How are the cards selected

[DorothyMacaw]

At the bar in Las Vegas killing time playing Jacks or Better on a Game King I got thinking about the semi-RNG.

Does anyone know when the numbers are set? In a S2000 the RNG's numbers are set the instant the PLAY button is pressed. On a Game King does the RNG stop rollinmg and lock the entire deck when the PLAY button is pressed - or - does it spit out 5 numbers and keep rolling over as each new card is dealt?

This information isn't going to change anything for me - I am just curious.

 - Dorothy

[uniman]

I heard, but not confirmed, that 5 cards are delt and the other 47 are spinning around until you discard and then hit the deal button.
Interesting question, maybe someone else has more details on this?

[stayouttadabunker]

I think there's two little elves down there...
One sticks glue onto the cards while the other one slaps them on the screen...



I have no idea...it was just a thought in my mind...

[StatFreak]

We've had this discussion in the past. The possibilities are:

• 5 random cards are selected, after which the RNG keep churning until the draw button is pressed, when 0-5 more cards are selected and displayed, depending on how many cards the player discards.
• 10 random cards are selected and stacked in the order chosen*. The first 5 are displayed. When the player draws, the holes are filled from the remaining 5 cards in the order selected.
• 10 random cards are selected. The first 5 are displayed, and the second 5 are "placed" behind the first 5 so that each draw card is assigned a "position." The draw cards received depend on the cards selected for discard.

Without disassembling the code, it's impossible to tell which way is used, but at the end of the day, there is no difference in the odds of any final outcome to the player as long as the cards are pulled and placed blindly via the RNG output.

(It would be altogether different if the program looked at the first 5 cards and placed the second set of five in such a way as to prevent large payouts. That would be illegal. Heck, the gaming commission just might have to bring Ron Harris out of his forced -- er, "retirement" to look into it. 


Stat




*They could select and stack more than 10 cards -- even all 52 -- but it wouldn't matter, since they would never be needed.

[Yoeddy1]

Isn't there a little man behind a curtain inside of of the machine that makes the decision?

[StatFreak]

Isn't there a little man behind a curtain inside of of the machine that makes the decision?

There was once, but he starved to death because the casinos were too cheap to feed him. 

[uniman]

If I pour my drink down the coin slot could I claim the little man was thirsty? 
The way my video poker luck has been lately I need to get that little man drunk!

[DorothyMacaw]

Thank you Stat

 You lived up to your handle.

 I am sorry if I had posted something that had already been asked and answered. But now it makes better sense to me.

 You guys are soooooooooooo smart.

 - Dorothy

[knagl]

I heard, but not confirmed, that 5 cards are delt and the other 47 are spinning around until you discard and then hit the deal button.
Interesting question, maybe someone else has more details on this?

It is my understanding and belief that modern day machines such as the Game King (and perhaps even the PE+) in a regulated jurisdiction like Nevada use a method as described by Uniman in the quote above.

That seems to be confirmed by a 1991 interview with an IGT software engineer, as found in the following section of the American Casino Guide from 2006 (and that same interview was just re-printed in the 2011 edition).  Here's a link to that page of the interview:

http://bit.ly/ds1yy2

[reho33]

Give me 1975 Binion's Horseshoe single deck BlackJack anyday (dreaming lol)

[StatFreak]

Give me 1975 Binion's Horseshoe single deck BlackJack anyday (dreaming lol)

 

Your comment makes me think of Harold's Club in Reno. That was the second casino to have kicked me out.   (I don't say barred because I went back a month later and played less aggressively (i.e., less greedily) and was left alone.

Card counting comments aside, Harold's Club was a nice place to gamble. I always liked that casino.

[CaptainHappy]

Give me 1975 Binion's Horseshoe single deck BlackJack anyday (dreaming lol)

 

Your comment makes me think of Harold's Club in Reno. That was the second casino to have kicked me out.   (I don't say barred because I went back a month later and played less aggressively (i.e., less greedily) and was left alone.

Card counting comments aside, Harold's Club was a nice place to gamble. I always liked that casino.

You get kicked out everywhere!!!

CH

[CaptainHappy]

I heard, but not confirmed, that 5 cards are delt and the other 47 are spinning around until you discard and then hit the deal button.
Interesting question, maybe someone else has more details on this?

