Issues with IGT/Aristocrat 5 reel slot--tilting and odd payouts?

[EJS]

Hello.

This is obviously my first time posting, I have looked through these groups a little bit this evening and decided to post with some issues I have with my game. I just dug it out of storage a few days ago. For the most part it works. It takes in coin, will spin and do its thing and even cash out the coin. Every 15 spins or so it will tilt on me which may or may not be a malfunction which brings me to my first question...is there a physical plum bob tilt or mercury tilt or??...or is that just the machines way of telling the player that there was a fault? It will do this on a combination of both when there should have been a win and when there was a loss.

 The machine also has an odd way of giving out winnings. On the display it says that it will pay out 5 credits for any 3 in a row, it will sometimes not do that, or even one cherry in a line will not pay out. Sometimes it will. Also does * - - - - mean that the cherry needs to be on reel # one or can it be on any reel. In that example the * is the cherry and - is anything else. Right now the machine has me believing that it could go either way.

Tomorrow morning I plan on cleaning the heads on the IR beams and re pin the molex plug on the reel assembly that pulls out to see if that help, maybe some reflowing of solder connections that are easy to reach on there as well.  Is there anything else that I might want to look at? I have not pulled out the CPU stuff yet.

any help or any obvious things that I might have missed would be greatly appreciated, thanks, and sorry for the potential poor English. Do know if this helps but the 5 reels can be played up the 3 lines. Game was made in 82 I can look up the model number as well.

[jay]

English is Great....

TILT as it relates to a SLOT is a simple machine error. Usually related to the coin mech. It is not a physical TILT like that of a PinBall.

While I am not familar with your platform the odd pays that you speak of..... is sometimes related to your reel strips not being on correctly.
This could mean that one or more are not on the reel correcty. Each reel strip has a notch that you use to line them up.
It could also mean that they are in the wrong order.  On IGT S+ machines each strip has a number on it, which dictates reel order.

IT is also possible that the game chips don't match the reel strips or the glass.

IF you could post the theme of the machine and any other information you have such as the game/reel chips and reel strip numbers it should help people decipher the problems you are having.

[EJS]

Hello.

Thanks for the reply.

Well as of a moment ago the thing has been tilting with some results that look like wins and some that dont. Then it tilted again, locked up and started beeping at me with all 3 topper lights flashing. It sounds and looks like there is an issue going on. My first thought is poor sockets on the boards and I'm going to crack that open in the next hour or so. I have read in other threads that these things use the 5101's and 6821's??? I have plenty of both I might consider swapping out too, dont know if thats necc. at this point, I will look for the easy stuff first.

I have posted the payout chart and took pics of some of the abnormal higher or lower payouts here:

http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/album797

Your decal theory sounds good, although I didnt see any decal notches. It does look like there is an overlay on some of the reels; is there an easy way to find numbers or anything of that sort to tell if something is wrong or not. Again, I appreciate your reply and I'm sure I will be able to get this thing going its just a matter of time.

Also, the tilting is happening after all the reels have stopped....then the tilt lightes up, putting another coin in or selecting lines from my credit will make it go away. It also tilts on power up. I'm also going to clean/adjust the coin mech and look at the entry path.

I will look for #'s on reel strips and anything on CPU later tonight and post them.

[EJS]

Well I think its time for an update as I have spent a majority of the time between these two post either working or playing this thing.

A note: the main plasic reels are 344-14 and the stopping spoke thingy was 308-35 I dont know if those numbers mean anything. There were no numbers on the decals but the first reel had 2 decals that were laid over the top of the large one, they consisted of two oranges spaced about 5 or 6 fruits apart. I dont know if this was part of a PROM update or not. The second reel had a cherry decal overlaying the original. All the others were smooth. i didnt dare pry them up to see what was under them, could have been patch work from burns or gouges.

After my previous post I went down to power it up and it lit up with a 3 topper lamps, tilt, and a very loud and annoying sound. Unplugging the speaker molex plug solved one of those issues heh heh.

