S+ EEPROM question

[poppo]

Someone refresh my memory. If one were to swap out just the motherboard/backplane (not the MPU) what would be the result? Just a 61 error or something simple to clear, or would all of the settings be lost? Or would it even require a clear chip to reset?

Let me explain what I am trying to do. Quite a while back before the forum lost eveything, there was a discussion about putting the EEPROM in a socket and then being able to switch out the EEPROM and MPU without having to reset anything when swapping games. I already have a spare MPU and a motherboard with a socketed EEPROM. I want to put this motherboard in to make sure it will work (with my existing MPU), but i want to know what to expect when the EEPROM does not have the right data in it. BTW, I can clear the EEPROM with my programmer first if it would help.

[stayouttadabunker]

I bought a whole bunch of those C024 eeproms for motherboard because
I thought it was going to become a problem....it hasn't... lol
I even have the 8-pin sockets too.

I think you'll lose the settings and accounting records as well as credits if it's pulled.
I'm not sure but I think it needs the MPU battery to help keep it's info and data.
When your machine "pauses" for a few seconds at every 100 pulls, it re-writing info onto that particular chip.
I will do tests in the AM and post back some results.

[poppo]

I think you'll lose the settings and accounting records as well as credits if it's pulled.

I'm not sure but I think it needs the MPU battery to help keep it's info and data.
When your machine "pauses" for a few seconds at every 100 pulls, it re-writing info onto that particular chip.
I will do tests in the AM and post back some results.

I don't care about the credits or accounting data, but the other settings. It's not that big of a deal to reset things, I just don't know if it would give a more simple 61 error or require a complete ram clear to fix.

I'm sure the MPU battery has nothing to do with it since you can pull the MPU and put it back in without losing anything.

[stayouttadabunker]

Is there anything stopping you from doing a few tests to see what happens? 
I'm nowhere near an S+ right now. 

[poppo]

Is there anything stopping you from doing a few tests to see what happens?  
I'm nowhere near an S+ right now.  

I can try it tomorrow. I mainly just wanted to know what to expect since this will be a different motherboard that has not been tested. I could get some sort of error not related to the eeprom and end up going off in the wrong direction.

And for some reason I had procured 24CO4 EEPROMS.  

<edit> At least this seems to confirm I have the right chips.

There is a CMOS RAM chip and a serial EEPROM in a S+
The CMOS RAM chip is next to the SP or GAME Chip on the MPU
The EEPROM is a 24C04 that is located on the motherboard or backplane board.

[stayouttadabunker]

Some guys strongly resist you using a clear chip for errors.
I have them but rarely even have the need to use it.

Most of the time it's just plain [60-something] error codes which you can
get out of easier than Harry Houdini from a straight jacket.

I always have "The Sheet" on the wall nearby to take a quick glance at when messing around with stuff...>>>

[stayouttadabunker]

more codes>>>

[poppo]

It looks like I most likely would get a 65_1 (bad EEPROM data) that just pressing the self test for a few seconds should clear. Of course if it's that easy to clear, then there would be no need to swap EEPROMS when swapping MPUs..

[stayouttadabunker]

Yes...if you look at the list - absolutely NONE of these errors ever require a Clear chip to clear... 

[poppo]

Yes...if you look at the list - absolutely NONE of these errors ever require a Clear chip to clear... 

True, but I have never heard of any bad things happening from doing a clear. I've done it several times when playing around with swapping game and reel chips. Probably didn't have to, but maybe it gets you to the 61 a little faster.

[brichter]

No, nothing bad happens. Except it wastes time programming all the settings back after you fix the problem that the clear chip didn't and then want to use the machine again... 

[stayouttadabunker]

Which begs the question...what are clear chips for then?  Fun?  

[poppo]

No, nothing bad happens. Except it wastes time programming all the settings back after you fix the problem that the clear chip didn't and then want to use the machine again... 

Well, if you are changing game chips, then most likely your settings are toast anyway. But in this case since we are only dealing with the EEPROM, it could indeed be a time waster. I'll find out later today just what happens with a EEPROM swap.

[jay]

A little antidotal information.

If you have an older chip like the 731 and change to the newer series of chips like the 1271 you get a a 65_x error.
The reason for this is that the registers in both CMOS's do not match the format in which the game chip wants to write.
The newer chips record a lot more accounting information and allow reporting. The way that the information was stored was also changed to accomodate the added info.
Clearing this error is very easy and it is as you described.
I think one of the functions of the new series of chips is that it checks the format of the CMOS and rewrites it as needed.

Sometimes going in reverse New to Old results in either an unclearable 65_x or a unclearable 61. I stess the word "sometimes". It has only ever happened once to me and I don't know why.
I attribute this to the older chips inability to deal with the newer structure but this is just a stab in the dark as it only ever happened once.
When you run the clear chip you are in essence reformatting the cmos. I suspect that if you used a burner to wipe the information from the CMOS you would also result in some unclearable errors until which point the clear chip was used.

The most common use of the clear chip has been an unclearable 61 error after the machine sat for a long period of time with a error 12 (Battery low). I have had several error 12s' changed the battery promptly and never had any problems.
In contrast we have had several members buy a machine from auction that had a 12 and after the battery was changed they were stuck on a unclearable 61.

