1090 5cm JPO EM hopper motor won't disengage

[StatFreak]

Hey guys, it's my turn to ask for help with my Bally EM.

First, the machine had been sitting for a few months before this problem arose, so I naturally suspect a frozen relay or bad contacts on some blade switch or another. Second, there are no coins in the hopper.

The problem started when I turned the machine on to check something when responding to a post a while back. I set up a payout and manually activated the coin out lever on the hopper until the payout had been reached, but the hopper failed to turn off.

Details:
The machine still functions perfectly other than the hopper motor refusing to turn off (no pesky coins coming out, since it's empty.) I can coin up the machine to any cm that I wish. I can pull the handle and play it. If I win, the payout circuits all function as they should – the bell rings, the coin out mech on the hopper advances the cm and coin payout units, the LED counter advances, then the bell stops and the winner paid lamp lights when the correct number of coins has been paid. The hopper payout mech does not advance the payout counter once the winner paid has been satisfied (machine idle mode) or on a losing payout.

The multiplier relay resets upon next coin, the winner paid goes out, the LED resets and and the coin payout counter resets upon pulling the handle...   but the damned hopper motor won't turn off. (Continuous AC from ??)


I checked the relay on the hopper and it seems to be moving freely. It's hard to tell if it engages or not while in the machine. The blades on the hopper and the reel mech all seem to be okay and I played a few dozen quick games to clear out the cobwebs, as it were.

Important snag: The machine was modified (by LA Slots before purchase) to pay out all wins (1000 coins max), so the safety timeout relay doesn't time out. It can be tripped and does cut power to the machine when it is tripped (not bypassed), but it was somehow adjusted for infinite hopper payouts. The JP reset lock has been disconnected and Larry obviously did whatever was necessary to make this mod work. I really don't know what that entailed.

I've had the machine for about 15 years and never had a problem (other than those fixed by simple cleaning, lubing, etc.)

Stat

[CaptainHappy]

Hey guys, it's my turn to ask for help with my Bally EM. :96-Stat

NO NOT ALLOWED!!!!  (Can you at least see the glow???)
 
I can't help you other than this shameless bump!

CH

Someone help him since he is always trying to help others!

[StatFreak]

...  (Can you at least see the glow???) ...

No glow. I don't do IE.   

[StatFreak]

     Up here.

The main question is where is the continuous voltage to the hopper motor coming from?

[Jim]

Stat.   long story short, when a win is detected, the payout relay coil is energized , this in turn closes the two parallel switches on that payout relay unit and put the hot side of 115vac to the motor. the common side is always on the other side of the motor.

In theory when the payout is complete, the common side is removed from the payout coil ( through the action of the wiper arms falling off the foil run for that hit)  and the coil is de-enegerized and the switches open and turn off the motor.

the only thing I could suggest: check the circuit that is a parallel circuit to the reel and hopper payout circuit. its supposed to remove the arc when the wiper arm falls off the foil run. it consists of two sets of switches, one on the payout relay switch, the other is the payout counter step-up arm switch. I would lean toward the payout relay switch, if this stays closed, it could back feed  the common through the carry over circuit. I guess you could put a piece of paper on the carry over traces and that would eliminate that as a cause.

Jim 

[StatFreak]

Thanks, Jim. I'll take a look, try your suggestion and let you know.

[StatFreak]

Jim, sorry for not getting back to you on this sooner.

Unfortunately, the problem still remains. I'm not very good at tracing wires in these machines.

The coin payout counter mech in this machine is completely separate from the hopper. It sits on the back right side bottom of the machine and plugs into two Molex connectors which join the main cable of wires going to the hopper and hopper cutoff timer. I tried the paper insulators first, then completely disconnected the counter, and the hopper still runs when power is applied to the machine.

There is a plastic covered relay at the bottom front of the hopper frame. I tried removing that for giggles, not really expecting the hopper to run without it, but just to see what would happen. Well, the hopper ran without it. The two sets of blade switches on the hopper are mounted at the back, making it impossible to see what they are doing or to mess with them at all when the hopper is in the machine. Their mechanical function seems okay.

I tested all of the blades for continuity at the back of the tabs (where the wires connect) and they all make contact when they are supposed to and break contact when they are supposed to with one exception, which I circled in the picture. There is nothing physically wrong with the blades or the contact, only that the two tabs still have continuity when the contacts are physically separated. This might be normal.

My pdf manual doesn't have any schematics and has no information about the connections or voltages on the large beau plug that the hopper connects to, so I guess I'll have to unwrap all of the wires in the main cable behind the hopper and start trying to figure out which ones carry the 110vac.

[StatFreak]

more..

[StatFreak]

I had another thought and tried powering the machine with the entire reel mech removed... and the hopper still runs.

It almost seems to me that it's being fed directly from the transformer or line in, but how would such a short be possible?

[poppo]

..and they all make contact when they are supposed to and break contact when they are supposed to with one exception, which I circled in the picture. There is nothing physically wrong with the blades or the contact, only that the two tabs still have continuity when the contacts are physically separated. This might be normal.

Have you tried slipping a piece of paper between them to see what happens?

[FOXSSLOTS1]

if I understand the problem - hopper keeps running even without the reel mechanism?   if so you have a short in the cabinet - try isolating the payout unit - put paper under it - check the contacts in the back of the payout unit (have grey/black  grey/yellow wires)  make sure they are OPEN and not making contact with any metal

[StatFreak]

..and they all make contact when they are supposed to and break contact when they are supposed to with one exception, which I circled in the picture. There is nothing physically wrong with the blades or the contact, only that the two tabs still have continuity when the contacts are physically separated. This might be normal.

Have you tried slipping a piece of paper between them to see what happens?

