809 payout weirdness continues...

[profmike]

OK, I'm back again. I've been desperately trying to fix this thing without monopolizing the EM forum, but I'm at my wits end, so here goes:
First, the good news: now that the mech is adjusted properly, the action of the machine is smooth, no squeaky reels, very little coil buzz, etc...
BUT the payout problem continues. And again, the Bally guide to EM book is pretty useless, as the schematic given is for a "standard 809"...cherries through bells, then single, double and triple bars.
My machine is an 809-N....so the payouts are cherries through bells, then single bars 20, melons 50, stars 100, and Money Honey 200 [numbers are payouts for first coin played]. (refer to pic in my other post if that confuses anyone)....so the wiring is different... but I'm not asking for a schematic (anyone have one laying around...ha ha?), because I think the problem is still "something" mechanical.
The machine plays, steps and pays correctly....EXCEPT for plum, plum/bar and also stars. NO pay at all on those. I've cleaned the contacts with a scotchbrite pad, lubed them lightly with gun oil, and checked the wiper arms. Everything seems to be in order (reel 3 needed a slight adjustment...but I don't think that's the issue now).
I'm thinking it's still a mechanical problem somewhere...I just can't figure out what the heck it is at this point.
*With the door open and the machine on, I've been playing it, and lining up winners. When I get to plums or stars, nothing....and then today, for no particular reason, after lining up the plums, I took a long shank screwdriver and pushed the wiper on reel one very slightly back (the metal bracket that holds the wipers...not the copper contacts) towards the rear of the machine. THAT started to initiate a pay! It also startled me, so I released the wiper and the machine stopped paying. I played it again, lined up plums....nothing...and again, by [using the screwdriver] gave a little push rearward on the reel one wipers...bell goes off, machine starts to pay.
Any idea what the heck is going on now? This really makes no sense, because if you look at the schematics, a plum pay should be exactly where the wiper contacts are touching....by pushing it back, and we're talking maybe 1/4"...it's initiating a pay.
I don't want to adjust those wipers without posting and asking, as if I move them back one whole set of contact points, isn't that going to throw off the whole payout of the machine?
I haven't tried it with a "star' pay but am assuming the result would be the same....and please remember, this is reel 1, not the old squeaky reel 3. Also, I can't try the screwdriver push on reels two and three...the shank on the driver isn't long enough.
Ummmm...ideas, anyone?
Thanks again,
Mike

[OldReno]

Hi ProfMike,
We missed ya.
Here's what I'd do;
Pull out the reel mech.  Move each reel wiper to the deepest cut, for all 3 reels.
that should be your highest pay.  Look on the back side of each reel board to be sure that the wipers are hitting onto contacts that are wired. Put a little mark with a sharpie above where the wipers hit on the front side.  Call that position 1.
Then map out each pay on each reel, and write down what the symbol is, and what the position is relative to position 1.  You should be able to chart out your reel cuts and pay symbols that way.
Make sure that you inspect each cut to see that the wipers hit cleanly and are fairly centered on the buttons.
That's what I'd do.
If everything's hunky dorey, then it's something else.
How are the contacts on your hopper board?  With plums on the centerline, reach down and wiggle the little horseshoe that sticks out of the front left side of the hopper (your carriage), and see if that initiates the pay.
When you pushed back the reel wipers with your screwdriver, you probably were making contact for another type of pay.  Try it again, let it finish paying completely to find out what you are contacting.
Nice to see you back, and don't worry about monopolizing us....

[profmike]

Hi OldReno,
Thanks....nice to be missed ...and I don't want to be one of those people who over-post, though I am grateful for the help.
I guess I see how I'll be spending my Sunday...just don't tell my editor; I'm already five chapters behind on the textbook I'm supposed to be writing (its new title: "The Blank Page.")....
Anyway, I'll do as you suggest with the mech/sharpie. (just an additional FYI- I have tried setting the machine to ALL plum/bar combos)...but no matter; I'll pull the mech and have some "fun" with this.
Question- actually two questions.
****1) if pushing back with the screwdriver initiates a pay, that next set of contacts back are the bell ones, so why the #$@& are they energized at all????? (I'll re-check this and try to keep the screwdriver in position to see exactly what the payout is...but the electrical aspect of that leaves me scratching my head...it makes no sense unless something is shorted)

- and I still think this is something mechanically out of whack from the initial non-reel-spin problem i was having. I must have pulled and re-installed that mech at least 100 times already!!!!!


