New Programmer baby born at my house...

[stayouttadabunker]

of course, I don't remember whether I hit "Ctrl" or Alt" and "Print Screen"
(I attribute that to Stat's CRS rubbing off on me)
But here I try again and see if it comes up clearer>>
This one is burned using the 0xC000 in the "device offset" dialog box

I have no clue if these last two chips I burned are going to work...details at eleven

click on snapshot to see better>>>

[jdkmunch]

I hope they do!!!  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

[StatFreak]

...details at eleven

I hope they do!!!  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

You posted just after eleven.

[stayouttadabunker]

[You posted just after eleven.]   
maybe on the west coast!!

Beep,beep,beep...**** breaking news update from the East coast news...***   Both chips work!!!!!!!!!


The copy/paste (recommended by Op-Bell and re-enforced by Uniman) was tried first...I was so excited that I played a whole bucket of coins...whew!
It pays out perfectly and even has that wonderful little "pause" after every 100 pulls!

The second burn was installed using the "Device Offset" of 0xC00" ( duly insisted by Statfreak) was entered into the dialog box.
That burn worked like a charm as well....I now have beautifully working 2CM DBL.Cherry Bar reel chip with a backed-up copy!!!!
That's all I wanted to accomplish wth this and it was done with only the help of our beloved members.... thanks to all those that endorsed various suggestions and help....I am forever indebted...

****Now, back to our regular programming schedule*****

[jdkmunch]

 

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!    Enjoy!!

[uniman]

 

Fantastic!
The offset way has to be easier once you master it. The copy and paste is a bit more time consuming but easier for a beginner. IMO
Glad to hear they both worked.

[stayouttadabunker]

yes,
Typing in "0xC000" into the "Device Offset" dialog box lays down the code beginning on line "0000 C000".
Almost near the bottom of the chip.
Interesting stuff really.
You guys were right on the money about the 8 places to begin to lay out the code.
Just for kicks, I read the first ones I burned...I see what happened...
I was laying the code only on the first line ("0000") and nowhere else on the 512 chips....
The S+'s CPU was reading blanks, because I never had anything written into line "C000".
That's why I was getting the dreaded "62-1" Error Code in the "Winner Paid" window.

Another way of putting it is:

Say you're reading a book that has 8 chapters in it.
You finish chapter 6, when it's really grabbing your interest,
you turn the page to find out what happened and the page is blank!

[Op-Bell]

Great! So what we learned from this is the unused lines on the EPROM socket are tied to 1, 1, 0, selecting the C000 page on a 27C512. Well, I learned it anyway - Statfreak already worked it out. Note, though, that if one of the unused pins was unconnected on the PCB it could float either way, high or low, in which case writing to one page might work or not, but the "copy to all" would always work.

[Foster]

Congrats,

I knew you could do it.

[stayouttadabunker]

Thanks Foster,
I like learning new things...
Couldn't have done it without everyone's help...
What steered me in in the right direction was really, a phone call to Uniman.
He convinced me to try the copy/paste method.
Once I saw what that looked liked, and tried the other way (0xC00 in the "Device" window),
I began to physically see the difference as to what was being written onto the eprom.

It was really a crash course on eproms

[StatFreak]

 

I knew that Op-Bell's multiple paste would work, but I figured that it would be a good idea to know how to correctly burn a smaller file into a specific part of a larger chip using this software, since it's something that needs to be done from time to time, and since several members have bought or will be buying this burner.

Good work Bunker!

(I've been thinking: Since Barry calls you Stout, and a couple of us have been calling you Bunker (like a last name), how about Stout O'Bunker, or Stout Of'Bunker? (like Stout of Heart) We're knee-deep in Marks.

Or you could be Mark #2 (Like the Dans)

[stayouttadabunker]

haha!
Thanks Stat,

"Mark" must of been a popular name when I was born...anyways, by the time you type out "Stout O' Bunker' you might as well type out "stayouttadabunker"...It's just about as long....

