Bally 1112 - reel strips installed incorrectly?

[Chedderboy]

I have a Bally $1 slot machine that has been sitting for a long time.  The last owner had it for 15 years and his son ended up selling it to me (custom dust cover included!).  The problem is that the machine doesn't pay correctly - at all.  It appears to have new reel strips, but I'm wondering if the tins were installed in the wrong postiions?  I tried to line up the deepest cuts on the reels in the back and it paid off like a jackpot - but the 7's were not even close.  

Any ideas or should I just start saving to have it shopped out?  Machine is immaculate (glass/crome/everyting).  Is it possible the reel tins were installed 1/4 or more out of position? 

How does one align the reel strips?  Deepest groove to the 7s in back?

[Neonkiss]

Yes, Deepest grove is usually 7's or jackpot.
The reel strips sometimes slide on the tin reels. They had center-punch crimps to prevent them from sliding around when the reels stop abruptly.
If the reel strips were replaced with new one (sometime back) they may be loose. try sliding them to see if they move around the reels. if not,
Line up the deepest grove and see if the seven is out by a 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of the way. The tin reels fit on the shaft 4 way. They are not keyed to fit in one direction only.

[Chedderboy]

Thanks for the help.  The reel strips are on tight and I'm wondering if they are just incorrect?  When the machine does pay, it seems the hopper motor is laboring (at at times can't make the hopper spin to kick coins), which may be failing?   This machine is so pristine that I'll probably just take it down to LA Slots to get shopped out.  I was hoping to get it going myself, but it's probably out of league...

[toyotaoutlaw]

im having that same problem with mine in a way. still trying to figure it out. did you end up getting it fixed and if so what was it if you dont mind me asking

[Chedderboy]

I ended up taking the machine to LA Slots and had them work on it.  Their slot tech had to put the reel strips back on , as they were installed incorrectly as I had suspected.  The machine had just sat for a long time and needed to be lubed and adjusted.  It works perfect now and was well worth the three hours of labor @ $65/hr. 

[Karliesdad88]

im having the same issue. some of the symbols do not line up correctly. I am going to try and fix it myself

[zinda]

I'm in the process of doing all that and more, what i have figured out was to 1st make sure the reels and wiper boards are all in the correct place 1-2-3-4 in my case. Then set the slot to the deepest setting on all reels then find the corresponding symbol for that deepest slot in my case it was 7's. Now I had it a little bit easier to check the reels proper mounting on each hub or where they bolt on since I have 8balls that are not on the 4th reel, so I knew that my #4 reel was in the correct position but not mounted to the hub correctly. I had to unscrew the 4 screws that hold the reels in place then turn the reels to 7's to match up with the deepest slot. Temporarily remounted them all with 2 screws in each and turned them to the next groove to make sure that they were all lining up with the symbols. If not you will have to remove the tape and move them to the proper reels that will line up correctly. Of course mark everything or take pictures before you start and you can also use them to figure out where they might be best tried out 1st. With only 3 reels it shouldn't be that hard to figure out, first try rotating them on the hub and if that's not working out for 2 of them then you know that they most likely will have to have the tape swapped over and realigned starting with the deepest slot. If it's not lining up now what do you have to loose? It may take a little bit of time but it's far from impossible to figure out once you study it for a while, never jump into anything without examining it for some time, also take pictures of how it is before starting then after again to compare what went wrong or what was a partial fix or even better how you solved it.

I'm now currently trying to rewire the pins on the reel wiper boards to get the proper pay outs since mine has no usable prints schematics from what I've found out so far. this is where it gets a little bit more complex, Mine was rewired incorrectly and modified to pay wrong, I believe who ever did t was not thinking properly when they started and did not document the proper locations in case of a failed attempt. Mme has wires soldered on pins that are out of the reach of the wipers and has always hot connections on every pull it will pay out from the Blue Orange wire, (now disconnected from the pay out board).

So, if all you have to do is figure out your reels and tape, Ii would consider yourself a lucky man with a 2 or 3 hour job at hand (at most), If you see signs of wires moved on your wiper reel boards you will be in the same boat as me but I'm sure that you will not be dealing with the same monster I have, your info will be readily available to you.

Anyone reading this who has any information on the Liberty Bell Special 1967 4 reel single Quarter Bally slot Mine is marked Hyatt at Lake Tahoe on the glass, Fruit reels with a 7777 super jack pot please let me know anything will help, pictures of the pins would be the best or any type of wire to pin number cataloging to get me pointed in the right direction, even just 1st reel pins would make a huge difference in how I get started.

