What in the hell is this country coming to?

[89chevyman]

OK here it goes, got no place else to vent,  except to my wife, but she's the one that told me about this, what do the rest of you Americans think?
  The fine leader of our country/president(if you want to call him that) has now decided to allow 80,000 immigrants to enter these United States of America. 80,000??????? This is to show "good will" & would be in "the best intrests of the United States".  BULLS_ _ IT!!!!  ARE YOU FREAKIN' KIDDING ME???????   Lets see, 80,000 more people to be added to our current rising population of illegal aliens? What the hell are these "immigrants" going to do for work? There sure the hell aren't any job openings in my neighborhood, how about yours (look in the Help Wanted section of your local paper)?  Most states are already at the breaking point with unemployed AMERICANS. Thousands of Americans are losing their homes to foreclosure. Add on top of that the illegals already here, the welfare bloodsuckers & all the rest of the "this country owes me a living" dirt bags and this Idiot President wants to add, yes ADD, an additional 80,000 to our nearly bankrupt country??? You know who these fine upstanding immigrants are going to turn out to be that will be entering our country? They ain't gonna be the Roosevelts, that's for damn sure. They'll be the criminals, the diseased, poverty stricken lowlifes that these other countries are tired of supporting!!!! Or, out and out terrorists. Ohhhh, but our President sees this as a "humanitarian" effort. What about taking care of 80,000 plus in this country that are already in need of jobs and housing?? How about helping OUR sick and poor here first?  How about taking care of our soldiers and Veterians first?  I most certainly don't see Africa, Lybia or South America offering to do these things for any Americans that would want to go to their country. Nooooo, lets GIVE these folks a free place to live, a free education, money in there pockets, free medical/dental (most of them will be needing THOUSANDS of dollars worth of medical treatment since most of their countries have socialized medicine), low interest loans, civil rights and maybe even, GOD forbid, JOBS!!!!  Oh did I say a bad word? They would have to work? Oh no, no, no we can't have that now can we? BUT, by damn they'll be able to vote, get a drivers license(without insurance) & a Social Security card. And with that, the key word was spoken.....VOTES. They will have opportunities that even naturalized citizens of American are not afforded.  Ever try getting a loan for a small business? Or apply for welfare if you are working, but barely able to support your family? "I'm sorry, sir, you make $2.00 more a month than our poverty level, we can't help you" or "I'm sorry, you have a work history and are over qualified for the job" or I'm sorry we can't medically treat you, you have an income and you're an American"   I'm sure that our President will see that they become citizens, just like all the other illegals have become without waiting their turn or going through the legal process to become a true LEGAL American. Hell, if I were an illegal trying to become an American citizen and I saw these 80,000 jump ahead of me,  I'd be voting for ANY reform bill myself.  And why would these 80,000 receive all this? Because they are pooooor immigrants from countries that wouldn't give a crap if they left or not.  It just gives THEIR people more jobs, like 80,000 more.
   Well I guess I have said enough. To sum this all up, what the hell has happened to this COUNTRY?????  We, THE PEOPLE, need to stop this idiotic government and administration before it's too late. If this type of anti-America governing continues, we WILL be the MINORITY, we WILL be the ones begging in the streets. Medicare and Social Security is on its' way out folks. I'm 57 and would have liked to retired when I reached 62, then it became 67, the way its going, it'll be 72. One suggestion, since this is going happen, how bout we trade 80,000 of our criminals and career welfare receiptants with these other countries? 
   Goodnight and good luck Mr. and Mrs. America, GOD help us all,  we'll need all we can get.

Oh, by the way......funny thing, most of the 80,000 are coming from Muslim nations or is THAT toooo politically incorrect to mention, sorry if I offend anyone...................NOT??? 

[jay]

First let me qualify myself - I am Canadian, not American.

I will point out that the US was founded on immigration. There is nothing wrong with Immigration, there is nothing wrong with universal health care etc.
What privledged americans don't want is to have to line up for their services (due to over population), pay higher taxes to subsidize free loaders and no one blames them.

The word immigrant typically conjurs up the concept of refugee and tax burden but that is not always the case. I lived and worked in the US for 7 years, I had a green card for 5 of the years I lived there and another 2 after i moved back. I specialize in IT management and was only offered the job after the other 27 local applicants did not have the skills or background in the industry. I went home in 2007 when the economy tanked.