It is my understanding and belief that modern day machines such as the Game King (and perhaps even the PE+) in a regulated jurisdiction like Nevada use a method as described by Uniman in the quote above.

That seems to be confirmed by a 1991 interview with an IGT software engineer, as found in the following section of the American Casino Guide from 2006 (and that same interview was just re-printed in the 2011 edition).  Here's a link to that page of the interview:

http://bit.ly/ds1yy2

 

Random KARMA Storm just occurred here since my last video poker session on Friday night was good!

CaptainHappy

[brichter]

Give me 1975 Binion's Horseshoe single deck BlackJack anyday (dreaming lol)

 

Your comment makes me think of Harold's Club in Reno. That was the second casino to have kicked me out.   (I don't say barred because I went back a month later and played less aggressively (i.e., less greedily) and was left alone.

Card counting comments aside, Harold's Club was a nice place to gamble. I always liked that casino.

You get kicked out everywhere!!!

CH

Yup, if you're just a little less aggressive you can take them for, say, $260 at the Aquarius on the 3rd of January, and they don't kick you out... just gotta wait until you start getting the stinkeye and collect an extra person watching, pack it up and head to your room. Of course, there's a price to pay, it hurts to sit on a fat wallet.

[stayouttadabunker]

"I'm going for the flush, Dad!"    I love that kid in the article...

[StatFreak]

"I'm going for the flush, Dad!"    I love that kid in the article...

At his age he should be saying, "You finish the hand, Dad. I'm going after the cocktail waitress!"   

[kforeman]

i spoke with an IGT software engineer at a training class last year about this very issue.  it seems that nowadays on IGT games the standard method is for the RNG to lock onto 10 random cards as soon as the first coin is bet then deal them in the order they were selected - as Stat describes in the second possibility.  i have been told in the past that the 3rd possibility has also been used but i don't know how current that possibility is.  also you must keep in mind that each manufacturer probably uses whichever method they think is best for as long as they like it.

and a small correction must be made - the outcome of all games is set as soon as the first credit is bet.  you can press bet 1 on any game, walk away for any amount of time and come back to the same exact outcome as you would have had if you had just played out the hand normally.  it's hilarious to see people playing the 3 coin Sizzling 7's that hit the bet 1 button twice, do a little superstitious move, then hit the bet max button because that's the only way they can win...

[StatFreak]

Thanks for looking into this kforeman.

I feel that I must point out that not all games select their outcome when the first coin is inserted or the first button is pressed. Any game that allows the player to vary their bet, the number of lines played, and the inclusion of any bonus options before committing the credits (most 5-reel multi-line games, video or stepper based) does not select the outcome until the spin button is pressed or the spin is initiated (in some cases by selecting the number of coins to bet.) Those games also allow the player to cash out without betting, even after selecting the number of coins and/or lines, etc.

A more generally accurate statement would be to say that just about all machines stop the RNG and select the outcome at precisely the moment of the player's first action that actually commits a bet.

[kforeman]

Thanks for looking into this kforeman.

I feel that I must point out that not all games select their outcome when the first coin is inserted or the first button is pressed. Any game that allows the player to vary their bet, the number of lines played, and the inclusion of any bonus options before committing the credits (most 5-reel multi-line games, video or stepper based) does not select the outcome until the spin button is pressed or the spin is initiated (in some cases by selecting the number of coins to bet.) Those games also allow the player to cash out without betting, even after selecting the number of coins and/or lines, etc.

i said nothing about pressing the first button, my statement was regarding placing the first credit bet; two totally different actions.  changing the number of lines is not making a bet, hence the game will still allow cashout, run the RNG, etc.  i don't know of any slot machines, multi-line or not, that will allow a player to select the number of credits bet per line without committing the bet and stopping the RNG and spinning the reels all within nanoseconds of each other.
i must admit that all of my experience is in AZ so software for other jurisdictions or software that is 15+ years old may allow a player to place a bet then pull it back or lower the bet before stopping the RNG and spinning the reels, honestly dunno 

A more generally accurate statement would be to say that just about all machines stop the RNG and select the outcome at precisely the moment of the player's first action that actually commits a bet.

sounds a little bit like what i said...as soon as the first credit is bet