The problem is that I don't know whether those two coils are supposed to be energized or not. If you are referring to the specific blade I circled, it separates fine. There is electrical conductivity between the two blades even when that particular blade switch contact is broken. This could be a problem or not. There are other blades which are soldered together via jumper wires, and in this case the connectivity has to be coming from the wiring or another bad component on the hopper, so it depends on if this is by design or not.

[StatFreak]

if I understand the problem - hopper keeps running even without the reel mechanism?   if so you have a short in the cabinet - try isolating the payout unit - put paper under it - check the contacts in the back of the payout unit (have grey/black  grey/yellow wires)  make sure they are OPEN and not making contact with any metal

It's possible that I'm getting my nomenclature mixed up, but if the payout unit is the spring loaded disc assy that counts the coins, then it's not the problem. (See pics 7574 & 7571) I pulled out those two Molex connectors and removed the payout unit completely. Also looked for physical problems on it but found none.

...
The coin payout counter mech in this machine is completely separate from the hopper. It sits on the back right side bottom of the machine and plugs into two Molex connectors which join the main cable of wires going to the hopper and hopper cutoff timer. I tried the paper insulators first, then completely disconnected the counter, and the hopper still runs when power is applied to the machine.
...

There is a plastic covered relay at the bottom front of the hopper frame. I tried removing that for giggles, ...
the hopper ran without it.
...

[poppo]

[ If you are referring to the specific blade I circled, it separates fine. There is electrical conductivity between the two blades even when that particular blade switch contact is broken. This could be a problem or not.

Yes, I was talking about the blade. I though you meant they were staying physically connected when the assembly moved.

[StatFreak]

<ADD> I pulled this out of the previous post for emphasis:

The hopper runs with no reel mech, no payout unit and without the plastic covered relay located on the bottom at the front of the hopper frame.

Further, the rest of the machine functions PERFECTLY. I mean everything! The Insert Coin light/ Winner Paid light, the top relays for CM, the other relays that I can hear "clicking" when I manually actuate the coin out lever on the hopper (NOT directly on the counting unit) to the correct payout amount*, the handle release mech, the coin lockout coil, the LED win counter (and reset on next spin) -- in short, EVERYTHING.

If I had a video camera I'd post.


It behaves like the 110 is coming directly from the wall and not through any circuitry. I'm just not sure how that's possible.


* <ADD> once this has occurred, actuating the coin out lever on the hopper does NOT advance the counting disc any further (and it's not supposed to.)

[poppo]

FWIW, the contacts on that relay that you said you pulled, look pretty toasty. Maybe that relay de-energizes something else????

[StatFreak]

Poppo, I pried the cover off just for you. 

The relay is pristine. The black you saw are the center contacts which are made of carbon.

[StatFreak]

Here is a picture of the front of the blades. I included the third picture of the lower lugs because the lighting in the top picture makes them appear darkened when they are not.

[poppo]

So much for that theory. 

[StatFreak]

So much for that theory. 

For a crumby piece of plastic held on by two skimpy bumps, that cover was a Sonoma Beach to remove! 
At least I was able to test all four/eight contacts to be sure they were all making good connections.

[StatFreak]

So, does anyone have a schematic for the hopper beau plug connections or at least some color coding info for the transformer outputs?

[stayouttadabunker]

So, does anyone have a schematic for the hopper beau plug connections or at least some color coding info for the transformer outputs?

I don't have anything on this but unless you pulled out a whole bunch of wires and connectors and forgot where they went - you should be okay as it all worked for many years.

I was just looking at that excellent photo of the relay.
You take great pictures!
It's sooo neat to zoom them larger than life!

Anyways, while you tested it to make sure that they all had continuity
when you closed the circuit - my concern is with the darkest looking pin...
I would definitely clean the female connector to that pin.
It won't hurt to clean both the pin and the female connector
but it may help?

I'll bet you already have it back in with the Sonoma Beach clear plastic
cover snapped back on it though...
I usually work those covers off with the pointy tip of
an Exacto knife or jewelers screwdrivers.
There's a few of them type of relays in my modified pinball machine...

[StatFreak]

Bunker, I was going to comment on your 11111^th post but you blew right by it! 

That darker tab really isn't very dark, but it couldn't hurt to sand it lightly (the bottom lug, not the carbon contacts )

Actually, the machine had been sitting. That's the worst thing one can do with these machines. It had worked perfectly for years but I hadn't turned it on for months. At this point I'm not sure if the motor just started up when I powered it on or wouldn't turn off after I set one payout. All I'm sure of was that I had turned it on to check something so that I could answer someone else's post and ended up with my own problem.

If it was the latter (first started running when I set up a payout) that would suggest a stuck relay, but the evidence doesn't support that. Maybe it's a bad cap or diode? I don't have an inline capacitor tester or an ESR meter.

I'm afraid to start testing voltages between the female pins on the beau plug without any information. That would mean a systematic combinational check (1,2; 1,3; 1,4; ... 2,1; ... 2,22; ... 21,22) and I don't want to cause more problems. That's 210 voltage checks. Besides, it will be easier to remove the wrapping from the wires and trace them, if it comes to that.

[stayouttadabunker]

This sounds more and more like a stuck IC component not allowing
the current to turn "OFF" to the hopper? 
I wish I could help more...
I have no choice but to defer to the Bally EM wizards...I hope they can help you
find the solution and get your hopper working right! 

[StatFreak]

This sounds more and more like a stuck IC component not allowing
the current to turn "OFF" to the hopper?  
...

IC ?? What's that?! There isn't an IC within 3 inches of this machine! The closest one is in the calculator which is sitting on the edge of the slot stand about 4 inches to the left of this puppy. After that you'd have to travel three feet to the nearest S+.

The only IC inside the machine is the one in my digital watch when I put my arm inside...      Oh wait! I don't wear a digital watch!