My wife says you guys can call me "SOB"- which is short for "Stout O'Bunker"!

However, that's not why she thought of SOB though...

[jdkmunch]

I sure wish we had mail delivery today! With all this great info posted here  I could be backing up my ROMS too!!!  I think MCUMall ships quickly.
 :137-

[StatFreak]

haha!
Thanks Stat,

"Mark" must of been a popular name when I was born...anyways, by the time you type out "Stout O' Bunker' you might as well type out "stayouttadabunker"...It's just about as long....

My wife says you guys can call me "SOB"- which is short for "Stout O'Bunker"!

However, that's not why she thought of SOB though...

    That was the first acronym to present itself back in 2008, but I'd never have posted it.  

I wasn't suggesting that we type Stout O'Bunker in every case.   We'd use Stout sometimes, Bunker others.
Then eventually everyone would shorten it to SB. So now that all of that's out of the way, we can cut to the chase and use SB.

[stayouttadabunker]

  sb is fine with me..... oh...the things I let people talk me into

[Ron (r273)]

Blackjack, or Mark,or Mark#2,or SB,or SOB,or, Stout, or Bunker, or Stout O'Bunker,etc

Glad you got it up and working!    Just wish I had more input, but I new the other guys would come though.
It was just like Christmas when I first got mine working.

Ron

[stayouttadabunker]

No Ron,
Your input was perfect!
It brought up more questions and I thank you very much for all the help you gave me 

[StatFreak]

I've been doing a little online reading, and apparently, EPROMS are actually analog devices. When used to store digital data, the MOSFET location is determined to be a 1 if more than 1/2 charged, and a 0 if less than half, but the actual amount of the charge can be used if desired. They can be designed to store analog information, most commonly sound, by partially (dis)charging the gates based on the moment-by-moment voltage of an analog waveform. When the chip is read, the various charge states of the MOSFETs are converted back into relative voltages to reproduce the analog waveform.

I defer to Op-Bell to confirm or deny these new data, but if this is correct, then I've definitely learned something new today.

I also managed to find an entire set of course materials from a college website that wasn't protected. (Not one of the sites where I learned the info above)
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-ECSE-6290%20SDM-2/

You can go up one directory and get the exams and answers for several years as well, and there are other courses accessible taught by this instructor.

Unfortunately, part 1 of this course is taught by another professor named Shur, but the link on his page to part 1 doesn't work.

[Op-Bell]

What you're describing sounds more like dynamic RAM, which does work in a similar way by storing charge on the gate capacitance, though maybe the same principle is used with modern EPROMs where the geometry is very small (small = weak effect). The readout is done with a sort of electrical equivalent of a sensitive beam balance, where a very tiny voltage tips it one way or the other and it's the tipped balance that gets read out, not the voltage directly.

You can also use MOSFETs, as you say, as analog memories, though only for a very short time like a second or so. Commonly they're used as analog delay lines, where a variable voltage goes in one end, is stepped along from cell to cell and exits in the same form (but later) at the other end. It's also the principle of the CCD (charge coupled device) image sensors in digital cameras. Here you charge up all the MOSFET gates in the sensor, exposethe gates to light so that the charge leaks away by the photoelectric effect - more where the light is brighter, then read out all the cells and arrange the voltages as a pattern of light and dark, ie a picture.

[stayouttadabunker]

I've been doing some reading as well and I'll quote this from "How stuff works.com">>


[If the flow through the gate is greater than 50 percent of the charge, it has a value of 1. When the charge passing through drops below the 50-percent threshold, the value changes to 0. A blank EPROM has all of the gates fully open, giving each cell a value of 1. ] end quote

And this>>

[To rewrite an EPROM, you must erase it first. To erase it, you must supply a level of energy strong enough to break through the negative electrons blocking the floating gate. In a standard EPROM, this is best accomplished with UV light at a frequency of 253.7. Because this particular frequency will not penetrate most plastics or glasses, each EPROM chip has a quartz window on top of it. The EPROM must be very close to the eraser's light source, within an inch or two, to work properly.

