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Whoops...I did it...went out and bought the GQ-4x True USB Universal Programmer. :30- :96-
I want to back up all of my collection of S+ chips. :89-
First thing I did was mess around with the installation of USB stuff to connect the programmer to my computer. :103-
Took a while but followed the help instructions to a T and got it installed correctly and verified connection. :89-
Then I did a  USB "voltage test" to see if my USB ports would sufficiently power up the programmer. :91-
Everything passed! :89- this is the results of the test>>>

*****************************
* Testing VCC Without Load *
*****************************
VCC 3.6V test passed (code:0xf)+
VCC 5V test passed (code:0xd)+
VCC 5.5V test passed (code:0xb)+
VCC 6.2V test passed (code:0x2)+
VCC 6.5V test passed (code:0x7)+
*****************************
* Testing VPP  Without Load *
*****************************
VPP 3.6V/5V test passed (code:0x5)-
VPP 12V test passed (code:0x10)+
VPP 12.7V test passed (code:0xd)+
VPP 15V test passed (code:0xb)+
VPP 21V test passed (code:0x2)-
VPP 25V test passed (code:0x6)-
*****************************
*   Test    Completed     *
*****************************


I've got a lot to learn... :72- :91- :89-

Okay, put in a blank AMD M27C512 EPROM to see if the chip was indeed blank. :91-
Ran the programmer first to ID "read" it then I ran a "blank check" this time to to check it out...sure enough, here are the results...man that's fast! :89-

ID check OK
Reading...Code Memory
Elapsed time: 2.90 seconds.
Read completed.

ID check skipped
Blank checking...Code Memory
Elapsed time: 2.98 seconds.
Chip is blank


I'm going to bed, can't wait to play some more tomorow! :96-

ADD>> I'm wondering how many of our beloved  :nlg- moderator's got their finger ready to hit the kill button for my next post! Don't worry, I know the rules and I wouldn't think of going over the limits of this forum... :88-

Oh NO! Don't tell me you're burning Z80 replica CPUs and selling illicit copies of the TRASH-80 level I? (Radio Shack TRS-80) :96- :47- :58-   :30- :30-
I'll take one with 4K of RAM and a cassette deck please. :127-
:97- :97- :97- :97- :97-

(in a slow, southern drawwl...)   You guys crack me up.... :96-

Boy did I ever blow it....I tried to make a copy of my favorite game SS4667 Double Cherry Bar 2CM 85%. This SS is  burned onto a Texas Instruments TMS27C64 EPROM. I'm sure I corrupted my original Eprom by putting the chip in notch backwards and turning on the power to only get a "62-1" error code (Bad Data Prom)    :8-
 
1). I first "read" the eprom then saved it to "My Documents". I have, at least, a saved copy of it.  :89-
2). I did a "blank" check with a new blank AMD AM27C512...fine, programmer displays it as blank. All code memory has is "FF"'s.
3). Then I punched in "C000" into the File Offset box and "C000" into the Device Offset box.  :103-
4). Uploaded my saved file of the SS4667 in to "Code Memory" display on the programmer. (Lots of written code, noticed "ss4667" in the code way down on the right hand side where there's mostly periods typed in.
5). Check marked the "Write" box and "Verify" box on the programmer.
6). Ran the programmer... Got checksum:0xA6DO and "Device is verified" message on the bottom of my screen.  :71- Unlocked the ZIF lever, removed the newly burned Eprom,  and exited from the programmer software.

I put the newly burned copy in my game and got error Code "62-1" again...what am I doing wrong? In my excitement to do a swap,(To check and see if my board is okay) I took out the burned Eprom, installed the original SS in notch backwards and got a "Code 62-1"   :8-

Can I re-burn a new blank using my saved file of the SS4667?
The saved file when "read" displays Checksum:0x86D0
The blanks "read" Checksum:0x0000.
I know I probably didn't do it right the first time.  :30-
I think I'm doing something wrong on the File and Device offsets settings.  :99-
I noticed that the code memory is only about half as what is written on the original and saved files. Is that because of the differences in chip sizes?  :103-

Any help of course is greatly appreciated ! Thanks.   :89-
stayouttadabunker
a.k.a. "The chip destroyer" To be my new near-future NLG moniker  :25-

Look in your email for a surprise !!!!

I may have sent that same surprise to him!  :)

Whoa there Nellie!!!! I'm getting swamped with Z-80 replicas and Trash 80 Level 1 software!!!!!(just kidding)
I would like to take this moment to deeply thanks everyone for sending me...you know...love?  :96- :131- :3-
I'm gonna be online all night now trying to thank everyone for their "contributions"...I will (when I get better at this)
send all those who helped me a "little" gift...just get that StatFreak to stop pickin' on me!!!!  :96-

 :96- :97- :97- :97- :97-

I think r273 helped me find out what I was doing wrong.....He sent me some of his personal programming notes which I feel is very important to have as a reference to assist a newbie programmer like me. I will ask his permission later on to have it edited so that it could be presented as a valuable tool in helping someone make a backup copy of an eprom that can be used in various games and equipment such as pinball, arcade, DBV's and of course slots. :89-

On the 4th step of the second paragraph, there's a procedure to "change A-B to B 0xC000 as B address and 0x2000 as the size". I totally overlooked this because of the simple reason...I don't know what the nuggets this is all about and what it's used for... :103- :25- So I neglected in reading further about it and skipped the step in the GQ-4X programming instructions. :60-
Instead, I typed in "C000" in both dialog boxes hoping to burn a perfect backup copy of my game. :30-
That may explain why the eprom wouldnt work on my machine and shoots me a "62-1" error code instead.
I may be wrong, but I will make another attempt to make a copy before the evenings over....it's a good thing I bought a dozen of these for my learning ("I'm gonna say...practice") rounds. :96-
I will succeed in accomplishing my goals of backing up my collection and repairing my game! :89-

Hmmm.  :103- I thought I sent you the same thing everyone else did, but after reading your last post, I realize that what I sent you might be a bit different.. :128-
Check your email.  :79-

Got it, thanks SF!

