Bally 809-N mechanical problem...need help!!! :(

[profmike]

Hi all,
I posted about this machine a while back...at that time, it was a problem with the stepper/upper unit. I was able to get it up and running thanks to the answers I received here....
and unfortunately, here we go again. It's definitely a MECHANICAL problem, and it's driving me nuts. I'll try to explain without everyone getting a headache....so:
-the machine was playing/paying fine. One day, it suddenly, after pulling the handle, gave a "fast spin" (actually the reels didn't spin at all; they just moved a bit and it remained on the last reel combo). Insert coin light came back on.
-I removed the mech from the cabinet. All looked ok, so I slid it back in. It then played fine approximately five times, and then the "fast spin" thing happened again. I opened the machine, pulled out the mech halfway and reinstalled it. Same thing....five good plays then the "fast spin."
I removed it, and noticed the small spring on the trip operating lever pawl had come off, so I re-attached the spring. But, same problem. Five good spins, then zilch.
So I decided it was time to really check it out. I gave it a good cleaning/lube (didn't remove the reels; just cleaned/lubed the exterior mech parts, right and left side. That didn't do anything. Removed it again, and carefully followed the instructions for reel mech service in the Liberty Belle complete guide to Bally EMs. The measurements.... 1 11/16 on the half gear (which slides into the handle actuating arm), 1 7/8 on the stop bracket. If operated outside the cabinet, it takes a bit of force, but the mech works.
Back in the machine...now the handle locks in a down position and the reels don't spin at all.
Removed it again, tried slight in/out adjustments of the stop bracket....handle locks down without a spin. Removed it again.... driveshaft time. (and probably where I really messed it up) I tried to adjust the nuts to achieve the 1/16 play....and again, the mech works outside of the cabinet but when reinstalled and played, the handle locks in a down position and doesn't initiate a reel spin.
*Very weird (I've had this machine since the 90s and never noticed this, but on the driveshaft there are supposed to be a total of THREE nuts. I only have two. The one with the washer that comes in contact with the compression spring isn't there, but the machine always played fine without it)...* ...and there are two springs on the right side...the original compression spring and the later (I guess) spring with the felt insert.
Any ideas as to what to try next? I've been trying for days to get the adjustment right with the driveshaft and the stop bracket....and again- it works fine outside the cabinet....once in the cabinet, the handle locks down...and it takes a great deal of pressure with the handle of a ball peen hammer pushing the link assembly to get the reels to spin and unlock the handle. 
Please, someone help!!!        I'm running out of patience and aspirin! I've tried to explain it as best I could...is it just a matter of hit and miss now with the driveshaft/stop bracket adjustments until I find a 'sweet spot?" The factory measurements are pretty much useless....I can post pics or make a video if necessary....
Thanks in advance,
Mike 

[Jim]

try moving the bracket flush with the rear of the reel mech.


Jim

[profmike]

OK- thanks. Will try that when I get home later. If not, should I move it even further back so it extends past the back of the machine?

[profmike]

@Jim...bracket is now flush with rear of mech. Outside cabinet, easier to initiate reel spin. Once back in cabinet, handle still sticks in down position....

[OldReno]

On the drive shaft (I suspect you're talking about the push arm attached to your front half gear), I generally adjust it so that there are about 3 and 1/2 to 4 and 1/2 turns of thread protruding from the back of the last nut.  And then I loosen up the front nut just a little bit so that there is a bit of slop in there. Some times more thread helps, up to about 7 turns.  Hope that makes some sense.
It sounds like your throw is too long, thus locking up the handle before kick and spin.
Or is that too short?  I forget.
It's better to have it kick off too soon, and then adjust it out until it kicks longer.
Jim is correct about having the stop bracket flush with the back of the mech.  I only move that as a very last resort.
When it locks up on you, try pulling on handle while pushing on the pump arm to see if that releases it.

