BALLY 'SIR PRIZE' SURPRISE!

[daisyjuke]

HI All,
       Having taken delivery of my first EM slot, I find that the door is probably a replacement and the actual machine is not a bally 'sir prize' (picture in previous thread). There is a number written on the hopper assembly which is 783A-1 and also a pat pending sticker.

       The reels have the the usual cherry, bar, £, plum etc. but one symbol is of a blone girls head...no knights in armour here!

Good news that the mechanically the machine runs, albeit that the reels are slow, they spin freely by hand but do not seem to get enough 'kick' from the mech when pulling the handle. Also the payout is working and seems correct. It is running on british new 1p coins so no fortunes to be made here!

Other Things that need looking at are:
the handle does not lock when no credit, works pays out without inserting a coin.
hold/draw feature not working at all
4 disconnected wires on the right of the reel assembly

I am new to slots so any help apprieciated. I will be using old renos guide to start overhauling the mech in the next few days and hopefully get some answers about the machine.

more pics to follow,
Nick
       

[daisyjuke]

Questions.......

What are the cut wires?

Who is the mystery girl?

Electronics are not functioning other than some payout, lights and the coin switch. Mech has hold and draw but is dead. Fuses and coils read good and a visual shows good connections throughout except the four wires in the pic.

Any help really apprieciated!

[daisyjuke]

lastly.......until the next time.....what does this do?

[OldReno]

Nice machine.
the wires I suspect went to your mechanical meters, the coin in and coin out meters. which were in the square hole just below your first reel.
I'm rusty on hold and draw, but I think it works after you play one game, then on the next game only you have the option to hold the reels.
No idea what that last photo is.
Will get back to you later, got stuff to do this afternoon.
Give it all a look-see, and check out all of your switches, to make sure they open and close when they should.
After your machine is plugged in for awhile, and the grease starts to soften, then your reels might kick and spin better. They don't work great when they're cold.
Sounds like a fun project!!!

[daisyjuke]

Hi and Thanks,
                    I need to locate the 'draw relay' and switch. Any ideas? My manual has a circuit diagram but no schematic.
 I did have some sucess today. After an initial mech overhaul the reels are running good, also the clock is smother and more quiet. The arm now locks with no credit established. It was just a gummed up lock pawl assy.
    The motor pictured sits where the jackpot bell would usually go, top right cab. It drives two discs which in turn operate two micro switches. It operates when the extreme righthand switch on C stack is closed.
  The 'reel' girl with the white lipstick and eyeshadow is still a mystery!

[OldReno]

If you can, post a picture of the lower back left corner of the left side of your reel mech.  I can see that there is a trip relay there with horizontal switches that is odd looking.  That's where your coin relay normally is, but most of the ones I've seen have vertical switches.  It's possible that might be your hold controller, but I can't tell unless I can see a little closer shot of that assembly.
But then, it might be that little motor assembly that does it, too.  I'm suspecting the latter.  Try to trace where the wires from your hold solenoids go to, that should point you to the right place.
Good job, glad it's coming together.
Hoping someone who's worked on hold and draws will chime in.

[daisyjuke]

I will chase out the hold circuit tomorrow. Great machines to work on....other than access to the relays etc. I'm used to repairing jukes and pins where components are easy to get at live. I'll try to trigger a HOLD, make sure there ir power to the circuit. Thanks again and I'll get a better pic of the switch stacks.
Just a note, the machine is playing as single coin so only 1 play can be established. wonder if this prevents the HOLD/Draw operating? the machine has obviously been converted at some point.

Thanks again,

[OldReno]

I think it is supposed to be a single coin game.  The hold feature only comes in to play when you decide to play another game, and want to hold some of the symbols from the last game.  After 2nd game, then it starts over, and you cannot hold the reels another time.
In other words, if you like the symbols, you can hold them only one time for the next game only.
And, I'm guessing if the first game is a win, that you may not be able to hold at all.  But I don't know for sure.
If you could hold them indefinitely, then you could drain the hopper pretty easily if you kept holding 7's until they all came up.
Glad to know you're familiar with jukes and pins.  Good stuff to know, wish I did....

[daisyjuke]

yes, Im now certain it is a single coin game, makes sense.

a little more progress of sorts today. i located the hold/draw relay (rear right of reel mech.) and checked the hard to get at jones sockets in the back of the cab....3 wires off! i re soldered the broken wires and this happened:

the mystery motor now runs when the arm is pulled (must act as as stepper for the hold/draw)
hold works  incorrectly on the right hand reel. (must be wrong pin...permanent live.....but at least established that the hold draw circuit functions)
one broken wire (black/white) comes from the 1st/2nd game lights. it must go to the smaller, left hand jones socket as it is not long enough to reach the other. no idea where

at this point it would be really useful to have a pin diagram for the jones plugs. i will start drawing my own tomorrow if i can't find one online.

[OldReno]

Nice job, good diagnostic and troubleshooting skills!
You're certainly not at all intimated by it, are you?
Is that hold relay a latching relay? One coil to latch, and one to de-latch?
I'd love to see schematics on the thing, too.
No idea about the black/white wire, wonder if it's 6V?