After installing the newly burned backup (containing checksum:0XA700, and "verified" but not "Locked") onto a 16MHz board, I'm getting that dreaded "62-1" error code (means "Bad Data Eprom").
Ther are no jumpers on a 16MHz board whereas, the 10MHz board has a jumper on both the reel & game sockets.
I'm thinking of putting the copy in a 10MHz board instead.
Normally (because S+ reel eproms are made with 27C64 chips) the jumpers are jumping the two pins facing the dipswitch side of the board.
Should I move the reel socket jumper towards the transformer side ,leave it where it is, or pull out the jumper altogether?
Whoever has the correct answer for this: wins a free machine from Navinut... :72-

I am sure I am disqualified from this contest because I am staff (thankfully ......)

My conjecture is that your error could be because your chip is not fast enough. Your suggestion of putting it in a 10mhz is probably a good test.

This is the specs on the blanks I'm using...is it fast enough to use for reel eproms on a 16MHz board?

ADD>> double-click to make picture larger...

On the other thread I was told that a 70ns chip would work so I think your 55ns should be fine.  :103-

For a 16MHz S+ I'm pretty sure that anything faster than 120ns is fine. (I think that even 150ns will work, but am not sure). 55ns is blazing for the S+; the chip is probably bored. :97- :97-

All kidding aside, when you burn an SS reel chip (8KB file for a 27c64 chip) onto a 27c512, you must burn it starting at the chip offset of 0xc000 for the S+ to read it properly. If you've done it right, when you look at the hex readout of the finished chip, everything will be blank (0xFF) from 0x0000 to 0xbfff, the data will start at 0xc000 and stop at 0xdfff, and 0xe000 to 0xffff will be all 0xFF (blank). The data at 0xc000 should match the beginning of the file.

I would like to add: If you use a 27c512 or SST 27SF512 in a S2000 or Vision the C000 offset will not work.

The reason the S+ needs the offset is on a 27c64 they apply Vcc to Vpp and the Programming Pin which corresponds to C000 A15 & A14 Logic level 1 on a 27C512. Where the S2000 just keeps unused pins at logic 0

Thanks Foster. K+ :3-

Foster,
Can I send you a copy of my GQ-4X software?
I need to know what to type into the dialog box.
It's too hard to explain but easier for you to see if you peruse the software yourself.
You'll see what I mean.
I've sent this software to Statfreak and r273...no one's been able to figure out how to burn a copy and get it to work without getting that dreadful "62-1" error code on my S+.
What is this box for ?

Blank chip checking...I'm using AMD's   AM27C512's
Click on .jpg to enlarge picture...

That looks like you can fill an area with any value (FF)  -  or forcibly erase the chip.

Yes and No,
These AMD  AM27C512 Eproms can only be erased when the paper is removed from the window and submitted to UV light.
You need EEproms to "Electrically Erase"or "Electronically Erase" with this dialog box.
You CAN however, add/ or erase whatever file value you want into the "Code Memory" data box area.

Actually, I haven't had a chance to install the software. :60- I apologize.  :125-

You won't want to mess with the 'Fill' command.

I believe that what you need to do is to put 0000 in the file offset box, and c000 in the device offset box.

It that doesn't work, try it the other way. :96- :30-

(http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1947.0;attach=6225;image)

I tried this...the first pic is the dialog box for "File and Device"  offsets.
The second pic is the blank Eprom configured to be written with an offset of 0XC000...
Should I change the "File" offset before I burn another attempt?

No. Did you already burn one this way and try the chip? If so, and if failed, then try setting the file offest to c000 and the erpom offest to 0000 (but I was pretty sure this first way would work).

When I uised that software I left the file offset at 0000 and the changed device to C000
That way the file would load into the buffer you see on screen starting at 0000, but would be placed in the device at C000
Now you know why I like the SST27SF512's if you made a mistake with them you can re-use them immediately

My 2-cents.  I have GQ   rev 1.04

Unplug your USB.
Open GQ twice.
In one window set Device to 27c512.
Then fill 0000 to FFFF with 00

In the second window open your IGT eprom file.
Put your cursor at the top left and highlight the entire file, (left click, drag to end of file) and copy.

Paste at location C000 in the first window.
Save it.

Close the second window.

Plug in your USB.
Select 27C512 again.
Insert blank eprom, ID it, read it.
Reopen saved file and write.

Yes,
I'm going shopping...I am running out of chips here.... :72-
I should sell them on ebay..."AS IS"...   :25-

Really, I need to make an UV eraser...

I entered "C000" into the 'Device" offset box instead of "0xC000".
The code memory has data starting from "00000000" and all data ends at line "00001FF0".
All the lines after that show "FF".

I noticed on line "00001F50" the percentage of the file is shown as 85.02%.
That's a tough reel chip that I like to play with! :89-
On line "00001F30" there are some letters and numbers that say "S+ 4667".

I'd love to try that .
I have the first line "00000000"
But my last line is :"0000FFF0"
I don't have "FFFF"

ARGH!!! :37-

the trick is FFF0 to FFFF is the last line
Programmer software and HxD when dealing with 8 bit (1 byte) width data displays 16 bytes per line
FFFF is the last byte in the row.

Address                                                                 
0000FFF0  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF--FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................

Address      0  1  2   3  4  5  6  7    8  9 A  B   C   D  E  F
0000FFF?  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF--FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................
replace ? with 0 to F

Foster is confirming my suggestion. If you load the file and burn the chip with "0000" in the file offset and "C000" in the device offset, it should work.

Like Foster said,
Yes you do.
You only see the address of the beginning of each line.


So the last line is really;
  FFF0  FFF1  FFF2  FFF3  FFF4  FFF5  FFF6  FFF7  FFF8  FFF9  FFFA  FFFB  FFFC  FFFD  FFFE  FFFF

That's great Foster,
Man....... where were you when I burned all these blanks and none of them work? lol
I kept on getting "62-1"....argh....I was starting to wonder if it was the reel jumper on the 10MHz boards.
But I normally use my Double Cherry Bar woth a 16MHz and there's no reel or game jumpers.
Anyways, before I make another attempt ( I sound like that dumb magician now where nothing worked...lol)
Are there any other fine points I should be aware of?
JDKMunch is eagerly following this thread because he has a GQ-4X coming in the mail as well.
If it's better for you, please send me an email instead...
Again, thank to you and everyone else for all the help you've given me on this....I'm sure it'll benefit future NLG members.

Yup. :89- 

Remember, you're counting from 1 to 10 on each line, only in base 16! Just think of each line ID as increasing by 10 with the single digits in the row from left to right.
FF00     0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F
FF10  ...