[profmike]

Thanks for chiming in on this...I'll answer your post from bottom to top, as that will make it easier (?) to understand:
1. Yes- pushing on the pump arm while pulling the handle does release it.
2. The bracket is flush with the back of the mech now.
3. I think the throw must be too short...on a lockup, when I push the pump arm, I see the gears move and the handle pulls down just a bit more.

Now- as far as adjusting the driveshaft (and yes, I mean the push arm- I was using terminology straight out of the Bally service manual to avoid confusion), I think that's where I really messed up the works. When the outermost nut is tightened, it does lower the handle catch in the gear, but the reels start to make a creaky noise the tighter the nut is...as I loosen it up, the  handle catch on the gear rises a bit, and there is less gear movement and a shorter push required on the pump arm to get it to release. BUT...either way, tight or loose, the machine locks up without initiating a reel spin. I guess somewhere there must be a sweet spot that I haven't been able to find since I started trying to adjust it.

And here's something very strange: (I would post the pics/diagram from the Bally service guide or Liberty Belle guide but I don't want to upload a copyrighted image)....in ALL the books, diagrams as well as photographs, there are THREE nuts total on the driveshaft (push arm). I only have two (on this machine and my 873) nuts...one at the end of the spring, and the outermost nut. But both machines were purchased like that and they've always worked mechanically well. No middle nut. Maybe this is common (?) Either way, I'm thinking it's something in that adjustment; and because there is no middle nut, I adjust the outer one while using needle nose vice grips so the driveshaft doesn't rotate.
ALSO...I read somewhere on the...eek...internet that a last-chance "fix" is to take out the reel assembly, take the e-clip off the half-gear, and turn the gear up a notch or two. Ever hear of that one??? 

Thanks again,
Mike

[OldReno]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for prompting me to look at the parts manual.  Yes, it is a drive shaft and it's good that I learn to use the right name.
I see, as you point out, that the parts diagram shows 2 inner nuts on the drive shaft.  That's really odd, because I don't recall ever seeing two inner nuts there.  I've only seen one inner nut and one outer one, so that's pretty strange.
I've never been able to adjust the kick by using the specs, I do it by feel and by guess, and a lot of dumb luck.  Looking at my 742A here, I note that the outer nut is adjusted all the way out, with no threads showing. There is actually quite a bit of slop and play because it has not been snugged up.  Hower it kicks and spins fine, so I'm not going to mess with it. 
I would suggest that you find a position on the drive shaft that you are comfortable with, that doesn't make the mech creak, and then do some tweaking on your L stop bracket (I mean your trip lever stop bracket).

In my last post I said to adjust that as a last resort, but I was in error.  I don't know why I said that... It was a BS statement on my part and I apologize. It was designed to be adjustable and I mis-spoke and showed my true ignorance.  Maybe too much wine.

Try nudging it to the back a little bit at a time to see if you find a spot where it will kick off the reels.  You may find that it will kick the reels but that they index before a full spin.  In that case, try adjusting your drive shaft again.
(As a last resort, you might want to put a spacer of some kind in between the inner nut and where the parts diagram shows the second innner nut. A slightly larger nut of approximate same size might just do it, but again, that's odd.  One nut by itself should be able to adjust it just fine.)
By the way, never remove the inner nut from the drive shaft assembly, because that spring is put on there with a great deal of tension, and could be dangerous when released. (or so I hear, never have done it myself)
And finally, I haven't heard about moving the half gear a notch.  That's an interesting concept.
I hope you don't get frustrated with it.  Take a break when it gets trying, and pop a beer and let it settle down.
Wish I could give a definitive answer, but there has to be a sweet spot there somewhere.  By all rights, moving the inner nut towards the back should give you kick, but if it makes the machine creak, that indicates some tightness somewhere that may eventually lead to excess wear down the road.
Please keep us posted on how it goes, I'm sure we can all learn something from your trials.

***Oh, and be sure to not snug the nuts too tightly together. That might cause some of that creaking...  Leave a little bit of slop in there. Give them room to breathe. I usually back the outer nut off half a turn.***

My, I do go on, don't I? Must be compensating for a lack of social life.