[rdaniel]

Just a comment that the deepest setting (slot) is not always a 7. My 742A had a deeper slot for the bar. I did the same thing thinking the deepest slot was a the seven. I found out that it did not pay correctly. Fortunately I had marked the bar setting on the reel disk, moved the settings to the marks and all worked well.

[OldReno]

Most generally I have noticed that the deepest cuts seem to be the highest pays.  Likewise, cherry cuts seem to be the shallowest pays.
First, push each of your wiper assemblies all the way back.  They should line up with the last set of buttons.  If they do not, then they may be out of adjustment.
After that, then with a sharpie mark on the boards where each of the symbols index at.  You should find that oranges always index on a certain cut, and etc. etc.  If they do not, then perhaps your reel was installed incorrectly on the disc, and that is something you can fix.
If the symbols match the cuts all the way around the reels, then it's probably good to go.
You can do it all on paper to check and verify.

[zinda]

That is exactly how I did mine after I figured out 1 of my reels was mounted was mounted 1/2 turn off. Then I started to tackle the modified wiring that has been done to the pins. I've been trying to get some pictures of which wires are connected to the pins on the boards so I can compare what I have to what a stock 4 reel single coin should be.

I've been doing it just by common sense, I have fixed a constant pay every pull problem and resolved incorrect payouts except for some of the wires have been removed to stop large payouts and need to figure out which wires should be shared on the 8 Ball pins it has the only $50 payout and there are no wires on the payout board connected to the 200 coin payout. also missing the 18 coin payout wire, I think it routes from a switch contact some where on the lower assembly but every solder joint has been reheated on the entire payout mech assembly so I cannot see any possible old connection as I was able to on most other wires that were loose or missing.

Any help at all would be most appreciated so I don't have to run more wires if they are not necessary.

I would buy a service manual if there was a guarantee that my model is covered in it, at least with a schematic of the pins to pay outs. But since I have a Liberty Bell Special, it has a completely different way of paying out than the 3 reel machines. Plus no multipliers. I cannot get a response back from any sellers on the content actually having this information or not. Since that s the only use I have for the manual it really would not be worth buying just to find out it isn't shown, at the tune of $30-$50 a book I can't take that chance. I only paid $170 for the machine to spend $50 on a book for a simple 1 page pin layout is way too much. Especially when I'm only a few wires away from completion.

If I cannot find any help I'm just going to add my own wring to it, there's plenty of open pins and extras on the beau plugs so it won't be a big deal to do it separately.

[OldReno]

Common sense trumps most anything else.
Be aware that your wipers MAY be separated.  If you look at the back of them, you may find that someone has cut out a chunk of the copper.  This is to allow for separate circuits.  e.g, you want to keep the 50 V pay circuits separated from the 6V bell circuits.
So look at your wipers, and don't let that throw you.
Rewiring a reel board isn't that difficult, but it can be very time consuming.  It is best always to try to avoid having to rewire, and look for some other solution first if possible.
More pics........?

[zinda]

What I've done so far is take an example of a 3 reel board and copied one extra reel to the diagram that plots a basic payout wire signal. I have erased all the wires and used a drawing program to replot the flow of the signals onto my 4 reel diagram. But I forgot to check to see how my wipers are divided as the contacts make connections before I started. So my drawing may be incorrect as far as exactly which pins will control each contact but the idea of how to make the signals work may right. It's kind of hard to follow since it's my rough draft and I feel asleep while doing it but while I had it in my head I gave it a go. I started to transfer what I had onto the pins in a clearer version and do it as a reel by reel colorized per assigned pin. Using red dots for cherry Orange for oranges, etc..
  Then I drew lines in for connected wires and placed dots that were the color of the wires that came from pins that I will need to run a jumper wire that makes contact on another field on the wiper plates separate areas. Then I showed payouts as a small green dot in each pin that connects to the payout boards and put a number over those dots showing the number of coins. My biggest challenge is the 3rd reel, since they all have a payout i'm going to have deal with several rows of contact plates on each row of the wiper. The first 2 are simple, using only 2 separate wiper areas to make the flow work. Once I realized that I may have the areas labeled incorrectly I stopped to see If there may be an answer here before I went out to see where the wiper blades were divided.

[OldReno]

It really does not matter how your wipers are divided, just be aware that they MAY be.
You can always solder a jumper to connect the wipers back to original, but be sure to separate the 6V from the 50V....