--------------------------

Now, if you really want to get confused, :5-, each single hex digit represents a four-digit binary number:
0h  =  0000 b
1 h  =  0001 b
2 h  =  0010 b
3 h  =  0011 b
4 h  =  0100 b
5 h  =  0101 b
6 h  =  0110 b
7 h  =  0111 b
8 h  =  1000 b
9 h  =  1001 b
A h  =  1010 b
B h  =  1011 b
C h  =  1100 b
D h  =  1101 b
E h  =  1110 b
F h  =  1111 b

10 h =  0001  0000 b
1F h =  0001  1111 b  (notice how each hex digit represents it's own chunk of four binary digits.

So   C000 h  =   1100  0000  0000  0000 b
and  FFF0 h  =   1111  1111  1111  0000 b
and  FFFF h  =   1111  1111  1111  1111 b

Actually, hex makes it really easy to convert to binary, which is why they use it. :89-

Uniman,
I agree with you and thanks...
my last line looks like this though:

0000FFF0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF - FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF

8 columns of "FF's" separated by "-" then 8 more column's of "FF's".

Weird stuff, what friggin' lanquage is this stuff written in ...pig latin?
It's ridiculous looking , undecipherable garbage.
The only thing I see on the right hand side of the box is very little type written stuff.
I make out IGT near the top and I see the reel # near the bottom.
The rest is garbage....I need a pig latin" descrambler...again...lol :72-

[Remember, you're counting from 1 to 10 on each line, only in base 16! Just think of each line ID as increasing by 10 with the single digits in the row from left to right.
FF00     0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F
FF10  ...]

Oh!!!! I GET IT NOW!!!! :25-

jeesh, this isnt easy....
I'm learning a lot though, awesome stuff really...nothing I would try to woo a woman with though. Good thing I'm already married...lol...
What kind of books can I read to figure out what all that junk means though?
I getting kinda interested about it...I've just opened up a few more doors to my inquisitive mind (as usual).
Or is it all taboo stuff and just worry about making back ups of my collection like I wanted to do in the first place?

Here is link I found helpful when I got started;

http://www.arlabs.com/help.htm (http://www.arlabs.com/help.htm)

Remember also that the value that you see in each position is just that: a VALUE. (Not the address.) So that row of FF FF FF... means that the value of FF is stored in each of those locations.

Think of the numbers on the side and across the top as the addresses of houses on a street, and the 2-digit numbers that you read across the line as what's IN the houses.

          0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7         8     9     A     B     C     D     E     F
FFE0   FF    FF    FF   FF    FF    FF    FF    FF  -   FF     FF    FF    FF    FF    FF    FF    FF     . . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . .
FFF0   FF    FF    FF   FF    FF    FF    FF    FF  -   FF     FF    DA   1D   FF    FF    44    61    . . . . . . . .  . . . . . . Da

The green numbers are the addresses of the "houses", the black numbers are what's stored in each "house".
In this example, the memory address of FFFAh has the data value of  DAh stored in it, and the memory address of FFFBh has the data value of 1Dh stored there. These values are often written as 0xDA and 0x1D

The dots and text that you see on the right represent the ASCII value of the hex numbers stored in each address. If there is no ASCII equivalent of the hex number then a dot is printed. Otherwise the ASCII text value is displayed.

In this example, the value stored in address FFFEh = 44h.  44h = 68 decimal = the ASCII character "D".
                      the value stored in address  FFFFh = 61h.  61h = 97 decimal = the ASCII character "a".   So you see Da on the right for those addreses.

If the readable data on the right looks like garbage, it's because the binary data is actually machine code and just happens to correspond to random ASCII values.
If the readable data on the right actually says something in English, it's because the binary code is being used to represent characters that will be displayed or printed out for the end user at some point when the program runs.


<EDIT> corrected and added more detail to the explanation.

And, when you erase an eprom it is actually filled with 1's. 1111 1111   1111 1111 etc
In Hexadecimal, these ones are represented by....              F F             F F

When you write to an eprom, you pushing out selected 1's.
So it ends up looking like...............................................    1f               a4             14         etc
In binary .................................................................0001 1111   1010 0100   0001 0100

I believe it was Jay who explained it to me. (CRS :103- ) When you 'erase' a UV EEPROM, you are actually melting a substance that flows and covers all of the 'contacts' on the chip. The substance conducts electricity, so every connection is turned 'on' with a value of 1.

When you burn a chip, you are literally burning away this material at each node that you want to be 'off' (a value of zero). Once burned away, that memory node can't be reset to a 1 without melting the substance again under a UV light. Eventually, there comes a time when there isn't enough of the substance left (or it doesn't flow properly anymore ??) and the chip can't be reprogrammed again.

It is somewhat similiar to the days when I programmed house alarms...I could give a ASCII text value to the side so I could use it as reference to what I programmed in. It helped me decipher what I did so could have something to fall back on when I came back to it at another time. Too many zero's and ones could drive your eyesight batty! :5-

Uniman's link is something I seen before, not all of it is entirely new to me, but I just havent played with it enough.
It's so much more fun to understand everything that goes on with a machine than, I find, than just dropping in a few coins - I like to see what makes it tick....reminds me when I was a budding teenager, and of stunningly beautiful girl that asked me to fix her broken radio I later blew up... :96-

That's must be why the UV erasable-chips can only be erased about 25 times...I saw this somewhere a few day ago. ( Also a form of CRS? )

I think the CD and DVD RW discs have about the same number of erase rewrites as well, maybe more but I wouldn't chance it when they are so cheap.


 

I think I can answer two questions here.

First, the main one. Think of an EPROM as a notebook. A 27C64 has one page, and the larger 27C256 has 8 pages. The address lines tell the EPROM which page you're looking at. Since the 27C64 only has one page, it doesn't have enough addresses for eight - those pins are still there, but used for other things and tied to fixed voltages. When you drop in a 27C256, those fixed voltages select one of its 8 pages, which is probably not the one you wrote on. So the trick is to use the burner software to copy the same data to all eight pages, at 0000, 2000, 4000, 6000, 8000, A000, C000 and E000. Then it doesn't matter which page gets selected, you still read the same information. Load the 27C64 one-page data - it goes in at 0000 - then copy it to all the others one at a time, then burn the 27C512.