You need to remember the only true Americans were the Mexican peoples left on the North side of the border when the California line was drawn and the first nations (native indians) who were robbed and raped, and now take pride in celebrating columbas day. 

The ideal situation for immigration is job creation. Here in Canada we will fast track any foreign person that comes to Canada to establish a business, and employees two of our nationals for a minimum of two years. We get both the investment and the job creation. We aslo have a policy that if you are coming to Canada we have certain less populas areas. Ie Manitobia - and one of the conditions of immigration is the establishment of a home in some of these areas. This increases the tax base at the municipal, provincal (state) as well as the federal levels.

If you want to take a position of outrage and make a difference - run for goverment office, or align with a politican that supports your views and help their candacy by getting out and helping campain. You can make a difference but ranting on a slot forum isn't likey to change the world.

[Yoeddy1]

We are in "the final days" my friend.  The world is going to go up in flames.  I used to be a CNN/MSNBC junkie, but anymore I get so pissed off I have to do it in moderation or my blood pressure winds up through the roof.  Gas prices, taxes, jobs, catering to non-US citizens, etc...makes you feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest doesn't it?

Jason

[PWRSTROKE]

I read most of this from both parts.  I am much more "mellor" now in my older age but still have the get up and go.   Jay-Nicely put but I must say instead of "Entering the dragon" We must say "Entering the Dipliomat"-------------- .  Back to gaming shall we ,  Remember,  Politics --"it is what it is",  For them on the most part,  We have little control over.  Love your wife,kids,yourself and take care of your own (and as a famous quote was said "Carry a Big Stick"------------B.

[89chevyman]

Let me qualify myself- I am an American.

 It was not my intention to begin "flaming this subject". Jay, I don't know you, but I'm sure your a fine enough person and respect your point of view.
   I was merely expressing my "Free speech, free thought and everything terrible that entails", kind of like our Constitution. I thought that this is what the forum was set up for (as stated in the beginning).  I am not forcing my opinion on others or "flaming" as this is NOT acceptable on this forum, as also stated in the beginning.  Had I known that posting my "ranting" were a violation on this slot site and that this forum was not intended for expressing ones "Freedom of speech" or "Freedom of thought" and was intended for the sole purpose of ranting about slot machines, then I apologize to all my friends here at NLG.
   Glad you had another country to go to when our economy tanked, most of us stay here because its our home, we are loyal and know that things will turn around when the right people are voted into office to govern "for the people, by the people". Our current administration/government has all but forgotten those words. Hopefully we will stop "outsourcing" to foreign countries to bolster their dollar. *Warning: "opinion" coming up: I feel that this is one of the major downfalls of our economy, keep the jobs/money here. Illegals sending money "back home" to be spent there, does nothing for the economy here. With the power of voting, things will change. I am too old to be running for office, but do assist with campaigning for my senator and I vote. 
  Oh no there I go again "ranting". Sorry, I'll stop. A
  Say, gosh I think IGT S+ machines are going to be the Mills machines of the future. Boy, I sure hope so, because I have invested a lot of money into restoring them. I would say the most darnedest machines are Sigma 300s. Finding parts are darn near impossible. Those gosh darn people that made them really angered me by not making more parts available. That really ticked me off.  Hey, how bout that Charlie Sheen?

[knagl]

I can't speak for Jay, but I read his post as Jay offering up his take on your post as a typical NLG user, not as Moderator Jay.  You didn't flame anything, and you made your post in the proper Rants and Raves category.

One thing I really love about this site is that (with rare exception) people are still cordial and respectful to each other, even if their viewpoints clash.  It's rare to see on an Internet forum, and it's yet another thing that makes NLG a fantastic site, and it's because of its fantastic members.

[brichter]

It's ok, nobody said your opinion was a violation of anything on the site, nor did anyone accuse you of "flaming". Nobody tried to infringe on your right to free speech, either. One of the tricky parts of free speech is that it doesn't just apply to one person. It applies equally to all, and Jay offered his opinion, as did Jason. Now, I'm going to offer mine:

 
We can't keep the manufacturing here, the companies that tried wouldn't even be close to competitive in the global market, and it is a global market, like it or not. To ignore selling your product overseas is to doom your business to a quick and silent death. Labor costs are too high here in the US, and we all know where the blame for that lies. Manufacturing here puts business on an uneven playing field with the rest of their competition because production costs are too high.