[zinda]

This is what I'm using to try and figure out the way to flow a signal path for each pay out. The problem I'm having is how toi isolate each separate pay off amount per reel. The only way I can do it is if I am using a signal from the next reel to energize the one before it. Say there's 1 cherry on reel 1 then the other 3 reels are Oranges, this means that the cherry circuit will only be able to energize the 2 coin payout,But in order for that to happen the 2 coin payout wires need to know that the signal has only gone that far and not onto the next payout or it would end up having 2 payouts hot. They way I have it now is the signal comes from the #2 reel landing on anything but the cherries and sends a signal back to the 1st reels board on a separate switching area for the cherries. but if the 2nd reel lands cherries that signal is cut and the 3rd reel will send a signal back to the 2nd reel again on a separate switching set. But once  get to reel 3 where everything has a payout there tends to be way to many possible combinations of wires that need to be connected to keep each payout and each hot line separate since all but the 8 balls will be paying out on the 4th reel. Here's the flow example I've made to work with and I have a few very messy versions I'm working on. I haven't adjusted the wiper divisions on the 2nd picture but they are shown corrected on the large flow picture. they should be 3 in the upper set 2 in the middle and 4 on the lowest set of wiper fingers.

[zinda]

that was actually the wrong image I meant to post this one,I have so many variations that i have been saving.

[zinda]

here's 1 I started but stopped till i find out more.

[mark the spark]

may I ask will the machine just pay from the left or will it be left to right right to left

[OldReno]

We need to know exactly what your payout structure is, left to right, right to left, and what each and every pay pays out.  A pic of the payout card or payglass would be good.  Does machine pay for Or, Or, Bar?  
This is probably going to be a lot more complicated than you had imagined....
I'm guessing 3 oranges pays 10, but 4 oranges pays 20.  4 bells probably pays 20 also, yes?
That requires a bars match relay, and I presume there is one perhaps mounted near or on your 4th reel...?
The machine did not work at all originally as far as payouts???
Is it a standard set of reel strips, or does it look modified?

And also, is this a single line machine, or 3 line?

[zinda]

Here's the payout in the picture.
What I've done is basically went through the machine and fixed numerous bad connections broken wires disconnected wires, cleaned off the white oxidation on the beau plug pins and sockets, readjusted every switch to get the contacts to open and close in sync. Then I was able to accept a coin for play, adjusted the pawl switch to get the arm to unlock then I could actually play it!    Once I played it I was getting a payout every pull, 5 coins or so, I disconnected that payout wire and then I started to look to see how things were supposed to be wired up since I had done everything by using common sense and a few hours of looking at how it worked and took a pile of pictures to make sure when I started to rearrange any wires I would have some reference as to how they were originally. I then noticed that the payouts were off and looked at the reels positions and the wipers positions to see if the reels were mounted on the hubs correctly, I also noticed that the reel contact boards were really poorly soldered and looked more closely at them to find that there was some very obvious changes made to the payouts, Jumper wires that went in circles and very poor solder joints. Wires not fully making connections etc.. I then removed most of the wires that were not making any sense as to why they were there.
   When I tried the payouts I was still off and looked into the reels being on the correct shaft mounting places reel 1 on the reel 1 position. etc.. I have no 8 ball on the 4th reel so I could start there.   It was correct in position but it was not lining up with the wiper pins. So I figured out were it needed to be and removed the 4 small bolts and rotated it 90 degrees until the 7 was in the deepest slot. Did the same for the rest and found them to be ok. The rel tape is only slightly off from the center line so I left it alone. I also rebalanced the reels right away while I was there. They were all heavy on one side and filed off a burr that was nicking the arm that stops the reels.
  Now it has stopped paying out every spin and I've connected every wire Available back to the hopper payout but I'm short 2 wires the 18 payout for the 3 bells and the 200 payout and I think the 100 is wrong.
It will now payout on certain amounts correctly (I've been writing them down as I check it). But has some irregularities in the 14 and the 20 payouts. Also will not pay out on any large pots but will spit out way too many on what should be much smaller payouts like 20 will payout the entire hopper (I only have 40 quarters in it and even if I catch them and put them back in I think it times out before it stops as it should).
 I'll count like 55 before it shuts off, but I have some time while it is being refilled so I can't be certain exactly what it's paying yet. I'm going to get more quarters in just a few minutes to complete my tests.
 I have some payouts that are ok on some symbols but wrong on others that should be the same like the 20 does not pay correctly on anything but does pay 20 on wrong combinations, as long as there is a cherry in the 1st reel ad then the 2nd may have Orange and the 3 & 4 will have cherries. But not 4 cherries that will only pay 10. I have a log of the symbols showing in each reel for each payout also including the symbol above and below each one on the line  so I have 3 symbols for each reel when it pays to see whats closest to the pay line when it happens. I think its all in the wires and has nothing to do with the reel tape, they all match up with the slot depth on each reel, I checked every one.