[profmike]

Thanks once again for trying to help. And no worries about the "BS statement"....I can feel the Bugs Bunny "I just typed something dumb" donkey ears growing out of my head every time I type a post here! As far as the trip lever stop bracket, I think that flush with the back of the mech is the proper place for it...if I move it in or out further, it gets very difficult to use the "pump arm" (your terminology works fine for me by the way) to cycle the machine. So it has to be something with finding the right adjustment on the driveshaft. Sooner or later, I'll find it, but as I'm sure you know, constantly removing the mech, adjusting the nut and trying and then repeating the process is really frustrating. I'm down to three times per day now until I let it go, but as soon as I get upstairs, I get that "if I turn the nut just ONE more time" feeling...
I've been through many a beer and many busted knuckle with this thing. When the problem first started, the "slide the mech halfway out and slap it back in with a bit of force" fix worked...for a few spins...and at least back then, the handle returned to its normal position. It wasn't until I tried making adjustments that the handle getting stuck in the down position became a problem.
I've had this machine for quite some time...and until now, all the problems have been with the electric side: runaway pays, bad coils, you name it. I'm finally done (?) with those, and now this mechanical weirdness.  I'm tempted to try the "move the half gear" fix, but I think that's just going to cause additional headaches.

And yes....now that you've looked at the Bally guide, that missing second nut is very strange. I've never seen an EM with all three nuts either. But in any case, the factory specs are useless...and the Liberty Belle guide doesn't really help my problem either.

I was thinking of swapping my mech with the one from my 873 (donkey ears growing as I type this) just to see what would happen, but I'm not going to, as I'm pretty sure it will blow a fuse, or worse.

I'll keep trying and post any subsequent updates. Cross your fingers!
Mike

[profmike]

My, I do go on, don't I? Must be compensating for a lack of social life.

PS- ha! Who needs a social life when we have these marvelous creations to drive us batty????? 

[OldReno]

Yes, try swapping out your reel mechs to isolate it. Test both mechs in both machines.  Just pull the 120V fuse (or unplug the machine), and then pull handle by pulling the handle lock pawl forward to get free play. (make sure the beau plugs have same # of pins on your reels).
Having units to swap out makes the job soooo much easier.
May I presume you're using an open end half inch wrench to adjust, and not needle nose vicegrips? Just checking, because doing it with VG's would drive me nuts, if you don't mind the pun.
Yeah, you're right, who needs a social life...?

[profmike]

Yes, try swapping out your reel mechs to isolate it. Test both mechs in both machines.  Just pull the 120V fuse (or unplug the machine), and then pull handle by pulling the handle lock pawl forward to get free play. (make sure the beau plugs have same # of pins on your reels).
Having units to swap out makes the job soooo much easier.
May I presume you're using an open end half inch wrench to adjust, and not needle nose vicegrips? Just checking, because doing it with VG's would drive me nuts, if you don't mind the pun.

Wellll....no luck (unless bad luck counts). I wasn't able to swap the mechs...beau plug issue. And I'm using a nut driver; the vice grips are merely to keep the driveshaft from turning. I can't use a 1/2" wrench, because whoever had the machine before me did a pretty good job of stripping the nut (THEY probably used vice grips or channellocks to turn it). The nut driver works well. BUT...
I tried to match the # of threads showing on both machines, and the trip stop is exactly at the outer edge of the 873. That made it much worse! Earlier, I had the 809 to a point where it looked like it was about to kick (slight reel movement before the handle locked up)...now, no matter what I try, the handle locks down and there's a LOT of travel when I manually cycle the mech. UGH!!! That sweet spot is there somewhere...
...and when I re-inserted the mech into the 873 and powered up, it has now decided to pay out three coins on a line 4 cherry, but I'll deal with that after I get the 809 working...it might be the next century.