To put this in perspective most casinos were never allowed to use a Clear Chip except in the presence of a gaming regulator as they didn't want to lose any of the accounting information.
The number of times you will ever be "required" to use a clear chip over the life of a slot is rare.

Most members on the forum say if you are buying a SET chip (needed to re-enable the bill validator) to get the clear chip at the same time.
Generally speaking a second chip costs you next to nothing and due to the low weight does not contribute to increased shipping.

I also remember speaking at length about the Motherboard CMOS to CactusJack one of our founding members and he indicated that the chip was NVRAM meaning it does not require a battery. Swapping this with a MPU board would preserve the DBV state, the credits etc. A lot of work for very little gain in my opinion.

[brichter]

I would imagine that the casinos are required to use a clear chip every time they change a game to prevent any chance of abnormal behavior...

[knagl]

No, nothing bad happens. Except it wastes time programming all the settings back after you fix the problem that the clear chip didn't and then want to use the machine again...

 

[poppo]

I also remember speaking at length about the Motherboard CMOS to CactusJack one of our founding members and he indicated that the chip was NVRAM meaning it does not require a battery. Swapping this with a MPU board would preserve the DBV state, the credits etc. A lot of work for very little gain in my opinion.

Yes, the eeprom does not require the battery backup and that was exactly why we had talked about swapping it with the MPU (to preserve all settings). As far as being a lot of work, that really depends. I already have a motherboard with the eeprom in a socket. And I have extra MPUs and eeproms. So it would just be a matter of popping the eeprom out and replacing it. no more time involved than having to use a SET chip to re-enable the BV if the game chip is changed. And no need to reset any other settings.  And while some may have the process for resetting all of the other setting memorized, it always gives me a fit if I have not done it in a while.  the S+ is not the most user friendly thing to set up.

Anyway, I will try something later and see what happens. 

[poppo]

Well, I took the easy route (lol). I pulled the motherboard out, desoldered the eeprom and stuck it in the motherboard that had a socket. I put the that motherboard back in, reconnected everything and crossed my fingers. It powered up fine with everything intact.   Some other day I will put in a new eeprom, and use a different MPU, get everything working and then pop in another new eeprom and see exactly what happens with just a eeprom change. If all it takes is a self test button press to make it right, then great. But in any case I still have gained the ability to easily replace the eeprom if I ever have to. And this motherboard is in better shape than the one that was in there before.

Socketed eeprom

[stayouttadabunker]

The nice thing is because there's only 8-pins - they're very
easy to pop in and out of the socket.
You don't need bent screwdrivers, pullers - just two fingers!  >>>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oXtryNY3WOk&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/oXtryNY3WOk&rel=0</a>

[poppo]

Yeah, it easy to pull it out, but a flashlight helps since it's way in the corner when it's actually in the machine.

Well, what I did was stuck a Double Diamond Deluxe chip set in the spare MPU and using a brand new eeprom, turned the machine on. I first got a 61. Ok, I  pressed self test for 2 seconds, got the ding and a 61_1. Great, I close the door, turn the reset and then get a 65_3.  So the procedure for a 65_3 is to use a SET chip or turn the reset key. The reset key cleared the 65_3 but gave me a 61 again and then the 61_1 and back to a 65_3. Argh! But after a few tries it finally cleared and the game was running.  I still have to enable the BV and a few other things with the SET and then will see what happens when I put another new eeprom in. I think it will do the same thing though, including needing to use the SET chip to turn the BV back on. I will try that stuff when I actually switch the theme.

When I was done, I put my original MPU and eeprom back in and of course it powered up as normal with everything intact.

[stayouttadabunker]

It would be neat if someone could make a small board
that could house several games on it including SET chip software.
Then it could run out the the outside of the MPU cage to a dipswitchable gizmo.
that would be a great little mod to play with.
Of course you'd still have to change out strips and glass.
I think that's why the Multi-game was then born...lol

We're playing with old stuff from the late 80's...these were
meant to be this way - difficult!  

[poppo]

It would be neat if someone could make a small board
that could house several games on it including SET chip software.
Then it could run out the the outside of the MPU cage to a dipswitchable gizmo.
that would be a great little mod to play with.
Of course you'd still have to change out strips and glass.
I think that's why the Multi-game was then born...lol

We're playing with old stuff from the late 80's...these were
meant to be this way - difficult! 

You mean something like this?  Just add an extension cable to put it on the other side of the MPU board if you want.
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=10134.0

[stayouttadabunker]

I totally forgot about that Poppo! 

[jay]

Well if we are going for the mod lets change the glass out for LCD screens. With the same change of the dipswitch we can change the glass theme.

You can even buy bendable LED panels now so you could also change out the reel strips with different images. Unfortuately the form factor is wrong for our needs. Then there is also the challenge of having LED screens "wired" to moving reels.

[stayouttadabunker]

Actually, that wouldn't be entirely impossible, Jay!
I repair Pelco security PTZ cameras and there are as many as 40 wires and
contacts running inside of the center of the camera hub.
They made these rotating connectors ( slip rings) original made for Canada's space program shuttle robotic "Arm".
A company down in Boca Raton fabricates these amazing connectors now.

Having them placed into the center of re-fabricated/ultra-modified reel baskets would be an
amazing feat with super-expensive flexible LCD strips! lol
It would be much more cost efficient to go with a plain LCD screen...
I love the idea personally, with animated symbols such as those on the Vision LCD screens.