So that's where I'm at right now, at this point I definitely need some type of reference to get me started. I've seen all the free information available and nothing pertains exactly to my model. I realize the concept is the same but mine is very different in how the payouts are structured. Actually should be much simpler than any multiplier or extra line payouts, that's why I started to figure it out for myself. I just got started without looking to see were my wipers have divisions, now I have that recorded as well. I tried to contact the previous owner but he's not selling anything right now and I don't think he'll be checking his messages till he does. I have his phone number but I hate to bother him for this info knowing that he probably has no answers, more than likely this is why he sold it, he has a couple more maybe 4 or 5 sitting in his garage when I picked up this one, they looked to be all in 1 piece but I have no idea what he does with them other than sell them. I saw no signs of any being repaired there. Just stored. Here's another picture of the wiring job.

[mark the spark]

had a look im sure this machine only pays from the left the jackpot was attendant paid so that leaves you with 9 payouts
2,5,10,14,18 and 20 and then on the large payouts 100 200 and 600 you can look at your payout card on the hopper to see what matches
the 8 ball is not present on the last reel is correct
start from there most of the pinouts to the hopper are normally standard across the models start with the 2 pay first

[zinda]

I'm thinking that the 18 payout comes out of the beau plug on the bottom and either goes to a switch or a solenoid lead then over to the payout board, because I don't have that wire available to me at the pay out board, It would have been in the wire loom if it was coming directly from the same place as the others. Since it's not in that loom with almost every other payout wire I tend to think it's one of those few that run a single short cut path directly to the payout boards connection running underneath the board.
  I started to check which wires are making contact on the next boards wires to see where the signal is stopping or getting off track. That coupled with the information I have written down on what is paying out compared to what should be paying out. Of course I went through each posted pay out to see what happened and also the random strange payouts I got while I pulled the handle. So far I have recorded these
1-cherry=2 coins
2 cherries=5 coins
3 cherries=2  coins
2 cherries + 1 orange + 1 cherry=20 coins
4 cherries=5 coins
3 CHERRIES + Orange=20 coins
3 cherries + plum=5 coins
3 Cherries + Bell= 5 Coins
3 Cherries + Bar=5 Coins
3  Cherries + 7=5 coins
3 oranges=10 coins
4 oranges=10 coins
3 plums=14 coins
4 plums= 14 coins
3 bells=41 OR SO COINS
4 bells=52 COINS
3 8-Bals= no pay
3 bars=no pay
4 bars= no pay
3 7's =no pay
4 7's = no pay
then i have a list of combinations that will pay out various amounts but they are virtually unrelated to each other.

I'll just use C for Cherry, O for Orange, P for Plum, B for Bells, 8 for 8 Ball, Bar for Bar, 7 for 7
this side will show the combination and over here I'll show the payout with a number
   combo                   Payout
P C O BAR   =   2
C O O C      =   2
C C 7 C      =    2
8 C O BAR  =   2 BUT (8C8O, 8COO, 8CCO, 87OC ALL NO PAY)

B C O O  =  10
BAR C O C  =  2
C C 8 O   =  20
C B C O  =  20
O C O O  = 10
C C B O  =  20
B C O B  =  2
C B 8 O  =  20
C P O O  =  20
C C P O  = 20

It looks like the pattern shows a problem with the 3rd and 4th reels orange wires if you notice that all of these unusual pay outs involve the oranges in some fashion. The next is the Bell on reel 1 and reel 4. and the least problematic are the 8 Balls on reel 1 and 3, the bar on reel 1 may just have a jumper going over too far on the Bar.

[zinda]

I examined the pins a little bit closer today and moved a few wires that were not letting the signal flow through to the next board and It seems to be the step in the right direction to getting the 4th board to have a payout of the correct amount on the lower fruits but still missing something to energize the payouts. I've started to document the wires on those pictures I posted with the reel pin positions in colored dots per single reels. This way I can put them into my computer and do an overlay with them and have more overlays of the wipers blades with divisions in the proper places and can use the paint program to show witch pins are allowing the signal through to the next layers. If I use a layer that shows similar colored areas as a multiplier of the colors and the non matching will be blocked by the wiper blades not letting them pass through to the next layer. It should work pretty good if I can manipulate the wiper contacts over each layer to show which are picked up and which are not. Then view each layer as I peal them away to see the pins that are no letting the flow to the next reel. I may have to adjust the incoming wires dot colors to represent which symbol they are actually starting from as they transfer to the next boards pins. That will not be a big deal. The problem is searching in between the boards with a shop light and a magnifying glass while trying to remember witch colored wire it was and which color it is supposed to be and to find the pin it is going to now. Just too many wire colors and board changes to be able to keep it all straight in my head. The diagrams of the reel reader pins will be of the greatest help in this case. I'm going to remove the boards again and start recording the data in a few minutes. I should have them completed by this morning.