And 2) If there's no power to the machine (mech sitting on workbench as usual), and assuming there's no wiring issue, would a continuity check do me any good? E.G. Plum contact on reel 1 should have continuity with the contact on reel 3, correct?????

I'll also check the hopper carriage and the contacts. I haven't had occasion to touch that at all during all this fun, so it's quite possible something's funky down there. I'll try anything at this point.

I guess, OldReno, that you should consider yourself "lucky" that the 809 is back east and not at my LV house, or I'd borrow a pickup truck and be on my way north right now!!!!!

Update to follow....thanks again...sigh....
Mike

[OldReno]

Here's how I see it happens:  50V comes in on the grey wire(s) into the 3rd reel board.  If there is a complete circuit, through all 3 reels, then the hopper turns on.  This 50V is active anytime the machine is on (except during handle pull and coin in sequence) and always during idle state.  If you pull the reel mech, and set up a pay, then when you put it back in it will pay.  In other words the mech is always hot, but only will pay when the contacts jibe.  When you push back on a wiper, you are probably making contact on something like a cherry or lower pay.  Hence, it pays. If I recall, generally the higher pays are the deeper cuts, and the lower pays shallower.  As you should find out when you map out your pays.
A bench continuity check should work fine.  Start at grey wire on 3rd reel, and find the appropriate wire going out of 1st reel.
Did the machine pay correctly before you started dicking with it?

Hey, I'd be pleased to see you pull up (on vacation) with your machine in the back of your truck.  Could even put you up a few days.
Until then, however, thou should'st work on thy book..............methinks, as a break from working on the 'machine'.

[Amachanic]

Mike.

         I was wondering what's the condition your wirper contacts? Are they worn down flat? The only reason I ask is because I picked up an older Bally EM last year. I never could get it to pay out correct. I found that two of the silver contacts were totally worn off. I've been looking for a replacement wiper but so far no luck. I didn't realize how many different type of wiper contact there are. I think mine has 8 contacts, it's a 4 reel model like a Continental but done in a card theme from 8 to Aces. Kind of cool, hope someday to figure it out. It would only payout on a few combination due to the worn out #1 wiper. 

Gary

[profmike]

Mike.

         I was wondering what's the condition your wirper contacts? Are they worn down flat? The only reason I ask is because I picked up an older Bally EM last year. I never could get it to pay out correct. I found that two of the silver contacts were totally worn off. I've been looking for a replacement wiper but so far no luck. I didn't realize how many different type of wiper contact there are. I think mine has 8 contacts, it's a 4 reel model like a Continental but done in a card theme from 8 to Aces. Kind of cool, hope someday to figure it out. It would only payout on a few combination due to the worn out #1 wiper. 

Gary

Hi Gary,
Thanks for posting...sounds like a nice machine you have there. Good luck finding the parts. Mine has 9 wipers...I don't think the contacts are worn flat; it's a pretty clean mech...but when I pull the mech next time to check the reels/ wiper indexing, I'll take a much closer look. -who knows, that might be the problem...I'm ready for anything at this point!
Mike

[profmike]

Did the machine pay correctly before you started dicking with it?
Hey, I'd be pleased to see you pull up (on vacation) with your machine in the back of your truck.  Could even put you up a few days.
Until then, however, thou should'st work on thy book..............methinks, as a break from working on the 'machine'.

Hi OldReno,
Thanks again for the additional tips. I'll try everything you suggested, and also do a continuity check. I'll get to the bottom of this sooner or later. And yes, the machine always played perfectly before I started dicking with it (love the high-tech term)! I'm pretty sure I must have knocked something out of whack when I was constantly pulling the mech and adjusting to get the reels spinning...but who knows???

Also, thanks for the invite- careful though, I might just take you up on it one of these days!!! :-)  ...and as usual, you're right...I need to get out of machine mode and get a few chapters done on this textbook. The deadline for the completed project is April, so I've been procrastinating...but time does fly. Not going to get rich from it, but it's something to put on the CV...the snobs in academe have a saying "publish or perish"...I'd much rather the former! You're correct- I should be writing...think of all the pages I'd have finished already if my machine had been behaving...
More on the good ol' 809 soon...
Mike

[OldReno]

 So pm me. What's your book about?