Anyway, getting fed up with everything I decided to pull out the hopper try and tear into the MPU box. Thankfully the original batteries had been removed, I expected the worst. I pulled the two board out of the interconnect board and reseated all the IC's and the ribbon cable. Also, the 5 volts on the cpu was 4.8-, seems a little low to me but I didnt want to bother splicing in a switching power supply. i blew some compressed air into the slots that the two boards go into and sanded the edge connectors of said boards. Put them back together and blew some more air on those computer like connectors and threw it back together.

Game now powers up into tilt but after that first spin I could not get the thing to tilt, and it paid out when it should and it didnt when it shouldnt have. I had to quit playing because my arm was getting sore. Not a single tilt not a flawed spin result. Let's see how that holds up when the family comes over tomorrow to play it. I know working on this old technology is getting close to beating a dead horse. I've been repairing pinball machines since I was 10 years old ( I'm 20 now) and things seem to fail in waves over the country due to age.

So....here the thing sits in a working state until something else comes along. That might be tomorrow, it might be next week, it might be next year, it might not ever be but at least I will be able to sleep at night.

I looked at a sticker that listed the value of the 3 PROMS and at the bottom the percentage was 90%...I'm guessing thats what the game gives out? I say that based on the way I have been playing this evening. My final question for tonight is: is there the opportunity to get software that has a different level of payout %age and are they out there readily avail. Thanks for reading....and as you can probably tell I have experience that amounts to less than 2 days when it comes to working on slot specific stuff. I hope to pick up more junk machines to work on in the future.

[EJS]

Sure enough, more issues. reel carriage seemed to have a poor connection. A removal and a good shove solved it. This may have been causing tilt issues all along??? Any suggested way to re-enforce this connection? Sanding connections have already been done...trying to think what else, or am I going over kill. Thanks for reading my journey!

[Op-Bell]

I have one of those. If you're getting odd payouts it means the machine is misreading the reel optics and thinks the reels are in a different position from what they are. The loose connector will do that. The tilting is because the game constantly checks the reels while they're spinning and tilts if they stop or come up with an invalid position. The game doesn't do the reel check when you play it with the door open. Also with the door open, one position of the test switch displays the reel position numbers, 1-22, and I think also the symbol it's supposed to show. I have a manual somewhere but can't lay my hands on it tonight, it may be at work.

I disassembled the software and know how to change the percentages. If you have a spare 2716 and an EPROM programmer I can tell you how to do it yourself. Tell me the numbers on the EPROMs and if possible, read #3 (furthest right next to the empty socket) and send me the dump by email. That EPROM has the reel strips and payouts in it.

[EJS]

Yes that makes sense. When I pull the reel assembly out and give it a shove back in there it will solve the problem for a while. I have already gone through and cleaned the optical eyes on both sides. I'm still keeping an eye out for a manual as well. I will probably clean the main connector for the assembly in the next week or so.

I do not have an EPROM reader/programmer. I can get the numbers off of the EPROM's which are the same numbers on the decal inside of the machine I take it?

[Op-Bell]

I can get the numbers off of the EPROM's which are the same numbers on the decal inside of the machine I take it?

The numbers on the sticky labels on the actual EPROMs.

[EJS]

I'd like to add another update and see if I can fish for a few more ideas.

The slot has fallen into a predictable patter. I can play about 100 times or so and then it will start to pay out oddly again and will also tilt when there are cherries in the window in a certain position. It does not seem to be random. This is after I have lightly sanded the large reel connector in the back both male/female. ALSO, when I pull it out and reseat the problem will be fixed for another 100 plays. Does anyone have any other ideas? I did reflow solder connections on the main board that holds all those mini opto sensors and I am starting to take apart the individual opto boards and going to reflow solder connections on those. The reels themselves and the holes are clean.

Op-Bell, I will be in touch with those prom numbers. I would also be interested in those numbers in the diagnostics for the first reel if you were able to find the manual that would be great.

thanks

--Eric

[EJS]

Here is the deal.

