken wire or just the tie wrap stuff?

Good eye.  :209-  It's a cut green wire with a red marker on it that goes nowhere. There are several cut wires, most likely because this is a JPO machine and has fewer payout combinations than a fruit machine. They probably used a standard wire harness when building it.

I did some more digging and the cam on the coin counter is supposed to start just after one of the divots, so that's not part of the problem. That switch is supposed to open every five coins (25 coins on my 5cm) to reset the timer but start closed and open on the fourth (20th) coin for the first group.

The delay relay safety timer design allows the timer to be set to cut off after a short time if no coins are counted. That's why it is reset every 5th base coin. The large blue capacitor on the coil in picture 7572 holds a charge long enough to keep that relay energized during the brief moment (300ms) that the microswitch disrupts the power to reset the timer. If the switch remains open too long then the relay disengages and shuts things down. I'm not really sure how this works when multiple coins are played since the main coin counter advances only once every n coins. It takes a lot longer than 300ms to pay out 5 coins. :103-

One of the reasons behind the design was to prevent a cheater from sticking something up the payout chute and holding up the counting arm on the hopper so that no coins would be counted. That would cause this circuit to trip and stop the hopper.


Poppo, according to the book the diode is supposed to be a 1N4004 so they wanted even more headroom than we calculated, and it turns out that it's actually a 1N4007 so they weren't taking any chances.

I sure hope it failed due to age and not because something else is wrong.

The local RadioShack has 4004's for $1.19 each or 25 packs of catch as can 1001-1007s for $2.99, so I'll go and get a pack and see if that solves the problem. MCM wants 7¢/9¢ for the diode and $9.00 to ship it. :279- :81-

again - if the reel mech is out of the machine - the payout unit is out of the machine - and only the HOPPER is in the machine - then the problem is either a short in the cabinet (hopper is grounded to the cabinet) - OR you have a broken connector at the hopper (beauplug). The hopper only gets energized from the payout unit (which is not attached) so the problem is NOT THE PAYOUT UNIT - NOT THE REEL MECHANISM.  unscrew the female plug (beauplug)  look for a wire that has come loose.  Check the payout relay and make sure that no wires are loose and that the switches are not stuck (the white wire and the white/blue) are the 110volt for the motor.

Barry I had been puzzled myself as to how a bad diode in this spot could cause this problem and so I asked Jim about it earlier today. He confirmed that the diode wouldn't be the cause. I've since powered up the machine with both the 50v and 6v fuses removed and the hopper still runs so in short, yours is the next step.

I'll post back after inspecting the plug. I'll also try to look for a short on the hopper assy, but a lot of these switches have multiple wires crammed in so tightly that it's difficult to tell.

Thanks,

Stat :31-


P.S. Of course, the diode still needs replacing. :96-

I haven't found anything so far. Both sides of the beau plug are good. All of the connections are rock solid and closely soldered (no lengths of bare wires). I can't find anything visually out of place or touching on any of the hopper relays or connections, either.

The next logical step is to remove the cutoff timer and look there. Back in a few... :79-

Too bad there aren't a bunch of loose quarters for me to find and claim!  :8-   I could be rich by now. :30- :72- :72- :72-

At least when after this episode is over and everything is said and done  -
you'll know a lot more about your machine!   :89-

 :96- :5- :127-  :72- :72-


The cutoff timer looks fine. If Larry disconnected it, I don't know where he did it. Besides, he shouldn't have needed to because this slot is using the delay safety timer design and the timer was (and still is) set for 15 seconds. It wouldn't trip paying out 1000 coins as long as there was never a long pause between coins. The actual cutoff switch, reset, and red light all work fine and do cut the power to the machine.

The timer is not currently turning when the hopper powers up. In testing, there is no AC voltage on the feed harness to the two black wires that run the motor, but that might be normal with the hopper removed. I don't know. :128- I can't reach in there to check the voltage with the hopper in place.

"NEXT!..."  :208- :208- :208-


SF :31-

After 41 posts - I've forgotten what the heck was wrong with your machine... :25-
This looks like a fishing expedition with a Bally EM :72-

 :200-  Hopper runs every moment that the machine is powered up, but the rest of the machine works perfectly.

if that diagram is correct, then  we have to assume that 115 vac is getting to the motor from one of three places.  to determine this you will have to begin at the motor, determine which terminal on the motor is the neutral terminal and which one is the hot side.  the neutral side should be tied to the negative side of the blue cap on the delay relay.  now after you determine this, forget about this. we needed to find out which one was the hot side. NOW--- trace all the connections from the hot side of the motor to whereever they go to. according to the diagram, they should go to the two N.C. (normally closed)  terminals of the delay relay switches,   it should go to two terminals of the N.O.  payout relay switches  and it should go to a pin on the 24 pin beau connector. this should go over to the counter unit/ ratchet switch.  double check the switch contacts of the payout relay switch, the common post of that switch will have 115vac on it all the time the game is on and safety timer is not timed out. if these contacts are open, then in theory, since the only wire going out of the hopper plug to the ratchet switch ,it could be shorted to a 115vac line somewhere along its travel to the counter unit.  if all inspections are good, then the next step is to start isolating the wires, meaning, cutting or unsoldering  one wire at a time. e.g. the wire that comes over from the ratchet switch, cut it at the beau plug, or a few inches back so it could be spliced back. that would remove the possibility  of 115 coming in on that wire.  I think you get the  procedure.  At this point I don't know of anyother way to find out how the 115 vac is getting to the hopper motor. other than to isolate each wire that has anything to do with the hot side of the motor.   

Jim

Excellent post Jim, but ooh weee...it don't look like fun... :60- 

Is that delay delay a plug in relay? It so, wouldn't pulling that relay help to narrow it down? It could not be anything before the relay if the problem persists with it pulled.

What is the coil voltage of this plastic relay? Thanks!

Far from an expert like the rest of the bunch but I have read every word or this interesting thread.  I am with Barry Fox and the short to the case theory.  Just a novice here but I have found shorts in these machines by powering it up in total darkness.  I mean TOTAL darkness.  Investigate every arc that you see once you turn the lights back on of coarse.  i hope this is helpful

Ra

Yes, interesting thread.  I recall one time we had a hopper set to pay out a very large amount of coins.  After awhile the machine did the same thing as yours.  We found that the payout relay was on so long that the switch blades got so hot they melted the plastic actuator as you have on your unit.  The blades were forced together, and when it cooled off they stayed together.  While this may not be the problem in your case, it is possible that the plastic tube inside the micarta of your switch stacks has melted, and is allowing the blades to touch internally.  Try your vom on ohms to see if any of the blades on your payout relay are contacting to the hopper case.  If so, you will have to undo the switch stack, and put in a new plastic tube insulator or repair otherwise. 
The problem with paying out very high pays is that the relay and blades get real hot, and if you have a white plastic switch actuator instead of an old style brown fiber one, you'll melt shit.  I have seen this problem with the switch stacks several times that they actually end up touching the screw which holds them together and create a nasty short after everything cools off.
Also, I don't know how much the delay relay has to do with running the hopper.  I thought it was responsible for turning off the hopper, by allowing the safety timer motor to time out.  But I could be wrong.  If anyone has a delay relay circuit, with the plug in relay, would you please remove the plug in, and try a pay to see if the machine does pay or not??? Thanks.

You can always put torn pieces of matchbook covers in between all of your payout relay switches, and then see which one causes the problem when you remove them one by one.  That works real well and can point you in the right direction.
My, this is an old thread, eh?
Was the problem ever resolved???

Reno:

I think the problem is still ongoing...