GameMaker Internal Progressive system malfunctions

[StatFreak]

Has anyone here ever heard of or seen a GM internal progressive system go off it's nut?  Before I start posting my long-winded and detailed explanation, I was wondering if anyone else has ever experienced a malfunctioning progressive system who might be able to help diagnose my issues. 

I am currently using 22 Mains (multi-denom). Would this be more likely to be a software issue or a board issue? I'm thinking software.

[jay]

Malfunction voids all pays....

[StatFreak]

Okay. Here's the explanation then.

The entire progressive system is adding completely incorrect amounts to the meters. However, the errors are completely consistent and repeatable ad nauseum.

For the sake of example, lets say that I set every progressive controller to increment by 1.00%.
Let's call the amount that the progressive would add for a single coin "1 progressive unit." or 1 PU. (Yes, the pun is intentional)

If everything were working correctly, one should expect to have 1PU added for every coin wagered.
e.g.,
coins bet       PU's added
    1                    1
    2                    2
    3                    3
    ..                    ..
   20                   20

Or, to put it another way, if the progressive is set to 1% and I'm playing a dollar denomination, the progressive should increase by 1 cent for every coin played.

Here's what I get, as closely as I can figure it, for the coin amounts that I've tested. I actually increased the progressive percentage to 10% to magnify what was going on:

coins bet       PU's added
    1                    1
    2                    2
    3                    0.4             (yes, that's less than 1/2 of a coin's worth of credit)
    4                    1¹/₂            Actually, just a shade under. I can't tell exactly how much. ~1.475 ? 
    5                    2.425
    6                    ⁷/₈     (0.875)
    7                    1⁷/₈   (1.875)

   18                   <0.003 (This number is so small that I thought that the progressive on my 18 coins game was broken altogether.
                                     After 20 plays at 18 coins it didn't even advance 1 cent! It should have advanced $3.60.
                                     Then I played 2 coins ONCE and it advanced 2 cents, just as it should have.)
   20                   ~0.5


I have tried setting all 25 progressive meters. I have set them to Standard and to Mystery. I have used poker, slot, blackjack, and keno games. I have tried different personality (game) chips. The system increments this way across all games, all controllers, and both progressive types.

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In addition, there is another minor glitch. If I have two or three poker games, and one has five progressives, but another has only three (all eight using separate controllers), the machine with three will "borrow" the two lower progressive display amounts from the game with five progressives and display them in positions four and five in the game, along with the three valid progressive amounts.

This is ONLY a display error. The game with five progs still increments all five of it's progressives, and the game with three only increments its three progressives. The other two are just displayed (with the other game's values) - overwriting the correct coin payouts that should be listed. When the three-progressive poker hits one of the two mis-labeled wins, it pays the correct coin for the game, not the displayed prog amount.

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Can anyone shed some light here? I've checked all settings many times over with the paperwork in my hands, and it is NOT a setup mistake, at least not in the progressive area.

[a69mopar]

Did you try any other version of mains in it and if so was it the same?

W

[ricker]

Stat, talk about confussing.  I assume you are using game chip for only one denomination. I assume these games are not the ones developed for the 7200(ie. pick-ems, improve your hand, or triple chance) Might make a difference.      So.............what smi# are you using. I suppose it could be a software problem, but I'm thinking the progressive controller info is stored on board and not mains.  Having no problems with progressive setup, so you say, screen shots(multiple) of your "Internal Progressive Controller Setup" and your "Progressive Win Level Setup" may help. You can post or email.

Ricker

[StatFreak]

Did you try any other version of mains in it and if so was it the same?

W

I haven't yet. That was my next step.

[StatFreak]

Stat, talk about confussing.  I assume you are using game chip for only one denomination. I assume these games are not the ones developed for the 7200(ie. pick-ems, improve your hand, or triple chance) Might make a difference.      So.............what smi# are you using. I suppose it could be a software problem, but I'm thinking the progressive controller info is stored on board and not mains.  Having no problems with progressive setup, so you say, screen shots(multiple) of your "Internal Progressive Controller Setup" and your "Progressive Win Level Setup" may help. You can post or email.

Ricker

I did set them up for one denomination, but I do still have a multi-denominational setup, and a Pick 'Em poker and a Let It Ride installed. On the other hand, the machine did this with the original games that it came with as well.

I thought I had read somewhere on the board that the V7000 and V7200 were the same, except for the dbv placement?
I'll take some shots of the progressive setup in it's current state (at this point I have 23 of the 25 set up I believe) and post them shortly.

After I post them I'm going to try a full clear and set the entire machine up for a single denomination and see if that makes any difference. (setting things up again and re-testing will take some time..) Then I'll try some new Mains.

[stayouttadabunker]

I read this whole thread and it kills me that I can't help you Stat...I know nothing about Gamemakers

[StatFreak]

Here are the pictures.