I was able to start predicting the tilt based on cherries showing up on reel one. I opened the thing up and I manually spun the reel and the diagnostic meter started to fail at changing numbers. So I switched the first and last optical PCB and started to write down the number displayed on the meter after the spin for reel number 5. Shouldnt these numbers go in order? I played the game over and over to make sure that these numbers are consistent and the machine tilts in two different locations. I actually took the opto pcb apart and reflowed all the solder connections and still no good.

I think I might need a different opto board does anyone have one that they could sell to me? Anyone do repairs?

thanks!

--Eric

[Op-Bell]

They should go in order, yes. It looks like the 2nd opto bit is stuck low -
4,5,4,5,8,9,8,9

binary 00100 00101 00100 00101 01000 01001 01000 01001
Underlined bits should be 1

I believe this sensor is the outermost one in the row of 4. The one off on its own is bit 0.

A permanent 0 indicates the phototransistor is permanently seeing a hole. Clearly this isnt the case, so you may have a short on the phototransistor, possibly a solder bridge, or the CMOS chip may be bad. Since it comes and goes, I think it's the chip. The chip is easy to get and change. Cut all its legs off close to the chip and unsolder them from the board one by one. Alternatively, move the bad sensor board to the end where only the emitters are used.

[EJS]

Here are some results with moving the PCB's around. I think the issue is getting worse.

With results from moving the boards around ( see below the *'s for details) I dont think moving the boards around is the solution am I wrong? The result of the moving around of bards has resulted in the reel 5 issue being fixed at that reel, but it moved to reel4 and I cant switch boards out to resolve that.....I am also not able to put service credits on machine with door open...not worried about that but might be related. I'm also able to predict tilting on reel 4 just like reel 5...also similar issue.

Your thinking the CMOS is bad? Would you be able to point me in the right direction for a new one.


thanks for reading!

--Eric

Boring yet important details below

************************************
this morning the opto boards were in their original position and I when the tilting started to act up  I switched the opto boards on each end of the reels. After this I started to discovered the pattern of numbers on reel number 5. As of a few seconds ago I switched the boards back to their original state. I am now going to check reel numbers on 1 and 5. Previously reel 1 was ok ( when boards not in original position).

okay, with optos in original postion reel 5 is still symptomatic as seen in my post with pictures and reel 1 is ok.

Now switching out opto board between reels 4 and 5 with the last opto board ( to the right of reel 5)...(I also marked each opto board with their original location)..... and the results....

well, first it powered up dead and took about 25 seconds for everything to boot up which is new, probably not related ( ? ) but worth mentioning. But now reel 4 has symptoms of what reel 5 had but reel 5 is ok. Also, the machine will not accept service credits when door is open and will not credit a coin when door is closed....when I go to open the door the machine gives credit to the machine and I am able to spin reels, machine seems to be delayed in every command and seems very screwed up. Now going to take the opto board that is between reels 4 and 5 and move it all the way to the beginning which is before reel 1. Results....

same boot up issue as seen above. but now it is accepting coins and playing fine, yes still tilting but did fail to pay out for 3 items located on reels 2, 3, and 4. Lets check reel positions... ok, reel 4 is spitting out bad numbers, all other ok. Now moving opto board between reel 3 and 4 to the end aka to the right of reel 5. The results.....


instant boot up, I like that......Lets play a few games....okay, after 5 or 6 plays I am awarded 7 coins when 2 should have been awarded and it no longer accpets coins because (?) the jackpot lamp on the topper is lit up. checking reels now....reel 4 still bad and booting up again with reels in the same position I'm finding that its taking even longer to boot up....lets play a few more games and see what happens ( reel 4 still the issue)....

[Op-Bell]

You have six boards, all alike. At one end the emitters face the reels and the sensors are not used, at the other end the sensors face them and the emitters are not used. I still can't find my manual so I don't know which is which, but on the back PCB, five of the boards have a select track running to pin 1 of each connector, and one of the end boards does not. That's the emitter-only end. Counting from that end, count down the boards until you pass the reel that's reading wrong. That PCB is the bad one. Swap it with the PCB at the emitter-only end.