The Bush administration was just as bullish on outsourcing as the current one, as they have ALL been for decades now. I work at one of these American "global" companies, so I have a small bit of knowledge concerning this subject. Remember when Chrysler started selling rebadged cars made by Mitsubishi back in the 70s? We haven't been a world power in manufacturing since Japan took over. The manufacturing jobs have moved all over the globe since then. Now China and Indonesia have the economic advantage, but in a decade the standard of living there will have come up enough that it will move to some other area on the globe.

As far as immigrants sending money overseas, it's a pittance. We'd save more by cutting the waste from the government, but neither political party has proven to be able to do that in the least, no matter what their campaign promises were. As far as "the criminals, the diseased, poverty stricken lowlifes", that's who this country was built by. Will we get some bad ones? Sure we will, but we always have, it hasn't killed us yet, and I doubt if this 80,000 you speak of will be the tipping point. The H1B visa program does more to hurt us than these folks will, because these immigrants will become citizens and spend their money here, whereas a large percentage of H1Bs send money back home because that's where they will retire and spend the money they sent.

Our only hope is to concentrate where we've been strongest for the past 4 decades, innovation and invention. Unfortunately, that requires investing a lot more in schools than we do as well as getting the schools to concentrate on the basics of education, and failure to execute here will kill us faster than anything else. That's where the foreigners are killing us...

[cowboygames]

Where does the blame lie for labor costs?

[brichter]

The political arms of the unions. They suck the dues from the members to support to their political agenda, while keeping the compensation for the unions just high enough that they can get the members to buy into the whole "You have to be in a union or you're gonna get screwed by your employer" mantra. Politics in the unions have turned most of them from good to evil, and those are just as bad as the government everyone screams about. 

I've worked for unions in 3 separate industries, and I'll never go down the path of keeping the fat cat clowns running the unions in power ever again.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel the concept of collective bargaining is bad, unions were a big reason why our labor laws are set up the way they are, and were a necessary concept to break the backs of corporations that abused their workers. Safety on the job was and still is a huge concern, and before unions there were no mandated safety laws. Unions were responsible for improving working conditions for not only their members but the whole American labor force, and our country would not be where it is today without them. 

However, what unions are has changed, and for the worse. You can see what the unions did for our auto industry, took it to the heights of manufacturing prowess then rode that flaming rocket straight into the ground, while other auto manufacturers here in the US were able to save their companies during the credit crunch because the benefits packages weren't breaking their backs while the revenues were down because they were able to negotiate with the employees directly to adjust compensation to economic conditions. Those companies survived and even flourished while the Big 3 were battered beyond relief.

The same thing is happening everywhere, unions won't deal when the money tightens up, so employees suffer. Where I live, the City asked for a reduction in pay and benefits so they could keep all the firefighters employed, the union said no and wouldn't negotiate at all. So, when the next year's budget came out, almost 50 firefighting positions were cut, and the union was up in arms about how the city was going to burn down because of this, and those poor 49 unemployed firefighters didn't have jobs anymore, and how  the city was such a big mean ogre for cutting the positions.

If the money isn't there because the tax revenues are down, something has to give. The union decided to go ahead and turn their backs on their members to exercise their perceived political power. Unfortunately for them, the public raised such a stink that the union asked to reopen the negotiations after those folks were laid off and renegotiated the terms of the contract and the city hired the firefighters back. The members got lucky that time because there was nothing to force the city to hire them back. There were certain factions in the city gov't. that only wanted to bring back half of them, and those politicians almost succeeded.

If you want to support the unions' political positions, that fine by me, we're each entitled to our own opinion. But, you won't see the USA become the manufacturing juggernaut it once was in the ever again unless we undergo huge changes in that are, and I don't see that happening. Our only other hope is to perform better in the area I've already stated.

[channelmaniac]

What is wrong with immigrants coming here and taking the jobs nobody wants?

You can't tell me that Americans want to do them... otherwise we wouldn't have imported soooo many Chinese people to work on the railroads in the 1800s.

Chinese, Italian, Irish, etc... all the waves of immigrants came in to do to the low end labor in this country. I say fast track them to citizenship if they aren't tied to some jackass terror group. We have more to fear from legal people coming across the border to take airliner training than illegals that just want work.

Give 'em the right paperwork, give 'em citizenship in just a few years, and let them pay the proper taxes like the rest of us.