Second, how do EPROMs work. First I have to tell you how MOSFETs work, because an EPROM is just thousands of MOSFETs in a matrix. A MOSFET has a layer of semiconductor (silicon) with two end terminals, and a metal gate electrode on top insulated from the rest by an infinitesimally thin layer of glass (silicon dioxide). Normally current will not flow between the ends because the silicon behaves like two diodes back to back. When you apply a voltage to the gate, the electric field attracts electrons into the area under the gate oxide. This makes a conducting path between the two ends, so current can pass and the MOSFET turns on. Hence Metal-Oxide-Silicon-Field-Effect-Transistor (MOSFET).

Now the trick with EPROMs is that under the gate metal, there's a "buried gate", another piece of metal completely enclosed in glass and not connected to anything. When a bit in the EPROM has its MOSFET turned off, it reads as a 1. When you program the EPROM you apply a high voltage to the gate that breaks down the insulation so that current flows through the gate oxide, and through the buried gate, into the silicon. When you remove the voltage the current stops, but some charge carriers (ions, not electrons, but let's not go there) were only half way across, and they get trapped in the buried gate and can't get away. There they sit, attracting electrons into the area under the gate oxide, so the MOSFET stays turned on for ever. Now this bit reads as a 0, not a 1. You can't "unprogram" this bit electrically with an EPROM (you can with an EEPROM, but that's another story). So you can program more 1 bits to 0, but you can't program a 0 back to a 1.

To erase an EPROM you shine energetic UV light on it. This causes a photoelectric effect, stimulating the charge carriers in the buried gates until they have enough energy to jump through the gate oxide and leak away. When they're all gone your EPROM is erased and you can program it again. There is a lifetime effect, because the programming process leaves a few free ions scattered through the molecular structure of the glass insulator, and after a while it doesn't insulate so well and the charge trapped on the buried gate leaks away, but it's at least 1000 program/erase cycles. A worn out chip can be recovered by annealing it in a hot oven to restore the crystal structure, but this is a laboratory experiment, not something to try at home (it destroys the package).

Hope this helps.

Op-Bell, I'm going to have to speak to someone in charge around here about letting me give you extra karmas. :79-  :71- :71-

Thanks again. :3-

I thought Global Mods could do anything they wanted!!!

OR they should be allowed to do so!!!

Only one K in 12 hours - that goes for everyone. Only the admins can manually edit the numbers.

I am .... this is really eerie!  It's like looking at my future.   Were you able to burn a working chip?

That is the most complete explanation on eproms I've ever seen. Thanks Op-Bell.  :89-  K+

Copying the program to "every page" is what I do to my Universal eproms. Old Universals use a 24-pin 2732 game(reel) eprom in a 28-pin socket. Instead of looking for 2732's, I use 28-pin 27c128's, copy the file four times and then save it as "game#-27c128".   

I will throw this out to you.

Is the "Fill Buffer With Data" reached by clicking on the A-B icon on the top of your window? If so mine works similar to that. I only change the "to address" to 0xC000 and the "Data" to 0x2000 when using the 27C512.

Ron

No,
There's a button on top (shown in photo) that has (01..ff).
When I hover over the button with my cursor, a small dialog box pops up saying "Fill buffer with 0xFF".
It's like you would use that button to fill up the data "Code Memory" page with FF's.
Sort of like you see when you initially turn the programmer on.
 

When I hover the AB button with the cursor, I get a small dialog box that says "Byte Swap".
When I have a file uploaded, all the AB button does is sort of switch data around...swaps data inputs on the lines.
Like as if you would want to change stuff in the the data before burning.
Shown is a picture of the cursor hovering over the AB button>>
 

Oops I forgot about the 00.....FF fill Icon it does exactly as it implies.
It fills an address range with the byte value you enter

The A B Icon swaps the even and odd bytes in the buffer, I would not mess with it.

So stayouttabunker, have you tried leaving the "from address" 0x0000 and "to address" to 0xC000 and the "Data" to 0x2000?

Ron

yes, I clicked on the "01.. ..FF" button,
it brings up the dialog box where I have options to "Fill Buffer With Data".
The first line is titled: "From Address(Hex) 0x (whatever I want to enter goes here)
The second line is titled: "To Address(Hex) 0x (whatever I want to enter goes here)
The last line line is titled: "Data(Hex) (whatever I want to enter goes here)
This is a photo of what I'm talking about>>>
when you click on the link, you can open it much larger and clearer...

This is when after I entered "C000">>

Now, do I change anything down in the third line?
Or should I leave the default "FF"" there?
I aslo found that I can make enter any changes even though the programmer isnt plugged in.
The programmer box is really only needed when I do the actual reading or burning, the physical box isnt needed when configuring these dialog boxes.

The third line gets the 0x2000.

So, here's a question:

When I look at the data in a Hex editor, I can find the string I want, but it's always in nonconsecutive order. For instance, the word INVALID is the string I'm looking for, but it shows up like this (I've highlighted one possible match):

l.om Fse wPleaINVAait.LINELID.N.ST DOWY.UNANDBIGURCONF

As you can see there are other possibilities in that string that could make up the word I searched for. How do I determine what characters are the ones contained in my search string?

["The third line gets the 0x2000"] quote

I cannot enter "0X2000", the third line "Data(Hex)" It will accept no more than 2 integers.
The most I can enter there is "20"
When I hit the "OK" button, the code memory filled up with 20's everywhere from line "0000" all the way down to line"C000".
Also, there are usually periods and writing on the right side - now there's nothing....is that what you want me to do?
 see photo>>

Sorry my idea is not working on your programmer. This must only work on the old "Enhanced Willem" I have. If you could get hold of Rick Hunter, he may have some more suggestions.

Ron

<edit> Have you check this?

http://www.mcumall.com/forum/default.asp (http://www.mcumall.com/forum/default.asp)

okay,
Thanks for all your help r273!...I'm learning a lot though :89-
I'll keep burning 'till something works :72-

ADD>>I did check out that link and there's lots to learn there as well.
I just got off the phone with uniman and he walked me through the copy/paste method of moving data around onto the various address lines in the code memory area ( as Op-Bell suggested earlier)
 I have to thank all those who've helped me on this and will get back here soon with some posts on how it all went.

Beep, beep ,beep....      ***We now return to regular scheduled programming***


Have a great weekend!