[EJS]

Hi there, thanks for the quick reply. Yes I spotted the one with an isolated pin 1, its the first one, left of reel 1. At this point I just reinstalled the boards in any old way which makes reel 1 and reel 3 give out bad numbers. With my previous post, moving the PCB's around didnt seem to move the problem much so its very difficult to pinpoint which board, if only one, is bad. Its starting to look like multiples are wrong. Even if I get it figured out I still have to figure out if its the transmitter or receiver. I will continue to swap boards around....

did some more swapping around. I dont think there is anyway to move one board to either end with a solution.

okay, I did some more switching around and I am convinced that I found a bad one as I was able to put it between 2 reels that made both of them act up.

[Op-Bell]

The chip on the board is a 4000 series CMOS hex inverter with output enable, I forget the number, 45-something. See schematic below. Assuming everything is working, the output will be low when the collector of the phototransistor is high. That happens when it has no light falling on it. So it may be that a diode is out on the adjacent board. Unfortunately you can't see infra-red, but your digital camera can. If you apply power to each board (5V to the pin that gets all the 150 ohm resistors - brown-green-brown) (0V to the pin that gets the other end of all the light emitting diodes) (a 9V battery will do here, it's hard to break LEDs and the CMOS can stand 15V) and look at the diodes on the viewfinder of a digital camera, the lit diodes will show up white. Also, do clean them! They can collect an awful lot of dirt and tobacco film, and fluff in the plastic housings. Take the plastic off and clean both diodes and emitters with some alcohol until they're shiny. If the diodes are ok and cleaning doesn't help, look forward to replacing the CMOS chip.

[EJS]

hello.

I put the 12V battery on the two correct pins on the back pcb board to lite up all the opto boards and none of the LED's lit up through camera, checked my wiring 3 times and verified battery voltage. Maybe I'm missed something.

On a better note I was able to verify a potential bad opto board on both sides by verification of sandwiching it between 2 known good boards. I'm starting a process of marking sides of boards that are testing good with the machine, rather than trying to find one or two bad apples and forgetting whats where and when.

I cleaned the lenses on all sides some time ago.

dont know how I can thank you for all your help so far, getting closer. I really doubt its that main connector in the back anymore now that I know how to look at the reels in test.

--Eric

[Op-Bell]

Maybe your camera has an IR filter on it. Most cameras will show an IR LED as white. Get your meter out and measure the voltage between the two ends of each 150 ohm resistor. A bad (open circuit) LED will read no voltage, a good one will read about 2V less than the power supply voltage.

Next thing then is to check your phototransistors. Power up two boards and set the LEDs of one against the phototransistors of the other. Then measure the voltage on the following pins of the CMOS chip - 1, 3, 10, 13, 15. Looking at the chip with the end notch on the left, pin 1 is lower left, pin 8 is lower right, pin 9 is upper right, pin 16 is upper left, in a circular fashion. All of those pins should read less than 2 volts with the phototransistors lit up. You can also measure the transistor end of the 47k resistors (yellow-purple-orange). The chip outputs (2, 5, 9, 11, 13) will be turned off, high impedance, at this time and can't be measured.

If you now connect pin 1 of the chip (or pin 1 of the connector, same thing) to 0V to enable the chip outputs, they should go high - pins 2, 5, 9, 11,13. Take away the LED board or cover the phototransistors with a piece of card and the outputs should go low. Any pin that doesn't go high when its input is low and low when its input is high means the chip is bad and needs to be replaced.

[Op-Bell]

Oh by the way, I have spare LEDs, phototransistors and chips when you find out what you need.

[EJS]

Okay, Going to put these tests towards a suspecting bad board.

Powering up with all PCB boards installed and the board to be tested will be between reels 2 and 3 (reels are uninstalled at the moment).

I dont know if this explains anything but with the reels removed shouldnt all the reels have the same position? I'm getting..

131--likes to bounce around between 129,130 131 depend if I handle the board/bracket
229
331
431
528 (goes to 529 if I disturb it for a bit)...I might need to reflow connection. ( do you have new female plugs? I have similar ones in pinballs this old and are prone to oxidize and weaken).....as with reel 1 I made sure I didnt disrupt any optical beams.