1. Max Value. I entered 99,999,999.99 and this was the machine's self chosen limit.


Internal setup (3 pics)


Note: I removed controllers 14 and 15. They were setup for Double Bonus Poker (and worked there) but were being displayed in Pick Em Poker as well (just display only).
Also, I entered the second increment for Goldmine slots because nothing was happening. It didn't make any difference. (See above post about 18 coins played)



Controller edit (3 pics)




External Controllers


Game Enable  (Triple Trouble Poker has no progressive)


Game configuration list


Keno, none set.


Goldmine slot setup (2 pics)



Let It Ride setup


Double Bonus Poker setup (Note: Win levels 4 and 5 were originally set up for controllers 14 & 15. They worked fine here, but also displayed in Pick Em Poker)


Blackjack setup


Blazing Sevens setup


Pick Em Poker setup  (controllers 14 and 15 were displaying here for levels 4 and 5, but were set up for Double Bonus Poker)


Way Keno Mystery setup


Crazy Clowns slot Mystery setup


Keno Mystery setup

[StatFreak]

I'm going to do a full Saferam clear and set the entire machine up for a single denomination to see if that fixes this issue.

[ricker]

There should be no problem with multi-denom, except that the game you set up with the progressives can only have one denom. You do not want to  have the progressive assigned to a game with more than one denomination as the progressive amount is the same. Doesn't make sense to have  a progressive start at say "Royal Flush" for $1000.00 on a quarter game. If the same game chip is used for any other denom. the royal will still start at $1000.00  at .01 or any other denom. If you do then the percentage added will be wrong. You can have the same game in the other denom's with no progressive, but a second chip must be accessed, in a different P location.

ricker

I've seen you post  of screen shots. Everything looks fine. I have never used any entries in the  "hidden amount" column, and I have never assigned a controller to more than one payoff. Don't know if it matters.

I off to bed................will check back in morning..............good luck as your clear will wipe it all out.

[StatFreak]

Thanks riker.

I set the entire machine up as $1 only (no more denom buttons or currency credit. ) and the progressive percentages work as they should.

I did set up Triple Trouble poker as multi-denom and the kenos too the first time around, although TTP had no progressive. The kenos might have been my error. The mystery progressive does depend on the amount wagered, but doesn't tie to the game payouts, so I thought I was safe there. I figured that if I played keno at a different denomination that it would advance the mystery progressive by a proportionately smaller amount (with the same starting and max values, or course) I didn't figure that they'd screw up the progressive addition for every other game.

So now I'll try setting up multi-denominations again and leave keno out of the mystery pays and see what happens.


The problem with poker progressives displaying where they shouldn't still persists, so you might be right on the money with that issue as well. So just what are the differences between the mpu board for the V7000 and the V7200? (aside from the dbv stuff) My v7000 board seems to run any game that I put in it, other than v8000 Game Magic themes.

Do I need to get a V7200 board to solve these progressive display issues? Will that board work with my v7000 dbv setup?

K+'s all around for the help.

[StatFreak]

...I have never used any entries in the  "hidden amount" column, and I have never assigned a controller to more than one payoff. Don't know if it matters.
...

I was reading about the "hidden amount". What it really does is set up a two-tiered ladder progressive that just doesn't display the lower amount to the player. I've seen open versions of these in casinos. In fact, the $4k progressive that I won on Double Dollars was one of these. Both amounts incremented with each coin played and they just split the progressive percentage between them. The net effect is that the full percentage is won by the customer because each meter goes two cycles before paying off. It's an interesting sales gimmick, though. (and in my case at Harrah's, it really  paid off! The lower tier in my case was only about $2000)

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The mystery progressive is interesting. For each cycle, the computer picks a random amount between (and including) your base amount and max amount. It then increases the progressive amount by the percentage indicated until the progressive amount reaches the randomly chosen value. It then hits and resets with a new random value.

This lets you completely control how often the progressive will hit, and how much you want to give back to the customer. Very cool for home use. I set mine up for $500 max, $100 min, and 4.67% increment (10% posted above was for testing). That gave me a nominal  7% payback*, which brought the Keno from 92.7 to 99.7%.


*To calculate the payback on the Mystery progressive, you have to take into account the starting value. You do the calculations based on the long-term expected hit value that is half way between your values (median).

So in my case, it will hit at $300 on average in the long run, having been incremented $200 @ a 4.67% contribution. That translates to an average of $4282.66 in play. But since the average payback will be $300, dividing returns a nominal payback of 7.005%.

What's cool about these is that the randomly chosen amount could be $100.10, in which case one would hit the progressive back to back within moments! Of course, it could be set as high as $500, in which case the player would have had to wager $8565.31 to hit it. To figure out how many plays that would typically be, divide by the cost of max coin play. So for a 7 coin keno game the average expected hit frequency would be once every 612 plays, and the longest drought would be 1224 plays.

By using these figures, one can set these mystery progressives to hit as often as one wants, and for any desired average amount. Cool.