An EPROM eraser is not selective, it will erase the entire EPROM. The EPROM must be removed from the device it is in and placed under the UV light of the EPROM eraser for several minutes. An EPROM that is left under too long can become over-erased. In such a case, the EPROM's floating gates are charged to the point that they are unable to hold the electrons at all. ] end quote

[stayouttadabunker]

To answer the question of how long the eprom should stay in the eraser?
I quote again from "How stuff works .com">>

[the best way to determine exposure time is to run an empirical exposure test. First, expose the EPROMs for 1 minute and test for erasure. If they are not erased, expose them again for another minute. Keeping track of the total exposure time, repeat this process until they are erased. Now take the total time and multiply by 1.5. For example, if it takes 3 minutes we should use a 4.5 minutes exposure time to ensure good erasure without over erasing. Remember if you leave an EPROM in the eraser too long, it can remain erased forever and will no longer program. ]

[StatFreak]

That would definitely be the safe way to do it. However, with the cheap Chinese eraser we're using, the wattage is low enough that it's not a significant risk. I know that with one or two 27C512s in the eraser it still takes at least 20 minutes to erase them. It takes longer with more chips, and even though one can fit seven of these chips into the tray, it's not a good idea because the small UV lamp in there doesn't give the greatest coverage. So erasing multiple (3-4) chips for 35+ minutes or a single chip for 25-30 minutes isn't going to damage them. Some of the more expensive erasers can erase a chip like this in just 4-6 minutes. In such cases, every minute would count.  Just my 2 cents.

[Op-Bell]

I use one of these (Walling Co, Datarase). Unfortunately they're not made any more but can be picked up on Ebay - ebay search for datarase. They hold up to 4 EPROMs and do the job in 3 minutes (yes, three). The secret's in the tube. These use a "sterilizing UV" tube with a shorter wavelength than usual.

[Op-Bell]

Y'know, I was gonna just let it go so as not to appear pedantic, but those guys at "How Stuff Works" are the living proof how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Here's an explanation from an EPROM manufacturer (Atmel):

“Basically, EPROMs are programmed through the accumulation of electrons on the floating gate of an N-Channel EPROM cell by the process of hot-electron injection. Hot-electron injection is where electrons, flowing as a current between the drain and source of a saturated EPROM cell, gain enough energy from the high electric field to jump the oxide barrier between the channel and the floating gate (see Figure 2). Before programming, the MOS threshold voltage, Vth (otherwise known as the gate threshold voltage) of the erased floating-gate EPROM cell is about 1V to 2V (see Figure 3). After programming, its threshold voltage is about 6.5V to 9V, due to the accumulated electrons on the floating gate. In read mode, the address decoding circuitry in the chip selects the desired cell by pulling the gate voltage of the cell to Vcc. Since Vcc is typically 4.5V to 5.5V, an erased cell with a Vth  = 1.5V would be turned on (Figure 3), while a programmed cell with a Vth = 7.5V would remain off (see Figure 4). This floating-gate process is how a single MOSFET-like transistor can provide for the two logic levels used in digital circuitry.â€�

The thing I mainly object to is HSW saying you can over-erase an EPROM. You cannot over-erase an EPROM. Once the charges are gone from the floating gate, you cannot remove any more charges, even if you leave it in the eraser for a year. I know where they got it from - you can over-erase a Flash ROM, because Flash is erased electrically by reversing the programming process and you must be careful not to leave the gate with a positive floating charge. But this isn't a danger with EPROMs.

[StatFreak]

I use one of these (Walling Co, Datarase). Unfortunately they're not made any more but can be picked up on Ebay - ebay search for datarase. They hold up to 4 EPROMs and do the job in 3 minutes (yes, three). The secret's in the tube. These use a "sterilizing UV" tube with a shorter wavelength than usual.

Does it matter if it's the model with the timer or not? I can't tell from the ad.