[profmike]

OK....I haven't had too much time to work on the 809, but I have tried all the OldReno suggestions....(yes, I even used a sharpie and marked all the cuts).....no matter what I've tried, still NO PAYOUT on plums or stars. I have cleaned and re-cleaned the wipers and contacts...they seem ok (?), and the machine works fine except for those two pays. I obtained a schematic from Foxslots....helpful, but I think my problem is still mechanical.
*To initiate a pay on plums, I still need to push back the wipers two steps (to the 2 cherry payout contacts)...when I do that, it pays out five coins. If i do it again, it pays out another five. Total ten, not fourteen...and any more pushing doesn't help, as at that point the machine is ready for a new play. (and also, pushing on the wipers on reels two and three doesn't do anything at all)...
No loose wires. Hopper and hopper board seem fine. I'm thinking it has something to do with the reel 1 wiper arms or the contact plate?????
I also did find an old note inside the machine I wrote in 2002, which says "no pay above cherries, adjusted 3rd wiper arm. 7/15/2002."
Scratching my head here, and hoping for another suggestion. It has to be something stupid (like its owner...ha ha)...
HELP!!!!
Thanks,
Mike
PS- on an "up" note, while I was toying with the 809, I hit the "play 3 credits" on my sizzling 7s and got the jackpot! Yay...except now I need a new hopper motor....sigh.....

[mark the spark]

i would go back to renos post and check continuity from reel 3 through reel 2 and reel 1 then down to the reel mech plug with a 14 win lined up
if you look at the wire on the 14 pay on the hopper that wire color should be the same through the hopper plug cab side and up to the reel mech plug
check the reel fingers for continuty the top finger should be the 50v the next down should be 14 pay there might be a loose /broken connection as reno states pushung the fingers back is lining them up with a cherry win
if that dont help then 

[profmike]

i would go back to renos post and check continuity from reel 3 through reel 2 and reel 1 then down to the reel mech plug with a 14 win lined up
if you look at the wire on the 14 pay on the hopper that wire color should be the same through the hopper plug cab side and up to the reel mech plug
check the reel fingers for continuty the top finger should be the 50v the next down should be 14 pay there might be a loose /broken connection as reno states pushung the fingers back is lining them up with a cherry win
if that dont help then 

Thanks, Mark...I may have missed something; is the story of my gameroom life these days!!!!! I get drunk just looking at the machine! I'll re-check. I found that many of the wires are re-spliced and not the correct color all the way through the circuit(s)...real pain in the butt & hardly any time to mess with it. I'll get out the old meter again and re-check. I really hope the fingers aren't screwed...mine has a 9 finger setup...not easy to find. Let's see what happens. I'll see if I get a spark, Mark! :-)

[mark the spark]

i sure you might want to check just the first 2 fingers the top finger should be 50v the next finger down will be the plum out from reel 3 to reel 2 and so on if you look at the marshall fey book at page 22 its quite a good pic the numbers are or should be the wire colours and it shows a plum pay 14

[profmike]

Thanks a lot Mark...now I feel like a total dolt! I've had that book sitting on my desk right here since the problems began...but it's been opened to page 62 for the longest time (when the problem first started, I had no spin on a handle pull). After finally fixing that problem, that's when the payout problems began. Perfect...I'll take that downstairs with me when I re-check again. The wire colors are still slightly off due to the payouts on my machine (and whomever spliced it up over the years), but that page is definitely a jackpot in and of itself. Duh. Sitting right next to me all this time!!!!!
I'm sure I screwed things up pulling and re-inserting the mech trying to get it to trip correctly. Guess I should be happy it worked fine from'02 till now!
Will post updates when I mess with it again (or start dicking with it, to quote OldReno)...
Mike

[OldReno]

So, at one time did it pay on plums and stars?

[profmike]

So, at one time did it pay on plums and stars?

Hi OldReno-
The answer is...YES!!!! It payed perfectly on everything including plums and stars until the no-spin problem began. Once in a blue moon it would under-pay one coin, but that was the extent of it...
Mike