(I reflowed all male pins awhile ago on the big pcb.)

Measuring ends of resistors on board mentioned.
one by itself measures 3.8 volts, in the group of 5...2 measure 0 and the other 3 measure 4.6

so from your information the resistors that measure 0 across them need their associated LED replaced?

now on to the photos/Chip

okay, in the state that it is in, pin readouts in voltage.....
1)4.8
2)0.1
3)0.52
5)4.8
9)4.8
10) 0.17
11)4.8
13)0.22
15)0.72


I shorted pin one to ground and that causes reel 2 to go from 229 to 231...however....there is no continuity between pin one on the chip to any plug pins....pin 9 on the chip goes directly to either pin one or last pin on connector. So am I needing pin one on chip or pin 1 on connector? I will hold off on that test for now.

If I did anything incorrectly let me know. But it sounds like I need a few LED's and maybe a new chip. It sounds like some of this info might tell of the status on the boards next door as well. I will have to get that intermittent issue with the other boards checked out as well. Could be a flaky led or (not as likely...) a photo trans. For redundancy would it be worthwhile to replace all chips and LED's? Time and board repair and not an issue on my end. If some components are starting to go south other might too? I keep telling myself that this stuff is almost 26 years old.

--Eric

Maybe your camera has an IR filter on it. Most cameras will show an IR LED as white. Get your meter out and measure the voltage between the two ends of each 150 ohm resistor. A bad (open circuit) LED will read no voltage, a good one will read about 2V less than the power supply voltage.

Next thing then is to check your phototransistors. Power up two boards and set the LEDs of one against the phototransistors of the other. Then measure the voltage on the following pins of the CMOS chip - 1, 3, 10, 13, 15. Looking at the chip with the end notch on the left, pin 1 is lower left, pin 8 is lower right, pin 9 is upper right, pin 16 is upper left, in a circular fashion. All of those pins should read less than 2 volts with the phototransistors lit up. You can also measure the transistor end of the 47k resistors (yellow-purple-orange). The chip outputs (2, 5, 9, 11, 13) will be turned off, high impedance, at this time and can't be measured.

If you now connect pin 1 of the chip (or pin 1 of the connector, same thing) to 0V to enable the chip outputs, they should go high - pins 2, 5, 9, 11,13. Take away the LED board or cover the phototransistors with a piece of card and the outputs should go low. Any pin that doesn't go high when its input is low and low when its input is high means the chip is bad and needs to be replaced.

[Op-Bell]

Pin 1 .. I may have numbered the pins backwards on my sketch. By pin 1 I mean the pin that gets its own separate track, whichever end that is. But we have enough now to diagnose it.

To make sense of the numbers you have to express them in binary. The first number is the reel number, so we have:

reel               sensor
                  5 4 3 2 1
1     31        1 1 1 1 1
2     29        1 1 1 0 1
3     31        1 1 1 1 1
4     31        1 1 1 1 1
5     28        1 1 1 0 0

The sensor pattern is like this:

        5
        4
        3
  1    2

A '0' means the sensor is not seeing light. So for the '0's, either the LED is dead, or the phototransistor is dead. From your resistor readings, if the LED is good it draws current that produced a voltage across the resistor, so if you measure no voltage, that diode needs to be replaced. You should be able to tie up the 0V readings with the 0 bits in the table above.

[EJS]

so based on that number matrix, I need to replace the 0's. But like you said, the LED might fix the issue, or it might not be "getting any" from the photo trans. Sounds like if its showing up dead in binary/payout LCD but working in a voltage test then it would be the photo trans.

You said in another post that you have these on hand? Please send me a message so we can set something up or I will send you an e mail tomorrow afternoon.

as always ...  thanks 

--Eric

[EJS]

Ok. I've got reels 1,2,3,4 showing 31 so they are ok. But no matter which board I switch out with new optos or old optos I cannot shake it off of 29. I have the issue isolated to the board and the associated LED has been replaced. Need a new PIA?