Do what this man says.
Select eprom size 27c512
Open you IGT file.
Copy it
Paste it at 2000, 4000, 6000, 8000, A000, C000, and E000
Burn your eprom.
Done

The third box is for 8 bit data to put in each location, so you can't enter "2000" there, it's too many bits.

'20' is the code for <space>, so you do actually have data down the right side, it's just all spaces. Try entering '41' in the third box, you'll get all 'A's.

here is the way to do it correctly using the software, I do not currently have my GQ-2X available.
It has since been replaced by a EasyPRO 90B.
the GQ-4X came out after I got my EasyPRO 90B

Foster!
That's very similiar to the software I'm using....how did you capture the screen?
I'm getting real sick of making my pictures smaller so they fit on "800x600" on NLG posts.
I'm using windoze XP.
One thing for sure, the bloody "print screen" button on my keyboard never worked :37-

By the way,
I did that Foster, but it only wrote data on lines "0000" down to line "1FF0".
It doesnt work in my S+ like that.
I think I have to copy and paste the data over and over  beginning on lines 2000, 4000, 6000, 8000, A000, C000, and E000 in order for the chip to work.

Press ctrl-printscreen or alt-printscreen  -- one captures the whole desktop and the other captures just the open window. 

Once you do that you can just paste into word or photoshop to save the image... that should help

It is called Snipping Tool which is part of Windows 7
Yes I like Vista, but I like Windows 7 even more

That's pretty cool....lol...I always thought the "print screen" button on the keyboard was for sending the page to your printer and physically printing the bloody thing! :25- :25- :25- :25- :25-

It used to a long time ago.

Another tip: If you find that you can't just paste the screen shot directly into your photo program, open MS Word and paste the picture in word. Then re-copy the image to the clipboard and paste it into your photo program. This works anytime that you have an image in the clipboard that can't be pasted as a new image in a photo program. This has also worked for me when getting images off of a web page that has disabled the right-click function to try to stop people from downloading the pictures. I drag the cursor over the image to highlight it and press <ctrl> C. The clipboard object can't be pasted as an image into my photo software, but the MSWord trick works every time. MicroCrap.. gotta love'em. :25- :37-

By all means, do the multi-paste as Op-Bell instructed to get you up and running.

But for giggles, would you try my suggestion from all the way back on Page 2?

Try putting c000 in the file offset box and 0000 in the device offset box. It would be good to know how to achieve burning the file data into an offest location on the chip. The program has to have this capability, and maybe the nomenclature used for the text boxes is just misleading.

File loads the data in the buffer into that address as it loads the data from the file.
Device only applies during the programming and verify cycle, meaning the data is placed in the device starting at the offset and read back starting at that offset during the verify.

Whatever you do, do not use both file and device offset at same time (may be rare cases where it may be useful)

I'll try both suggestions even though I like the copy/paste method.
By the way, when I DID the copy/paste method, the data completly filled up the code memory area from the beginning (0000) to the bottom and last line (FFF0).
It's like as if I copied the same data file 8 times in a row. I saved that redone file before I burned one eprom using the copy/paste method.
Now I will try it your way (C000) in the file offeset box...
give ya an update soon...
somebody's gonna win a "IGHT" slot machine from navinut yet!

update: I have a crazy order of SST's  512-sized EEproms coming in.  I then will will able to use the erase button on the programmer,  instead of me staring at the pile of mistakes on the corner of my table.... :72-

This the "copy/paste" attempt and how it looks after the copy is made>>

Marc  -  What did you press Alt-PrtScr or Ctrl-Pctscr ?? - -    one will just snap the window in focus so you don't get the entire desktop  --  I'm on my mac now and don't remember  which is which.


Looks great thou --


would look better if the chip worked!!!!!!!!!   :30-

you will crack it... I can't wait to try-- - they mailed it Wednesday so I'm hoping for Tuesday delivery.

<Ctrl><PrtScn> captures the entire desktop.
<Alt><PrtScn> captures the active window. For Windows Server, I believe that you need to press <Alt><Right Shift><Prtscn> to do this.

of course, I don't remember whether I hit "Ctrl" or Alt" and "Print Screen"
(I attribute that to Stat's CRS rubbing off on me) :71-
But here I try again and see if it comes up clearer>>
This one is burned using the 0xC000 in the "device offset" dialog box

I have no clue if these last two chips I burned are going to work...details at eleven

click on snapshot to see better>>>

I hope they do!!!  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

You posted just after eleven. :72- :72- :72-

[You posted just after eleven.]   :72- :72-
maybe on the west coast!!

Beep,beep,beep...**** breaking news update from the East coast news...***   Both chips work!!!!!!!!! :89-


The copy/paste (recommended by Op-Bell and re-enforced by Uniman) was tried first...I was so excited that I played a whole bucket of coins...whew!
It pays out perfectly and even has that wonderful little "pause" after every 100 pulls! :91-

The second burn was installed using the "Device Offset" of 0xC00" ( duly insisted by Statfreak) was entered into the dialog box.
That burn worked like a charm as well....I now have beautifully working 2CM DBL.Cherry Bar reel chip with a backed-up copy!!!!
That's all I wanted to accomplish wth this and it was done with only the help of our beloved members.... :3- thanks to all those that endorsed various suggestions and help....I am forever indebted... :131- :131- :131- :131-

 :92- :136- :105-

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!    Enjoy!!

 :wa

Fantastic!
The offset way has to be easier once you master it. The copy and paste is a bit more time consuming but easier for a beginner. IMO
Glad to hear they both worked.

yes,
Typing in "0xC000" into the "Device Offset" dialog box lays down the code beginning on line "0000 C000".
Almost near the bottom of the chip.
Interesting stuff really.
You guys were right on the money about the 8 places to begin to lay out the code. :89-
Just for kicks, I read the first ones I burned...I see what happened...
I was laying the code only on the first line ("0000") and nowhere else on the 512 chips.... :25-
The S+'s CPU was reading blanks, because I never had anything written into line "C000".
That's why I was getting the dreaded "62-1" Error Code in the "Winner Paid" window.

Another way of putting it is:

Say you're reading a book that has 8 chapters in it.
You finish chapter 6, when it's really grabbing your interest,
you turn the page to find out what happened and the page is blank!

Great! So what we learned from this is the unused lines on the EPROM socket are tied to 1, 1, 0, selecting the C000 page on a 27C512. Well, I learned it anyway - Statfreak already worked it out. Note, though, that if one of the unused pins was unconnected on the PCB it could float either way, high or low, in which case writing to one page might work or not, but the "copy to all" would always work.