[mark the spark]

a simple tip I picked up from here to check payouts was to clip down on the 50v on the reel mech beau plug and using a continuity tester u should be able to pick up the payout pins and thus continuity across the reel cards these are normally wired right to left if you had say 4 plums you should be able to clip to the 50v and pick up the payout pin on the reel mech thus proving continuity you could then move the plum off the 4th reel and pick up the payout pin for 3 plums by the same method (im sure this is right but stand to be corrected)
looking at what payouts you have, I would be inclined to start with the hopper make sure its correctly set up see why you 100 pays and above aren`t working trace the wiring backwards to the reel mech and perhaps post some photos of your hopper

looking at the cherry payouts its not seeing the cherry on the 3 and 4 reel has someone mixed up the oranges and cherrys on the 3 and 4 reels being as 3 cherrys and an orange pays 20 just a thought

[zinda]

Thanks for the advise, what i've been doing is merely making sure that each wire has another wire that will make the signal route from 4th reel to 1st reel. Regardless if the pin association is correct or not. Then I can figure out where the flow is disrupted and I will then know where to get started on where to go from there. Once I get the cherries figured out the rest should be super easy. I was wondering if the payouts have any resistors in line from the boards to the payout board? This would make figuring out the payouts much easier than having the reels before each payout controlling the payouts for each wire. What I'm saying is there a resistor that would be on the 2 coin payout that would cause the hot lead to not travel to the 2 coin payout if the next reel was a cherry also? The 3rd & 4th reel would not have resistor but the  2nd reel pay out wire would have a bit lower resistance (47 ohm) than the 1st reel (maybe a 67 ohm). This would keep the signal from energizing the 1st and 2nd reels pay outs at the same time by only having 1 single line of switches used for each payout circuit. Or would this hinder the payout actuator or the hopper assembly from working properly? Because no matter how I configure my wire diagrams I always will run into the signals being shared by 2 separate payouts on every symbol but the 8 balls. For instance if I have 3 plums which pay 14 then that will be energized but then the 4th reel stops at plums now the 20 is also energized if there is only 1 line of path for that signal. there has to be a cut if the 4th reel lands on the plums or there needs to be a resistor to divert the signals from flowing to the 14 coin and the 20 at the same time. The same holds true all throughout the cherry signals flow. I've tried to make up a few simple routes to figure out how to stop the lesser payouts from energizing also. I always end up having to use the next reels other closed switches to send the signals back to the previous payout reels switches to make each payout separate from the next lowest.

This how I figured it has to be without resistors.

[OldReno]

I would guess that the 20 coin pay (which is for multiple types of symbols...) is wired as a secondary and separate part of the reel boards.  In other words, it is probably a couple of rows of buttons below the top cut of the wiper assemblys.  This secondary cut will determine when the 20 coin pay segment is lit (powered), and may be run through a relay which when activated will complete the 20 coin pay to be hot.
To rephrase: a 3 orange 10 coin pay is going to be handled by a different part of the reel boards than is a 4 orange 20 coin pay.  The 20 coin pay will only be energized when all 4 reels have an orange on it.

You have spent many hours on this so far it seems.
Let me ask a question:
Have you checked for absolute certainty that your reel strips are correct, and that they match the cuts for each and every symbol on all 4 reels?
If not I urge you to check the position of EVERY symbol, to be sure that they are all consistent. In other words if on reel # 3, an orange cut is in position #6 let's say, then every other orange on that reel should and must also index on position #6.
If you can tell me that you have for certain taken the time and checked each symbol's position, then I will sleep better at night.  (sure glad I'm not doing this project...)
No, the bally doesn't use resistors in determining pays, it's all in the cuts, and wipers isolation.

Oh, I see by looking at a photo above, your machine does NOT pay from right to left.  This is probably a good thing, and should simplify the wiring a little bit.  Time to ponder this..........
If you have time, for giggles post us a listing of your reel strips..., eg.
Reel 1      Reel 2      Reel 3     Reel 4
or             pl             pl           bar
ch             or            or          be
etc......