[IFFV68]

Everyone is missing the Big Picture,
The good old U.S.A. is slowly becoming a Socialist country.
They want illegals in this country from Mexico The more the better.
They will make them Legal Citizens  with the stroke of a pen & they will vote Democrat.   
That is the only way to keep the Democrat  Party going.
Everything they have tried has failed.
Look it up.

It's all about votes.

[brichter]

Hey, folks. It just might be that there's a good old-fashioned hoodwinking going on here:

According to the stats, Obama's been deporting illegals at a higher rate than Bush did ever since he got into office:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html

This isn't about Hispanic immigrants, here's the breakdown:

Africa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15,500
East Asia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17,000
Europe and Central Asia . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Latin America/Caribbean. . . . . . . . . . . 5,000
Near East/South Asia. . . . . . . . . . . 35,000
Unallocated Reserve . . . . . . . . . . . . 5,000

That's only 5000 from Latin America and the Caribbean islands.

There's something fishy going on here...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/president-obama-signs-presidential-determination-authorizing-80000-refugee-admissio

Looks like this happened almost 2 years ago (September 2009).

There are a bunch of posts on blog sites from back in 2010 saying it's happening (or already happened) again, but I find it very suspicious that the numbers quoted are almost the same as the 2009 article from the White House, and there's nothing anywhere in any reputable news source about this happening any time later than 2009. Every single Google hit that doesn't reference the original 2009 action have the exact same wording and refer back to the same source which isn't a news outlet, it's a web site called "The Last Crusade".  Looks like they're just rehashing ancient history, trying to drum up website hits in hope of getting some click-through revenue.

If someone can post a link to the 2010 or 2011 declaration, I'd really appreciate it, because I can't find one anywhere.

Mods, I see we don't have my favorite political thread smiley available, please do the needful:

[poppo]

Where does the blame lie for labor costs?

IMO unions. People want to be paid $35 hr to install a nut on some part on an assembly line, and have 15 minute breaks every hour. When I was in CA the company had to have union electricians. Back then the payroll checks/direct deposit stubs were delivered by FedEx or some other courier. If the paychecks/direct deposit stubs were not delivered by 8:00am (even though they were on the way, or the money was already in the bank for those on direct deposit), the union people could all just sit down and wait (while getting paid) until they showed up.

Also while living in CA, there were massive amounts of 'undocumented workers' working in the fields. How many 'Americans' want to do that sort of work for minimum wage? Get rid of the immigrants and expect to pay $12 for a tomato once the 'American' field workers start a union.

[89chevyman]

Yup, there is definitely hoodwinking, but its the government and the admini-stray-tion, not the information posted here (unless you believe everything in The Washington Post).   Happy reading:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/148671.pdf

[brichter]

Yup, there is definitely hoodwinking, but its the government and the admini-stray-tion, not the information posted here (unless you believe everything in The Washington Post).   Happy reading:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/148671.pdf

Thanks, chevyman, that's what I couldn't find.. 

However, it doesn't look like the gov't is trying to hoodwink anyone, unless you believe publishing their intent to the whole world is meant to be deceptive. Perhaps you could explain your statement? 

Since you found out the Washington Post is lying about the deportation of illegal aliens, I'll wait for you to post the link to the real numbers.

[cowboygames]

You guys make some good points and some that seem a little biased. I'm part of the IBEW Local and I know for a fact that the 300+ members of our local eat up less than 3% of our employers gross income. I paid over 25k in taxes last year, put another 50k into the American economy and provide part time work for 2 local residents for another 5k annually. In Wy we have a right to work state, so we bargain for what we can knowing that by law we can't strike and by law we don't have to be a part of the union to have union protections. We have a union more for job protections than anything else, but we make a good wage, because we happen to work for a business that make very good money. We have to work to the same retirment age as anyone else and our benefits package is comparable to other jobs in the same field union and nonunion. So, you can say it's the fault of the unions or you can say it's the fault of the companies that gave up more than they could afford to, but don't group all unions together as my union is probably as differant from one in say Ohio as a horse is from a cow. That would be like me saying all retired people just want to bleed medicare and social security for everything they can get and screw everyone else. Just my opinion...

[Op-Bell]

Ok, here's a pop quiz. Which middle-class-America-hating, immigrant-loving, pinko liberal asswipe am I quoting below on the subject of income redistribution and the best way to do it?