Congrats,

I knew you could do it.

Thanks Foster,
I like learning new things... :89-
Couldn't have done it without everyone's help... :3-
What steered me in in the right direction was really, a phone call to Uniman. :89-
He convinced me to try the copy/paste method.
Once I saw what that looked liked, and tried the other way (0xC00 in the "Device" window),
I began to physically see the difference as to what was being written onto the eprom. :89- :71-

It was really a crash course on eproms :96-

 :105- :136-

I knew that Op-Bell's multiple paste would work, but I figured that it would be a good idea to know how to correctly burn a smaller file into a specific part of a larger chip using this software, since it's something that needs to be done from time to time, and since several members have bought or will be buying this burner. :89- :71-

Good work Bunker! :3- :3-

(I've been thinking: Since Barry calls you Stout, and a couple of us have been calling you Bunker (like a last name), how about Stout O'Bunker, or Stout Of'Bunker? (like Stout of Heart) We're knee-deep in Marks. :5-

Or you could be Mark #2 (Like the Dans)

haha!
Thanks Stat,

"Mark" must of been a popular name when I was born...anyways, by the time you type out "Stout O' Bunker' you might as well type out "stayouttadabunker"...It's just about as long....

My wife says you guys can call me "SOB"- which is short for "Stout O'Bunker"!

However, that's not why she thought of SOB though... :96-

I sure wish we had mail delivery today! With all this great info posted here  I could be backing up my ROMS too!!!  I think MCUMall ships quickly.
 :137-

 :72- :72- :72-  That was the first acronym to present itself back in 2008, but I'd never have posted it. :96- 

I wasn't suggesting that we type Stout O'Bunker in every case. :79-  We'd use Stout sometimes, Bunker others.
Then eventually everyone would shorten it to SB. So now that all of that's out of the way, we can cut to the chase and use SB. :71-

 :72- sb is fine with me..... :25- oh...the things I let people talk me into :96-

Blackjack, or Mark,or Mark#2,or SB,or SOB,or, Stout, or Bunker, or Stout O'Bunker,etc

Glad you got it up and working! :3-   Just wish I had more input, but I new the other guys would come though.
It was just like Christmas when I first got mine working. :89-

Ron

No Ron,
Your input was perfect!
It brought up more questions and I thank you very much for all the help you gave me  :89-

I've been doing a little online reading, and apparently, EPROMS are actually analog devices. When used to store digital data, the MOSFET location is determined to be a 1 if more than 1/2 charged, and a 0 if less than half, but the actual amount of the charge can be used if desired. They can be designed to store analog information, most commonly sound, by partially (dis)charging the gates based on the moment-by-moment voltage of an analog waveform. When the chip is read, the various charge states of the MOSFETs are converted back into relative voltages to reproduce the analog waveform.

I defer to Op-Bell to confirm or deny these new data, but if this is correct, then I've definitely learned something new today. :71- :71-

I also managed to find an entire set of course materials from a college website that wasn't protected. (Not one of the sites where I learned the info above)
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-ECSE-6290%20SDM-2/ (http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-ECSE-6290%20SDM-2/)

You can go up one directory and get the exams and answers for several years as well, and there are other courses accessible taught by this instructor.

Unfortunately, part 1 of this course is taught by another professor named Shur, but the link on his page to part 1 doesn't work. :60-

What you're describing sounds more like dynamic RAM, which does work in a similar way by storing charge on the gate capacitance, though maybe the same principle is used with modern EPROMs where the geometry is very small (small = weak effect). The readout is done with a sort of electrical equivalent of a sensitive beam balance, where a very tiny voltage tips it one way or the other and it's the tipped balance that gets read out, not the voltage directly.

You can also use MOSFETs, as you say, as analog memories, though only for a very short time like a second or so. Commonly they're used as analog delay lines, where a variable voltage goes in one end, is stepped along from cell to cell and exits in the same form (but later) at the other end. It's also the principle of the CCD (charge coupled device) image sensors in digital cameras. Here you charge up all the MOSFET gates in the sensor, exposethe gates to light so that the charge leaks away by the photoelectric effect - more where the light is brighter, then read out all the cells and arrange the voltages as a pattern of light and dark, ie a picture.

I've been doing some reading as well and I'll quote this from "How stuff works.com">>


[If the flow through the gate is greater than 50 percent of the charge, it has a value of 1. When the charge passing through drops below the 50-percent threshold, the value changes to 0. A blank EPROM has all of the gates fully open, giving each cell a value of 1. ] end quote

And this>>

[To rewrite an EPROM, you must erase it first. To erase it, you must supply a level of energy strong enough to break through the negative electrons blocking the floating gate. In a standard EPROM, this is best accomplished with UV light at a frequency of 253.7. Because this particular frequency will not penetrate most plastics or glasses, each EPROM chip has a quartz window on top of it. The EPROM must be very close to the eraser's light source, within an inch or two, to work properly.

An EPROM eraser is not selective, it will erase the entire EPROM. The EPROM must be removed from the device it is in and placed under the UV light of the EPROM eraser for several minutes. An EPROM that is left under too long can become over-erased. In such a case, the EPROM's floating gates are charged to the point that they are unable to hold the electrons at all. ] end quote

To answer the question of how long the eprom should stay in the eraser?
I quote again from "How stuff works .com">>

[the best way to determine exposure time is to run an empirical exposure test. First, expose the EPROMs for 1 minute and test for erasure. If they are not erased, expose them again for another minute. Keeping track of the total exposure time, repeat this process until they are erased. Now take the total time and multiply by 1.5. For example, if it takes 3 minutes we should use a 4.5 minutes exposure time to ensure good erasure without over erasing. Remember if you leave an EPROM in the eraser too long, it can remain erased forever and will no longer program. ]

That would definitely be the safe way to do it. However, with the cheap Chinese eraser we're using, the wattage is low enough that it's not a significant risk. I know that with one or two 27C512s in the eraser it still takes at least 20 minutes to erase them. It takes longer with more chips, and even though one can fit seven of these chips into the tray, it's not a good idea because the small UV lamp in there doesn't give the greatest coverage. So erasing multiple (3-4) chips for 35+ minutes or a single chip for 25-30 minutes isn't going to damage them. Some of the more expensive erasers can erase a chip like this in just 4-6 minutes. In such cases, every minute would count.  Just my 2 cents.

