1090 5cm JPO EM hopper motor won't disengage

[StatFreak]

I may have found the problem, or at least part of it.

If this diode were open would that cause the problem? I get no continuity in either direction. The resistor in serial is fine, of course.

The wires from the hopper motor are the two white (or yellowed ) with blue band and the two black. I'm not sure, but I think that one of each goes to each of the main blade switches. This diode connects the coil for smaller set to one of its blades. The large blue cap goes across the coil, but I don't have a way of testing it.

You can see one of the white/blue wires in the lower right corner of the picture and one of the black ones running up the left side parallel to the resistor going to the other side of the coil.

[poppo]

Do you ever see that solenoid energize? If that diode is open, it would prevent it from pulling iin. You could always try manually engaging it and see what happens. Or just replace the diode. Any common diode like 1N4001 1N4002 etc should work fine.

[stayouttadabunker]

Hey! I can help you there Stat!  
I have some of those 1N4001 1N4002 diodes laying around
I can send to you?

uh...BTW....uh....THAT was the "IC component" I was talking about earlier....













( Bunker lying with clenched teeth and slithering away...  )

[StatFreak]

Do you ever see that solenoid energize? If that diode is open, it would prevent it from pulling iin. You could always try manually engaging it and see what happens. Or just replace the diode. Any common diode like 1N4001 1N4002 etc should work fine.

Jim sent me a diagram. The relay (coil, diode, cap, and switches) are part of the timer delay circuit and are very likely the cause of the problem. There was a microswitch listed in the diagram that might be the original cause of the diode failing. I'm waiting for Jim to reply to my email.

That line is 110VAC. Are you sure  that any common diode would work??

As for engaging or watching the relay, it is located on the backside of the hopper when the hopper is plugged in so I can't see it at all. I might be able to rig a mirror and flashlight to reflect what's going on, but even with the diagram from Jim I'm still not sure which position the relay and switches are supposed to be in. Logic suggests de-energized since the machine would spend most of its time not paying out.

Bunker, I might take you up on your offer once we're sure that the diode you have will work.

[StatFreak]

Poppo, I looked up the datasheet for the 1N400x series and if I read it correctly, I'll need a 1N4003 or higher (003-007) to handle peak repetitive/RMS reverse voltage of 120V/85V. Does that sound right to you?


http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ds28002.pdf

[stayouttadabunker]

I'm pretty sure the numbers would be printed right on the diode itself Stat.
I've changed some in my 34 year old pinball machine
and they still had the numbers on them.

[StatFreak]

The number is probably on the hidden side. I'll check it.


Jim, here are picture of the microswitch to which I was referring in my email...

[StatFreak]

...and a couple of picture of the rest of the counting unit.

[poppo]

Poppo, I looked up the datasheet for the 1N400x series and if I read it correctly, I'll need a 1N4003 or higher (003-007) to handle peak repetitive/RMS reverse voltage of 120V/85V. Does that sound right to you?

Yep. 1N4003 or higher.

Is that broken wire or just the tie wrap stuff?

[StatFreak]

Poppo, I looked up the datasheet for the 1N400x series and if I read it correctly, I'll need a 1N4003 or higher (003-007) to handle peak repetitive/RMS reverse voltage of 120V/85V. Does that sound right to you?

Yep. 1N4003 or higher.

Is that broken wire or just the tie wrap stuff?

Good eye.    It's a cut green wire with a red marker on it that goes nowhere. There are several cut wires, most likely because this is a JPO machine and has fewer payout combinations than a fruit machine. They probably used a standard wire harness when building it.

[StatFreak]

I did some more digging and the cam on the coin counter is supposed to start just after one of the divots, so that's not part of the problem. That switch is supposed to open every five coins (25 coins on my 5cm) to reset the timer but start closed and open on the fourth (20th) coin for the first group.