"As awesomely productive as market capitalism has proved to be, its Achilles' heel is a growing perception that its rewards, increasingly skewed to the skilled, are not distributed justly. A dysfunctional US education system has failed to prevent a shortage of skilled workers and a surfeit of lesser skilled ones, expanding the pay gap between the two groups. Unless America's education system can raise skill levels as quickly as technology requires, skilled workers will continue to earn greater wage increases, leading to ever more disturbing extremes of income concentration. We need to address increasing income equality now. By opening our borders to large numbers of immigrant workers, we would provide a new source of competition for higher earning employees, thus driving down their wages."

Answer after the break.

[brichter]

Where does the blame lie for labor costs?

IMO unions. People want to be paid $35 hr to install a nut on some part on an assembly line, and have 15 minute breaks every hour. When I was in CA the company had to have union electricians. Back then the payroll checks/direct deposit stubs were delivered by FedEx or some other courier. If the paychecks/direct deposit stubs were not delivered by 8:00am (even though they were on the way, or the money was already in the bank for those on direct deposit), the union people could all just sit down and wait (while getting paid) until they showed up.

Also while living in CA, there were massive amounts of 'undocumented workers' working in the fields. How many 'Americans' want to do that sort of work for minimum wage? Get rid of the immigrants and expect to pay $12 for a tomato once the 'American' field workers start a union.

 

Remind me to tell you about the strike for an air conditioned lunchroom and a penny an hour...

[Op-Bell]

The man who is concerned that an engineer might make enough to live on without his wife having to work while the man who cuts the grass only makes $25000, while remaining blissfully unconcerned that the average CEO now makes over 500 times the salary of the average worker and the top 13 hedge fund managers avoid enough tax by sliding through the capital gains loophole to pay the wages and benefits of 300,000 teachers, is ....


Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve.


He wrote that in his memoir, quoted by Newsweek, but for some inexplicable reason nobody seemed to notice.

Don't be blind-sided by the politics, they are just a way to deceive you and get you worked up about the wrong thing while you get robbed blind behind your back. Impoverishment of the middle class is official policy of the people who actually run the country, and has been the same now through a number of administrations of both parties. The present bout of union-bashing should be looked at very carefully in the light of this remarkable statement to see what may be the unintended consequences for the rest of us. As a union steward once said to me, long ago, when I was grumbling about my pay relative to someone else: "It isn't that he gets paid too much, it's that you don't get paid enough".

[brichter]

You guys make some good points and some that seem a little biased. I'm part of the IBEW Local 612 and I know for a fact that the 300+ members of our local eat up less than 3% of our employers gross income. I paid over 25k in taxes last year, put another 50k into the American economy and provide part time work for 2 local residents for another 5k annually. In Wy we have a right to work state, so we bargain for what we can knowing that by law we can't strike and by law we don't have to be a part of the union to have union protections. We have a union more for job protections than anything else, but we make a good wage, because we happen to work for a business that make very good money. We have to work to the same retirment age as anyone else and our benefits package is comparable to other jobs in the same field union and nonunion. So, you can say it's the fault of the unions or you can say it's the fault of the companies that gave up more than they could afford to, but don't group all unions together as my union is probably as differant from one in say Ohio as a horse is from a cow. That would be like me saying all retired people just want to bleed medicare and social security for everything they can get and screw everyone else. Just my opinion...

As I said, it's not the unions themselves that are the problem, it's the political alignments they make. Your union in Wyoming doesn't sound as screwed up as the ones here in California, and that probably has somewhat to do with the fact that Wyoming is a right to work state, California is not. I've worked for good unions before, but not a single one of those was in California... They play politics with the dues and don't bat an eye at throwing the members under the bus to back their political power plays.

I'm a non-union, salaried worker now and I'm happy to be one. We don't support dead wood where I work, if you're not performing, you'll be given a chance to improve or leave. I used to hate working hard at my job as a mechanic and seeing some clown that was  maxing book time on every job he touched, spending most of his time drinking coffee and making more money than I did, not because he was better at his job, but because he had been there longer than I had. We all get good salaries where I work now and there are a couple different methods in place to compensate those who perform well.

I don't fault those that want to join unions, I just choose not to. 