I use one of these (Walling Co, Datarase). Unfortunately they're not made any more but can be picked up on Ebay - ebay search for datarase (http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=datarase&_sacat=See-All-Categories). They hold up to 4 EPROMs and do the job in 3 minutes (yes, three). The secret's in the tube. These use a "sterilizing UV" tube with a shorter wavelength than usual.

Y'know, I was gonna just let it go so as not to appear pedantic, but those guys at "How Stuff Works" are the living proof how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Here's an explanation from an EPROM manufacturer (Atmel):

“Basically, EPROMs are programmed through the accumulation of electrons on the floating gate of an N-Channel EPROM cell by the process of hot-electron injection. Hot-electron injection is where electrons, flowing as a current between the drain and source of a saturated EPROM cell, gain enough energy from the high electric field to jump the oxide barrier between the channel and the floating gate (see Figure 2). Before programming, the MOS threshold voltage, Vth (otherwise known as the gate threshold voltage) of the erased floating-gate EPROM cell is about 1V to 2V (see Figure 3). After programming, its threshold voltage is about 6.5V to 9V, due to the accumulated electrons on the floating gate. In read mode, the address decoding circuitry in the chip selects the desired cell by pulling the gate voltage of the cell to Vcc. Since Vcc is typically 4.5V to 5.5V, an erased cell with a Vth  = 1.5V would be turned on (Figure 3), while a programmed cell with a Vth = 7.5V would remain off (see Figure 4). This floating-gate process is how a single MOSFET-like transistor can provide for the two logic levels used in digital circuitry.”

The thing I mainly object to is HSW saying you can over-erase an EPROM. You cannot over-erase an EPROM. Once the charges are gone from the floating gate, you cannot remove any more charges, even if you leave it in the eraser for a year. I know where they got it from - you can over-erase a Flash ROM, because Flash is erased electrically by reversing the programming process and you must be careful not to leave the gate with a positive floating charge. But this isn't a danger with EPROMs.

Does it matter if it's the model with the timer or not? I can't tell from the ad.

Mine doesn't have the timer. Looks like the four currently on Ebay all do, since they all appear to have the timer adjustment control to the right of the switch. The model without a timer just has plain blue label over the hole.

<edit> model "ACT" has the timer, model "AC" doesn't. Incidentally, the list price of these things new was AC - $39.95, ACT - $49.95.

I bought this one for $38.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=270337132545 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=270337132545)

Op-Bell, I don't think it will come with the user guide. Is there any chance you could email me a copy?

Good deal, that's the one I would have bought too. The price is fair and it's the only one that I'm sure has a power supply with it.

I don't have a manual or user guide. There's not much to it. Connect power supply, open lid, place EPROMs in it face down, close lid, lamp comes on, wait until lamp goes off, remove EPROMs. I can't tell you how to adjust the timer because mine hasn't got one, but I believe it's a small screwdriver adjustment.

I noticed after a while the UV was seriously attacking the case plastic under the tube, so I stuck some aluminum foil in the bottom of the channel under the tube to protect the plastic and reflect more of the UV onto the EPROMs.

I will put some foil in mine when it arrives. Does using the foil shorten the time necessary to erase the chips, and does shorting all of the legs together have any effect?

Thanks for the picture. That actually fulfills most of my reasons for wanting a user guide. I wanted to know the tube number for long-term replacement needs (it appears that I will be able to read that off my tube when it arrives), and to either get an idea of the of the µW/cm² rating of the lamp (also should be able to get this from the tube info) or to have a guide to erasure timing for different chips (I can convert these figures from other manufacturer's data as long as I know the rating of this lamp).

Not having a timer, I don't have a scientific way of knowing how long it takes to erase. I leave chips in for "a few" minutes, where "a few" means "until I remember to take them out". All I can say is I have never taken a chip out of it and found it not erased.

The foil is in the bottom, under the tube, not up top with the chips. It doesn't short the legs, though if it did, it wouldn't affect them. I don't know how much it adds to the efficiency but if it was a lot, I imagine the manufacturer would have thought of it.

I thought I'd post this fantastic picture of what the UV eraser window glass on a eprom looks like when magnified 60X.
Look at those tiny wires....wow :50-

Double click on picture to really see it!

 :160- "mmmm..... pretty colors...."   :161-

"Wow, so, like, um, how do they find people with such teeny hands to like, totally weave and solder all those itty-bitty wires?" :127- :30- :96- :97- :97- :97-


Seriously, that is a cool picture SB, thanks for posting. :71-

Cool pic Mark!
I liked it so much I stole it.  :30- :30-
Makes a great avatar!  :71-

Oh my pig is SO jealous. He's afraid I'll dump him for a pretty chip face. I did save the file yesterday, so it could turn up one day. :97- :97-

Never dump the pig.

Funny my motherinlaw said the same thing to me.......  :72-

 :97- :97- :97- :97- :97- :97- :30- :30- :30- :30- :30-

That just about says it all. :96- :127-

Should I start a "Name the Pig" contest?

 :97-
sooo funny

Okay,

                    ****BREAKIN' NEWS UPDATE****

The eprom eraser came in today....you guys were right on the money...it's the cheapest, flimsiest thing you'd see...
But ,   you know what?  After baking two AM27C512's in it for 20 minutes ("2 on the dial")
I threw the chips in the GQ-4X and the programmer confirmed that the chips were indeed blank....

I'm pleased with it so far...I think it'll work perfect for this amazing hobby we all enjoy...


*****OKAY, back to our irregular programming schedule>>>the comedian's funny hour******

Now you just need to try less and less exposure time to see what the lowest interval to blank them is...

In the interests of saving money on my monthly electric bill, I will try that...however, I quote this from reply #98>>

[The thing I mainly object to is HSW saying you can over-erase an EPROM. You cannot over-erase an EPROM. Once the charges are gone from the floating gate, you cannot remove any more charges, even if you leave it in the eraser for a year. I know where they got it from - you can over-erase a Flash ROM, because Flash is erased electrically by reversing the programming process and you must be careful not to leave the gate with a positive floating charge. But this isn't a danger with EPROMs.]

I stand by that. In a previous life I worked for a company that made EPROM programmers.