The delay relay safety timer design allows the timer to be set to cut off after a short time if no coins are counted. That's why it is reset every 5th base coin. The large blue capacitor on the coil in picture 7572 holds a charge long enough to keep that relay energized during the brief moment (300ms) that the microswitch disrupts the power to reset the timer. If the switch remains open too long then the relay disengages and shuts things down. I'm not really sure how this works when multiple coins are played since the main coin counter advances only once every n coins. It takes a lot longer than 300ms to pay out 5 coins.

One of the reasons behind the design was to prevent a cheater from sticking something up the payout chute and holding up the counting arm on the hopper so that no coins would be counted. That would cause this circuit to trip and stop the hopper.


Poppo, according to the book the diode is supposed to be a 1N4004 so they wanted even more headroom than we calculated, and it turns out that it's actually a 1N4007 so they weren't taking any chances.

I sure hope it failed due to age and not because something else is wrong.

[StatFreak]

The local RadioShack has 4004's for $1.19 each or 25 packs of catch as can 1001-1007s for $2.99, so I'll go and get a pack and see if that solves the problem. MCM wants 7¢/9¢ for the diode and $9.00 to ship it.

[FOXSSLOTS1]

again - if the reel mech is out of the machine - the payout unit is out of the machine - and only the HOPPER is in the machine - then the problem is either a short in the cabinet (hopper is grounded to the cabinet) - OR you have a broken connector at the hopper (beauplug). The hopper only gets energized from the payout unit (which is not attached) so the problem is NOT THE PAYOUT UNIT - NOT THE REEL MECHANISM.  unscrew the female plug (beauplug)  look for a wire that has come loose.  Check the payout relay and make sure that no wires are loose and that the switches are not stuck (the white wire and the white/blue) are the 110volt for the motor.

[StatFreak]

Barry I had been puzzled myself as to how a bad diode in this spot could cause this problem and so I asked Jim about it earlier today. He confirmed that the diode wouldn't be the cause. I've since powered up the machine with both the 50v and 6v fuses removed and the hopper still runs so in short, yours is the next step.

I'll post back after inspecting the plug. I'll also try to look for a short on the hopper assy, but a lot of these switches have multiple wires crammed in so tightly that it's difficult to tell.

Thanks,

Stat


P.S. Of course, the diode still needs replacing.

[StatFreak]

I haven't found anything so far. Both sides of the beau plug are good. All of the connections are rock solid and closely soldered (no lengths of bare wires). I can't find anything visually out of place or touching on any of the hopper relays or connections, either.

The next logical step is to remove the cutoff timer and look there. Back in a few...

Too bad there aren't a bunch of loose quarters for me to find and claim!     I could be rich by now.

[stayouttadabunker]

I haven't found anything so far. Both sides of the beau plug are good. All of the connections are rock solid and closely soldered (no lengths of bare wires). I can't find anything visually out of place or touching on any of the hopper relays or connections, either.

The next logical step is to remove the cutoff timer and look there. Back in a few...

Too bad there aren't a bunch of loose quarters for me to find and claim!     I could be rich by now.

At least when after this episode is over and everything is said and done  -
you'll know a lot more about your machine!   

[StatFreak]

...

At least when after this episode is over and everything is said and done  -
you'll know a lot more about your machine!   

   


The cutoff timer looks fine. If Larry disconnected it, I don't know where he did it. Besides, he shouldn't have needed to because this slot is using the delay safety timer design and the timer was (and still is) set for 15 seconds. It wouldn't trip paying out 1000 coins as long as there was never a long pause between coins. The actual cutoff switch, reset, and red light all work fine and do cut the power to the machine.

The timer is not currently turning when the hopper powers up. In testing, there is no AC voltage on the feed harness to the two black wires that run the motor, but that might be normal with the hopper removed. I don't know. I can't reach in there to check the voltage with the hopper in place.

"NEXT!..." 