[89chevyman]

Hey poppo.
  Know what you're saying and agree, most Americans now wouldn't do that kind of work for minimum wage. If this were the Depression era (a road we are headed down) these jobs would have had men and women lining up. They needed and wanted to work. Those folks had pride and didn't want a hand out. They worked hard and struggled for every dime they got. It was a necessity, work or starve. 
 Unfortunately, today, it's easier to have the government GIVE out a check and food every month. Not worry about taxes or medical insurance(we all won't have to worry about that soon)and live the welfare lifestyle. If these recipients were given a choice to either work and get paid or lose their welfare benefits, watch how many would be taking those jobs. I'm talking about the welfare and social security disability fraud recipients, not the truly medically disabled. The cost savings and boost to the economy would be staggering. But, that would have to be without unions involved. But of course the ACLU would get involved and we're right back to where we are today so we may has well leave things alone.     
 Just one last thought, won't this be interesting to look back on in 2 years? Just to see what has changed?
 
Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, where ever you are.

[brichter]

The man who is concerned that an engineer might make enough to live on without his wife having to work while the man who cuts the grass only makes $25000, while remaining blissfully unconcerned that the average CEO now makes over 500 times the salary of the average worker and the top 13 hedge fund managers avoid enough tax by sliding through the capital gains loophole to pay the wages and benefits of 300,000 teachers, is ....


Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve.


He wrote that in his memoir, quoted by Newsweek, but for some inexplicable reason nobody seemed to notice.

Don't be blind-sided by the politics, they are just a way to deceive you and get you worked up about the wrong thing while you get robbed blind behind your back. Impoverishment of the middle class is official policy of the people who actually run the country, and has been the same now through a number of administrations of both parties. The present bout of union-bashing should be looked at very carefully in the light of this remarkable statement to see what may be the unintended consequences for the rest of us. As a union steward once said to me, long ago, when I was grumbling about my pay relative to someone else: "It isn't that he gets paid too much, it's that you don't get paid enough".

That's the same clown who called the world financial crunch a "once-in-a-century credit tsunami", and in the same breath, said he was in "shocked disbelief" because he assumed lending institutions would protect their shareholders from the credit market fallout.  

Why would they do that, when they could pass the losses on to their shareholders, and in turn get bailed out by the taxpayers so they didn't lose their hefty paychecks and big bonuses?

[89chevyman]

Hey brichter,
  Was only doing a little tongue and cheek with the hoodwinking, "makin' a funny",sorry.  As far as the Washington Post, they are a media outlet. All media leans towards with what ever political wind is blowing or what party they are affiliated with(mostly affiliated with). Be it CNN, MSNBC or the hated FOX Network, they ALL put their "spin" on it and don't make it easy for us average guys. Ya gotta filter out the BS, read between the lines and only then,  believe half of what you find out from all other sources. :89  Then formulate your own personal opinion about the subject matter based on fact not crap.  As far as the numbers go, with that being the presidents "proposal for 2011" we won't know the true numbers until the immigrants are already on their way or already here, probably next year. (as I read it)
 

[brichter]

Hey brichter,
  Was only doing a little tongue and cheek with the hoodwinking, "makin' a funny",sorry.  As far as the Washington Post, they are a media outlet. All media leans towards with what ever political wind is blowing or what party they are affiliated with(mostly affiliated with). Be it CNN, MSNBC or the hated FOX Network, they ALL put their "spin" on it and don't make it easy for us average guys. Ya gotta filter out the BS, read between the lines and only then,  believe half of what you find out from all other sources. :89  Then formulate your own personal opinion about the subject matter based on fact not crap.  As far as the numbers go, with that being the presidents "proposal for 2011" we won't know the true numbers until the immigrants are already on their way or already here, probably next year. (as I read it)
 

Yup, and I trust the Washington Post as much as I do "the Last Crusade" or the WSJ.  That's why I was asking for links to the real numbers that will be allowed in from a non-media source.

However, the numbers in the WP article concerning the historical deportation levels are quoted as being sourced from ICE, and the numbers are on the ICE web site. So, this time I'll choose to believe what they print since that article was "based on fact, not crap".

http://www.ice.gov/foia/readingroom.htm

[89chevyman]

Hey bricher,
   Hope you didn't misunderstand my "fact not crap" statement, wasn't directed at you personally, just was in general, hope you didn't take it that way. There are some out there that feel everything put into print or aired on national television is gospel.  Thank God we live in a country where we can choose what to believe in, not be told what to believe in and that we can agree to disagree no matter what our personal opinions are. Hopefully nobody came away angry at the thoughts expressed here and glad to see that there are still people out there that can still think for themselves and are able to exercise their freedom(s) without persecution. Is this a great country or what??

BTW
 In what section were those numbers on the ICE site?  Probably right in front of my face, but sometimes I can be soooo 

Have a great day!!