[OldReno]

Hi profmike,
One thing to realize, is that the 'end' nut is inconsequential to your adjustment.  It is only there to 'snug up' the final positioning.  You don't have to chase it on the shaft, deal only with your inner nut. Screw that outer one all the way out and forget about it until you're done.
Check your handle to see that it is not the problem.  Will it fully pull and release with the reels out? Does it pull all the way down?
You may have something fallen which is binding it.
Read my 3 posts on checking your new machine to see how to pull handle with mech out, and to release it.
If you already know that, my apologies.
You can, if you have the energy, release the screws from your reel mech Beau plug mounts to allow you to physically put the reels in your other machine.  Or at least I'm pretty confident you can....?  as a last resort.
Check your two kicking half-gears to ensure that the front one has its tooth down first.
Does the reel mech slide cleanly into place, or does it fight against the handle fork which activates it?
I know you're gonna nail this thing....!

[profmike]

...and the donkey ears are growing again! I REALLY should have posted before I started fiddling around (yes, I'm keeping it clean; that's not what I'm thinking) with this machine! Iwas going by the Bally book and trying to get that 1/16"-ish play between the two outer nuts; kind of a moot point since nut # 2 seems to have become a bit of a mystery during this thread. The nut that's up against the drive spring I haven't moved AT ALL!  But anyway:
The handle works great without the mech...it pulls all the way down, and the fork is almost completely vertical. It pops up nicely once released. (I had initially blamed this problem on the handle release coil...it's weak, but not dead yet)...
BUT with the mech in the cabinet, when the handle gets stuck down, the fork isn't vertical...there are two or three more gear notches that have to go before the reels will spin. And yes, the front half gear is a tooth below the rear one.
The mech used to slide in and out perfectly...now it's hitting the handle fork slightly when installed. And that's only since i've been "servicing" the machine...but the driveshaft adjustment is supposed to raise and lower the inner half gear that operates off the fork, so I'm not going to blame the handle just yet.
l read your posts as you suggest...maybe I'm missing something. Thanks for the vote of confidence...I'd love to be able to post stating that I've nailed the problem...but I'm not there yet. (this is giving me a good chance to get absolutely nothing else done though)..
Mike

[OldReno]

profmike
Well, this is all making me crazy, too.  I pulled my reel mech out, and here's what I see:

To the right of the drive shaft spring I have one nut (no washer there, but it works ok).  Then there is the through-hole on the swivel of the trip operating lever assembly (which the shaft fits through).  And then there is one end nut. Two nuts total, one on either side of the trip assembly.

If I move the end nut all the way to the end of the shaft, then that allows me to easily move the inner nut in and out on the shaft.
By moving this inner nut, that should change the operating length of the drive shaft, and at the same time raise or lower the back half gear roller which fits into the handle fork.
Not to be crude, but how many nuts are you working with on your shaft?
I haven't had to adjust a drive shaft for some long time, but what I remember is -- if you screw the nuts toward the end (back) of the shaft, the mech will kick off sooner.  If you screw them toward the front of the mech, they will kick off later. (assuming your L stop bracket is adjusted correctly)
If you have any way to upload a pic of the unit that might be of help.  Otherwise, we'll keep using words to try to resolve this, and that's fine, too, but subject to misinterpretation and occasional misunderstanding.
I still hold that the end nut is merely there to keep the shaft in the trip lever, and for aesthetics, and to confuse us humans, and that the inner nut is the prime mover.
Of course I could be blowing smoke, but don't think so.
Anyway, please don't go beyond your frustration level, and do pop a beer once in awhile to give new perspective.
Always seems to help me....

One last thing -- I notice from rereading some of the earlier posts, is your trip operating lever pawl (the one the spring came off) operating correctly? If it is engaging right, then you should feel pressure when you pull the handle, and the mech starts to kick.  If it is not engaging, then you will notice a very weak handle pull, with no movement in the reels.  (and it will always lock up the handle...) To check this pull your reel mech, remove the reels, put back the mech, and then you can look inside the mech while you pull the handle.  You should see the reel wipers fall back, and your links start to work.  This might be your problem.  If the wipers don't fall back, then assume your pawl is not engaging the drive.  I'm just trying to go through as many possibilities as I can, and this certainly could be one.