[a69mopar]

The main board is the same in a v7000 or v7200.

W

[StatFreak]

Well, the good news is that with the keno out of the picture and all other games set to a single denomination, the progressives advanced as they were supposed to.

The mediocre news is that the invalid progressive amounts still showed up in the wrong games. Now I admit to being a bit confused because Ricker mentioned that differences between games developed for the 7000 and games developed for the 7200 (like Pick Em Poker) could make a difference, and these were the games that were malfunctioning. But then a69mopar said that the 7000 and 7200 boards were the same. That got me thinking that I ought to try newer software.

The graphics that were installed in the machine when I got it were as old as dirt, GU10 v1.2, and I had already received a rude message that they were too old when I tried installing Blackjack Plus, so I decided to upgrade to the Borgata cards, GU18. -14. There was a slight issue with the 22 Mains where the cards could only be drawn in the standard short version (the Borgata cards are longer), and this caused some minor graphics issues at the bottom of the cards. Not a big deal.

Besides, I figured that since I still had the issue of incorrect progressive values showing up in the wrong games that I would upgrade the mains to version 24. I did...

The 24 Mains are COOL. They allow both multi-denomination AND tokenization, so I set up both. Nice new graphics, a faster playing machine, tokenized coins, installed my Blackjack Plus... what more could I ask for?

...until I went to set up my progressives... There are NO CONTROLLERS!!     

I selected Legacy in the original setup. The only thing that I can think of was that I selected No SAS, since these chips don't require it to be enabled. Could that be it?

I'm so close to having this machine set up the way I'd like...   

[stayouttadabunker]

No matter what,
It looks you're having an interesting time trying to figure out the new toy
and we're learning from your posts in the process.....everybody wins on this Stat!

[StatFreak]

Now that part is true. I've really been enjoying the tinkering part, changing software and seeing the different looks that this machine can have, just not the non-working progressive/non-existent progressive part.

I hope that someone has an answer because the 24 mains are very nice. What's weird is that they actually pay slower than the 22 mains, but they play a heck of a lot faster.  
I find that odd, because casino operators would want the win credits to add up faster to keep the player LOSING -- er, playing -- without being slowed down by those pesky wins.

I set my machine up with a $25 coin value (it's a nickel machine), and $0.25, $1, $2, and $5 denominations. I was going to set up four of the games as progressives; three at $1 and one at $0.25 with the other six at all denominations. If only there were some controllers handy..

[ricker]

I'm thinking the 24 mains have no progressive controllers, because the use of these in the real world, casinos, are no longer used. Perhaps not enough room to include in the software.  I don't think I've ever seen GM's with stand alone progressives in a casino, allthough with the turnover of machines nowdays, it's hard to find the older 7000-7200 models even there. I never meant that there was a real difference between the 7000 and 7200 boards. Probably just a change in production, hence different #'s. In some of the old threads, a mention was made that the "semi" multihand pokers would only work with the newer mains/graphics, probably in conjunction with the model production change.  Sure would be nice if a retired Bally employee in the know would show up here.  I think you can add the winning credits faster by pushing the max bet button.

Richard

[StatFreak]

It looks like you're right about the 24 mains.   I tried turning on SAS but it didn't make any difference. So I can't have tokenization, multi-denomination, and progressives at the same time.

You mentioned the multi-hand games. I tried every multi-hand Pick Em Poker with the 22's and none would work. I wasn't sure if it was the mains, the old graphic chips, or the 13" monitor that was doing me in (I thought that perhaps they only supported multi-hand games with the graphics chips designed for the 19" monitors.)

I think I'll play with what I have for a while and then switch to the 23's. Or I might go back to the 22's and try another v1.7 or later set of graphics chips to find ones that work well with those mains. The newer Borgata v1.8 graphics chips let me put Blackjack Plus back in. The graphics are snazzy, and I might try 10-hand Pick Em Poker again and see what happens.

At least I know that the progressive problem was the result of setting one of the games to multiple denominations with a mystery progressive. It kind of sucks that the system would be so finicky as to corrupt the entire system over a single detached controller. I still don't know if I can find a fix for the inappropriately displayed progressive amounts. It may be that Bally never designed the older and newer poker games to play well together in the progressive sandbox, regardless of the mains used.

One of these days I'm going to put a poker tournament chip in this thing and see how that goes! Despite a few setbacks I'm really having fun trying different setups with this machine. I'd be embarrassed to admit how much imaginary money I've lost in just three weeks.    I'd have lost even more if it had Triple Double Bonus Poker.

Thanks for your help Richard.

P.S. I'm out of Karma ammo right now. I'll have to give you another later this evening.

[ricker]

Perhaps it's time for a second main board. One could be for multi-denom(v-24 mains), and the other for single denom progressives(v-20). Both are the token mains.  Richard

[tacman]

If I remember correctly the later Gamemaker multi-hand poker games required the 24 mains and I think the GU18 graphics chips.

 Dan (tacman)