trouble with Coin comparitor, please help

[poppo]

I tried moving from 4 to 5 and it did work.

Giving credits too?

[jbshocks]

sorry that should have said it didn't work.  I hooked 24 volts up to the comparitor in my hand and it properly routes per sample coin.  Going to set up a harness to do 24 volt in machine and see what happens.

update,  I rigged up 24 v to the comp and hooked the red wire up to the coin count out on the comp and connected my ground up from the 24v power source to the machine.  It will divert coins to the proper place but not count.  I see no light in the optic switch at all.  Shouldn't it light up?

[poppo]

I see no light in the optic switch at all.  Shouldn't it light up?

It could be IR.

Have you been able to trace those 3 other wires back to a source? Might help to rule them out as part of the coin count circuit.  Since this appears to be a replacement CC (due to it being the wrong voltage) that optic may not be part of the original setup. That bracket still has me thinking it was made for a micro-switch.

[jbshocks]

Does anyone know when the MC-40 came out?  I am convinced that this is the wrong comparitor and trying to determine what the correct one could have been.  I am guessing that MC40 is newer than this machine and could not be original.  Leaving a cc-40 as a logical choice just that I need one with proper voltage.  I am also convinced that this machine must use comparitor that has an optic since it has the red wire in pin 3.  That does not rule out the need for a switch but I see no sign that one had been screwed on.  The off set screws line up with micro switch mounting but the screws are 2 short to accommodate one and look original,  In fact they had no sign of ever being removed.   All 3 loose wires go back to the board but one is 110 volts so I can't image that being used in switching.  I would sure like to see what is in another CEI but it could be a long time before someone shows up with one.

[poppo]

I am also convinced that this machine must use comparitor that has an optic since it has the red wire in pin 3.  

What red wire, and on pin 3 of what? If you only have 3 wires going to the CC and 2 are for power, that only leaves one that would probably be an output. Most likely that output is pulsed low or high when a coin is detected. Can you put a meter on it and see what voltage is on it (in respect to ground) and if you can see if it pulsed when a coin is dropped. It may be as simple as connecting a drop switch to that line.  Note: that line 'should' be no more than 5VDC if it is being used as the coin-in signal.

[jbshocks]

Poppo,  There are actually 4 wires going to the CC  Black ground,  yellow power, then red coin out and grey tilt out.  Oddly Grey and red are tied together where the cc harness plugs into the main harness.  This looks factory.  I was thinking maybe coin in would go high and tilt go low.  Like coin in +5 and tilt -5.  I have put a  meter on gray and red separately to ground and get no voltage at all with or without a coin drop.  do you think I should give a 5 volt pulse between black and red and see what happens?   

[poppo]

Poppo,  There are actually 4 wires going to the CC  Black ground,  yellow power, then red coin out and grey tilt out.  Oddly Grey and red are tied together where the cc harness plugs into the main harness.  This looks factory.  I was thinking maybe coin in would go high and tilt go low.  Like coin in +5 and tilt -5.  I have put a  meter on gray and red separately to ground and get no voltage at all with or without a coin drop.  do you think I should give a 5 volt pulse between black and red and see what happens?  

I doubt any signal would go -5v. Almost all logic will be 0v or +5v

Are you measuring 0V with the wires connected to the CC? If so, try it with them disconnected (measure the wires). Often the signal is pulled low (0v) UNTIL the optic path is broken, and then it goes high (+5v) So if you have a shorted optic, it will never go high and register a credit. With the wire disconnected, there should be a pull-up resistor on the main board that will pull it up to +5v.

Note, you need to be doing this with the door closed (bypassed).

If the wire does measure +5V, then you can try pulsing it to ground and see what happens.

Note 2: I am speculating on some of this and only going by how some other optics work. I have no idea how this machine implemented anything.

[jbshocks]

I understand the speculation and appreciate your advice.  Will test this way later. 

[jbshocks]

Tested from Red coin out to ground and get 9 volts.  This is on the machine harness with coin comp unhooked.  I hooked up the coin comparitor to 12 volts dc (power wheels battery) and the red led light lit.  but it did not function.  I moved B+ to pin 5 and the comparitor part would function.  Hooked meter to Coin out (red wire pin 3) to ground pin 6  check voltage and nothing and check ohms and no change as coin drops.  I then tried to hook the machines power to the comp using pin 5 and 6 which was test before and it still did not work.  Hooked it back up to 12 volt battery with amp meter in series and the comp works again and measured 27 mili amps at rest and 30.5 mili amp when a coin drops.  I noticed in a couple cc-40 schematics that the 12 volt line is listed at 10 ma.  I am thinking that maybe there is something wrong with the comp causing it to draw to many amps. 

Going to ponder for a bit.

[poppo]

Tested from Red coin out to ground and get 9 volts.  This is on the machine harness with coin comp unhooked. 

And with it connected, you measured 0V correct? If so, did you try just tapping it to ground to see if it adds credits.

I would think this is safe if you are indeed measuring 0V with it connected to the CC, since it's obviously already being pulled low when connected.