[OldReno]

Sorry, I see from your previous posts you have only 2 nuts on the shaft.  Please ignore most of last post....

[profmike]

Well, the machine may not work right as of yet, but your posts in this thread are keeping me from throwing the machine out the window (which wouldn't help, as it's in my basement)...and the between-tries beers help as well. And a man after my own heart too...you write the great American novel and then tell me to disregard most of it....that's something I would do! :-)
So...rather than a long reply, I figured I'd snap a few pics of the mech...but of course the batteries are dead in my digital camera, so I'll have to take them tomorrow and upload them.
I'll tell you one thing though...I never should have touched the @#$%& driveshaft...my gut is telling me that it does have something to do with the trip pawl; after adjusting it flush with the back of the mech, I noticed that there were "washer scars" visible. Appears that it was probably adjusted inward a bit before I touched it...but that's a moot point. I should never have touched the driveshaft without first making sure the trip bracket was correctly positioned. I'll stop here for now...pics to come soon. (I'd attempt to take pics with my phone, but they'd come out crappy and just lead to more confusion.
Thanks again for helping with this! Hopefully the pics will tell a thousand words...we'll see....
Mike

[OldReno]

Glad you're keeping your sense of humor, me I've pulled out all the rest of my hair.
Regarding my last paragraph, that little trip pawl with the spring, (not the tip lever stop bracket, the 'L' bracket...but the little flippy-lever...) does it engage the mech trip lever when you pull handle?  In other words, do you see stuff moving inside the reel mech, or does the handle just pull down, only moving the half gears, pump, and stuff on the right side of the mech?
If that's not engaging, that may be the source of all the problems.  If your reel wipers and other stuff move back when you pull, then we can assume it's working ok.  Just want to make sure we eliminate that as a prob. Forgive me if am redundant.
I'm gonna pop a cold one....
Hang in there.

[profmike]

Yep...as far as I can tell, the inner guts (wiper arms etc) are functioning properly. No worries in the hair department...whatever hasn't fallen out already is being helped my my 809. If they do a remake of Rocky Horror, I'd be a perfect Riff Raff! I'll take pics tomorrow; may even attempt a video...
and yes, I need to keep my sense of humor...without that, I'd be be totally screwed!

[OldReno]

OK then, for kicks and giggles, -- only if you get bored --, try loosening out that inner nut (next to the compression spring) about a full turn.
Maybe even a full turn and a half or more. That should be counter-clockwise.  You can always retiten it later....

I'll sign off until you upload pics, don't want to cause unnecessary aggravation.

[profmike]

Ok...I'll try that. Guess it couldn't hurt...

[profmike]

Ok...I'll try that. Guess it couldn't hurt...

Well, it didn't help. After adjusting the compression spring nut as you suggested, I re-inserted the mech into the machine, and now- same problem but the reels don't budge at all when the handle is pulled...forgot to buy batteries over the weekend...took pics; trying to upload them...

[profmike]

..maybe a picture is worth a thousand words?????

[profmike]

the gears....

[OldReno]

Profmike, your last pic shows the half gears are wrong.
The gear on the left (as shown in pic) must have its tooth down first.
Change that and then you'll have much less problems.
A picture is easily worth 1,000 words.

[profmike]

Hi again OldReno,
I was thinking the same thing when I took that pic. Weird...last time I looked, the gears were correct. Will adjust and see what happens. The inner (right) gear seems to be kind of loose...in other words, I can move it back and forth; there's a lot of play. Maybe the torsion spring is on its way out? Doesn't appear that there are any broken teeth on the gears...
Not much time left for tinkering, frustration and sympathy beers...my semester starts tomorrow and it's back to real "prof mike" mode with a hundred and twenty dumb students...(though I'm feeling pretty dumb myself right about now)...
Update soon.....
Mike