I was speaking from the perspective of being one of those "Instant-gratification" types, I hate waiting around! :5- :5- :72- :72-

That eraser ought to do it in under 5 minutes for most chips. For reliability, you should leave the chip in the eraser for twice the minimum time. If it reads blank after two minutes, erase it for 4 minutes. Otherwise it may stay partly programmed and give trouble with some low values of Vcc. FWIW, when the programmer programs a chip it applies pulses until it sees the location programmed, then gives it more pulses to make sure. The algorithm varies but can be as much as four times over. It is also programmed at a high level of Vcc, usually between 6 and 7 volts, to make sure it will stay reliably programmed at 5V.

Quote[I was speaking from the perspective of being one of those "Instant-gratification" types, I hate waiting around!] End quote


It's no problem really, I ate dinner while the eproms were cooking!  :96-

I just got a UV Eprom Eraser from knightdiscounts as seen on ebay:
Eprom Eraser (http://cgi.ebay.com/EPROM-ERASER-Ultraviolet-UV-Lamp-Light-w-Timer-NEW-USA_W0QQitemZ130290179044QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item130290179044&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318)

I did not buy off ebay however.  :60- I went directly to his website at knightdiscounts.com (http://knightdiscounts.com/) and ordered from there.
He has a Free Shipping Policy if order totals over $20. So I bought the Eraser and a cheap $2 game for my kids. Total was less than $21 so it cost less
to order direct. The eraser is the same cheap over seas unit you see on ebay but I suspect it will work for MY tinkering. I'm still waiting for some eproms
to arrive so I give it a go.

It's a real cheap one TJ, but I 've had good luck with it thus far...I haven't a clue how long it'll last though...I hope we'll be laughing about this ten years from now.... :96-

I got the same eraser from eBay... it seems to work too-- I have loaded up 7 chips at a time and 30minutes later.. blank!

Okay guys, I got my GQ-4X and it works great.

The only problem is that is came with a USB2 driver in a subdirectory. I read both readme files, which said to install the USB driver before installing the main software.
I followed the directions, but there was no installing it. I rolled back using system restore and tried a few times in reverse order, according to directions, and everything else I could think of, including downloading the latest copy of the driver from their site (the INF file was identical).

When I tried to install the new USB driver I got an error stating that one of the segments of the INF file was invalid.

Did anyone else have this problem? Did anyone else install the new USB driver?

When you open the software, the USB driver version is displayed in the message window:

I'm not even sure if having the newer driver would make any difference, but it takes my programmer about 30 seconds to burn a 512k chip. That would mean 8 minutes to burn an 8M chip, which seems pretty slow to me. :103- :103-

If you are running Vista or Windows 7 you need a signed driver or disable signed driver enforcement, XP should not care.

ADD: I had to turn off driver signing enforcement in Windows 7.
It said iit couldnt load the driver either for my GQ-2X, it did once I booted with Signed Driver Enforcement disabled.

 

I'm using XP. It kept telling me that a segment of the inf was invalid. The downloaded version was identical to the one that they put on the cd, and the forum section didn't have much.

Here is the thread that I found. They didn't solve the problem; they only had him use the old driver.
http://www.mcumall.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1920 (http://www.mcumall.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1920)

I'm wondering how much speed I'm losing because I'm being forced to use the old version?

I realize this is an old thread, but all of the talk of using 'offsets' etc. when using a 27C512 is overcomplicating things. The simplist way to do it is just use the copy command with the /b (binary switch).

Where 1.bin is the name of the source 8k bin and 27512.bin is the output file in the example below. Make it a batch file and one click and you have an instant 27C512 file with 8 duplicate pages.

copy /b 1.bin+1.bin+1.bin+1.bin+1.bin+1.bin+1.bin+1.bin 27512.bin /b

Sorry if this was already posted, but I scanned over most of the thread and only saw more complicated ways to do it.

Neat shortcut poppo! Thanks for letting us know how to do it!  :3-

Good suggestion poppo. I don't think it's been posted previously, mostly because we don't seem to have many members who are DOS literate.

For the most part, I've been suggesting using HxD to members who have asked how to create paged files.



For the more advanced users, if you know which page the hardware is reading, you can insert a single copy of the file on that page and set the rest of the pages to 0x00 or leave them as 0xFF.

For example, the Gamemaker v7000 mains (4mb) read the top page on an 8mb chip. I believe that the graphics files (2mb) do as well on 4mb and 8mb. In other words, all of the extra address pins have power.

The S+ reads reel chips (64k) on page 7 of 8 on a 512k chip.

Of course, it's not really necessary to worry about all this. Burning a file with 8 copies of the same data is no big deal. I'm just anal, :200- which everyone around here already knows.  :5- :30- :97- :97-

Frequency is the reciprocal of time so using a device with an access time of 55 ns the maximum speed would be 18.18 Mhz. The slowest device that you would be able to use (without introducing wait states) is 62.25 ns

The short answer, yes 55 ns is acceptable for a 16Mhz board

Did we set a new reply record?  :5-    2 years, 3 months, 3 weeks, less a day. :200- :30- :72- :72-


As long as we're here, it also depends on how many clock cycles occur between reads. Otherwise, by a 1:1 calculation, a 10MHz S+ would require a chip of 100ns or faster, and 200ns chips work in that board. I'm certain that 110ns (and probably slower) chips will work in a 16MHz S+ board.

Stat :31-

Holy Moly dhellis!!
I've been waiting for your answer for quite awhile...thanks!
When did they let you out of Alcatraz?  :200- :96-

That's my motto too...better late than never  :5-

Just got out today LOL


Apparently I paid not attention to the date of your question and since no one gave you an answer, I though what the heck.

NOW I getting ribbed for being the quickest draw on the board ;)

haha! Welcome to NewLifeGames dhellis!!!!  :136-

It's not ALL serious here but we DO like to try to help out each other!  :89-

Dhellis, thought you could use a virtual towel to dry yourself off, so I gave you a :259- karma for jumping right into the deep end of our pool.  :5-  :127-

Oh, yeah, and  :238-    :88-      :72- :72- :72-


Stat :31-

Thanks,
My wife said that she will scrape the egg  :279- off of my face and that I can have them for breakfast.

I'm late looking @ this thread but went through all & it's a good one.
THANK ALL YOU GUYS FOR YOUR POSTS. REAL HELPFULL

Wow! Holy Thread revival fordsbs! :25-
That was when that Statfreak guy kept picking on me... :208-