[jbshocks]

I did tap to ground and no credits

[poppo]

Well, I am out of ideas. 

[uniman]

I hooked up the coin comparitor to 12 volts dc (power wheels battery) and the red led light lit.  but it did not function.  I moved B+ to pin 5 and the comparitor part would function. 
Hooked meter to Coin out (red wire pin 3) to ground pin 6  check voltage and nothing and check ohms and no change as coin drops. 
 I then tried to hook the machines power to the comp using pin 5 and 6 which was test before and it still did not work. 
Hooked it back up to 12 volt battery with amp meter in series and the comp works again ... 

Going to ponder for a bit.

I'm going to chime in again, for whatever it's worth. And I know nothing about CEI's.
But the key items I read in your post make it sound just like my older Uni's.

Ok, on older Uni's if the mpu board is not ready for coins to be deposited it breaks the ground to the comparitor.
When it is ready for coin-in it connects the ground AND it flashes the INCERT COINS lamp. Does CEI have an INCERT COINS lamp and is it flashing? How do you know if it is ready for play?
When the maximum coins are inserted and counted the Uni mpu board breaks the ground to prevent more coins being inserted. Since the CC-40 is non-inhibit it should work the same way.
Your statement that a 12v power source works but everytime you use pin 6 (ground) it doesn't. Check to see if pin 6 is actually grounded.

[jbshocks]

It does have an insert coin light and it is lit.  I might try a temp ground and see.  It also posts a code 50 which the book says means that the door had been opened but the machine is now ready to play and will clear on first play.

I did learn something valuable on this one.  Stay away from the rare and unknown.  At least I didn't pay much for it.  I can actually play 10 test games if I disconnect the handle lock out.  After that you can turn the jack pot rest and play 10 more. 

[poppo]

Your statement that a 12v power source works but everytime you use pin 6 (ground) it doesn't. Check to see if pin 6 is actually grounded.

Good catch. I missed that part. I had assumed that from post #3 where I had asked about it getting power:

voltage to it is 13.8  I tied back diverter and they just drop through

that the measurement was made at the comparator, and not from chassis ground.

[jbshocks]

voltage was checked at the comparitor harness  and even though it has 13 volts,  it will not light an automotive test light.  That makes me worry about the quality of the ground so when I go back out I plan to double the ground.

[poppo]

voltage was checked at the comparitor harness  and even though it has 13 volts,  it will not light an automotive test light.  That makes me worry about the quality of the ground so when I go back out I plan to double the ground.

On a lot of things like pinball machines and slots, items like lights etc are turned on by switching the ground (i.e. 6v goes to all lights and then a transistor applies a ground). So it is possible that you are reading the voltage because some amount of current will flow though the transistor, but not enough to turn the item on.

[jbshocks]

Poppo and Uni I think you got me pointed back in the right direction to investigate ground.  Oddly the frame and ground straps are not grounds for the MPU and I was afraid to look on the board with 110v lurking and no schematic so I traced the orange wire and discovered that it also runs the diverter  and reel knocker and I know the reel knocker works so first I see reel knocker says 24v.  I test it and 24 volts when it would have knocked.  I borrowed its ground and hooked it to the comp and now the comp lights up every time a reel stops (moved orange back to 24v pin)  I could test registering of coins because it all happens to quick. 

So then I trace the ground back to the back plane and and MPU and a darlington array.  The array looked suspiciously crispy  I then pull out one of the 2 junk boards that came with it and the same array is burned to a crisp.  The board I am using has 3 of this same array  and all 3 are removable, not so on the older boards I have.  So I swap to of them around and my problem moved.  I could not confirm that the coin comp was now working but I clearly broke something new.  Swap them back and I went back to where I was with all working except the comp. 

I have ordered a few of the arrays (uln2802a for any future CEI victims)  so hopefully Wednesday or Thursday this thing will work.  Crossing my fingers that those 3 unused wires aren't the next issue.

additional notes for future reference, the array that grounds the comp is U59.  Putting the bad array in U56 causes error e41r reel controller failure which the manual tells you to call CEI for a new MPU.

Thanks everyone.  This one is on hold for a few days.

[poppo]

You probably could still just jumper a ground to the CC to enable it all of the time.

[jbshocks]

Yeah! It works!  My order from digi key showed up today, I replaced the damaged array and it works.  It takes coins and pays out.  Someone screwed up the door switch which should be easy to fix.  It thinks the door is opened when closed and closed when open.  I think I now have the only documented functioning CEI Reel Slot.

[stayouttadabunker]

I think I now have the only documented functioning CEI Reel Slot.

Almost....Would you have a photograph of it in it's full glory?  

[poppo]

Glad you got it working. 

[jbshocks]

Here she is.  I already had 3 7's off the pay line but my son hit the respin button.

[poppo]

Shouldn't that big 25 cent legend below the reels be lit up? Maybe that is what those other 3 wires are for.

[jbshocks]

The 25 cent is part of the top glass not the door.  I did check and there is no light for it.  No room.