SF

[stayouttadabunker]

After 41 posts - I've forgotten what the heck was wrong with your machine...
This looks like a fishing expedition with a Bally EM

[StatFreak]

After 41 posts - I've forgotten what the heck was wrong with your machine...
This looks like a fishing expedition with a Bally EM

   Hopper runs every moment that the machine is powered up, but the rest of the machine works perfectly.

[Jim]

if that diagram is correct, then  we have to assume that 115 vac is getting to the motor from one of three places.  to determine this you will have to begin at the motor, determine which terminal on the motor is the neutral terminal and which one is the hot side.  the neutral side should be tied to the negative side of the blue cap on the delay relay.  now after you determine this, forget about this. we needed to find out which one was the hot side. NOW--- trace all the connections from the hot side of the motor to whereever they go to. according to the diagram, they should go to the two N.C. (normally closed)  terminals of the delay relay switches,   it should go to two terminals of the N.O.  payout relay switches  and it should go to a pin on the 24 pin beau connector. this should go over to the counter unit/ ratchet switch.  double check the switch contacts of the payout relay switch, the common post of that switch will have 115vac on it all the time the game is on and safety timer is not timed out. if these contacts are open, then in theory, since the only wire going out of the hopper plug to the ratchet switch ,it could be shorted to a 115vac line somewhere along its travel to the counter unit.  if all inspections are good, then the next step is to start isolating the wires, meaning, cutting or unsoldering  one wire at a time. e.g. the wire that comes over from the ratchet switch, cut it at the beau plug, or a few inches back so it could be spliced back. that would remove the possibility  of 115 coming in on that wire.  I think you get the  procedure.  At this point I don't know of anyother way to find out how the 115 vac is getting to the hopper motor. other than to isolate each wire that has anything to do with the hot side of the motor.   

Jim

[stayouttadabunker]

Excellent post Jim, but ooh weee...it don't look like fun...  

[poppo]

iftrace all the connections from the hot side of the motor to whereever they go to. according to the diagram, they should go to the two N.C. (normally closed)  terminals of the delay relay switches,  .....

Is that delay delay a plug in relay? It so, wouldn't pulling that relay help to narrow it down? It could not be anything before the relay if the problem persists with it pulled.

[tkrozleski]

Poppo, I pried the cover off just for you.  

The relay is pristine. The black you saw are the center contacts which are made of carbon.

What is the coil voltage of this plastic relay? Thanks!

[RiseLikeRa]

Far from an expert like the rest of the bunch but I have read every word or this interesting thread.  I am with Barry Fox and the short to the case theory.  Just a novice here but I have found shorts in these machines by powering it up in total darkness.  I mean TOTAL darkness.  Investigate every arc that you see once you turn the lights back on of coarse.  i hope this is helpful

Ra

[OldReno]

Yes, interesting thread.  I recall one time we had a hopper set to pay out a very large amount of coins.  After awhile the machine did the same thing as yours.  We found that the payout relay was on so long that the switch blades got so hot they melted the plastic actuator as you have on your unit.  The blades were forced together, and when it cooled off they stayed together.  While this may not be the problem in your case, it is possible that the plastic tube inside the micarta of your switch stacks has melted, and is allowing the blades to touch internally.  Try your vom on ohms to see if any of the blades on your payout relay are contacting to the hopper case.  If so, you will have to undo the switch stack, and put in a new plastic tube insulator or repair otherwise. 
The problem with paying out very high pays is that the relay and blades get real hot, and if you have a white plastic switch actuator instead of an old style brown fiber one, you'll melt shit.  I have seen this problem with the switch stacks several times that they actually end up touching the screw which holds them together and create a nasty short after everything cools off.
Also, I don't know how much the delay relay has to do with running the hopper.  I thought it was responsible for turning off the hopper, by allowing the safety timer motor to time out.  But I could be wrong.  If anyone has a delay relay circuit, with the plug in relay, would you please remove the plug in, and try a pay to see if the machine does pay or not??? Thanks.