Won't be at all Sir Prized when you get it running...!

[slotsteve]

uk had a  law at onetime where you could get over i think 10 times your betin arcades, in mid to late 70,s we bought cont loads of games that were changed to give 2 spins and pay under 10 coins, those guys over there should have never done any work to those games they were butchers imo, there was so many add ons and new wires that won,t be on a bally wiring diagram ,in mid 70,s we piad under 75 usd for those gems, under 50 for mills jenning,

[daisyjuke]

hi guys,
         Steve, you are correct. The max no. of coins paid out on 1 play is 10. in this case 1p's. i understand it originally worked on old sixpences (2.5p but really 5p pre decimalisation 1971....complicated!) so quite big money machines for the UK at that time.
         The 1970 UK gaming act banned 'jackpots' and for some reason all 'hold/draw' machines were deemed illegal, i assume because you could exceed the maximum allowed payout....not certain?
          Anyways, all hold/draw machines were recalled and either scapped or converted to limit the payout, i don't fully understand the complexities of this but i think the mystery motor (a payout timer perhaps?) and the 1p conversion has something to do with this.
          I paid £65 GBP for this machine....complete with broken reel glass....damn! probably too much but it's proving much more fun (at least for me) than a working/restored machine.

Thanks for your help so far guys, pics of that relay to come.

[daisyjuke]

OK, here's a couple of pics showing the draw relay and a summary of todays exploits.

Chasing the circuit through to the jones plugs was a big headache after a while, a cold beer did little to help, i couldn't think straight agter a while. problem was, 3 wires off and 5 potential points on the jones plug, possibly more if any were doubled up.

Best result ended up with a working bandit! well......kind of.....this is how it is

All holds now work.....but you can always hold....even after a win..or without a credit
i had to put a jumper to ground on the left hand hold switch for it to operate
right hand hold lamp not operating
cancel now operates

[OldReno]

That's odd about the jumper to ground, because the machines are supposed to be isolated from case.  But was probably a rework of some kind and they used case as a circuit. Hmmm.
So then if you're playing, and get a 7 on first reel (or high pay of any kind), then you can keep holding it???
Seems like that would knock the crap out of the percentages.
Glad you got it going, and yeah, I know about chasing wires through the jones plugs, I'm in the middle of that now.

[daisyjuke]

Hi, I have just noticed the draw coil is not functioning, despite the hold kind of working. i'm certain i havn't put the broken wires back right. only 3 wires but i reckon 15 possible combinations. somehow ive managed to bypass the draw relay which i am sure is the key to getting this fixed. Also, it's really difficult working on the jones plug in the back of the cab. Are there any schematics available for these machines? my manual only has diagrams not showing secondaries or lamps.

Thanks

Just to add, there is a schematic for an 802 on ebay. will this be close enough?

[OldReno]

well, lost my post somehow.  How do the wires match up on the Male side of the plug?  Any luck with wire colors being the same?
Not to show my ignorance, but what does the draw coil do?
I know what the Hold does, but not familiar with a Draw function....
Maybe that's what allows you to hold on the second spin?  Perhaps it's supposed to drop out after 2nd spin???
That would solve why you can hold indefinitely.

[daisyjuke]

To quote from the bally manual 'the draw relay is the controlling factor in the hold and draw system'  big clue there! wire colours, i managed to match 1 to get the cancel switch working. 2 of the wires are similar but are faded, and my colour vision is not too good. i will get another set of eyes to check. even with all connected in the cab it would leave 2 pins blank, and they are definately hooked up on the reel mech side. most of the solder work looks original so i dont think the butcher has been at it. maybe there is still a broken wire or two lurking in the back somewhere. from experience with jukes, this is going to be an easy, 'kick yourself' fix when i find it! could be time to pull the mechs out of the cab and set up on the bench.

really appreciate all the help, many thanks

[slotsteve]

could be wrong mech for cabinet

[daisyjuke]

could be wrong mech for cabinet

possible....but i dont think so. the person i got it off remembers playing it in the arcade he bought it from 25 years ago.
I am thinking the most likely is that i have disturbed or shorted a pin while trying to solder in the back of the cab

[daisyjuke]

OK guys, it was high noon and time to get the big guns out............ and the jones plug bracket so i could get to those pesky wires!

I now have all pins and wires accounted for and findings are very old mod/repair? 1970 UK gaming act perhaps.

inspection of the loom shows the black/white wire had been snipped, found the other end and should just join. +50v supply to the door.

Heres the interesting one which accounts for 2 missing wires and 2 spare pins on the jones...colours match pins match those on the reel mech jones...yipppeeeee!

deep in the loom, two wires from the jones have been have been removed and joined. effectively, the CANCEL button has been connected to the motor terminal which should go to the DRAW relay switch....game rigged to hold a win line?  I love this stuff!

There is a hold switch wire tacked on to what should be a vacant (round) pin on the jones. should go the corresponding pin on the reel mech and is happily vacant on the cab plug....STRANGE

2 other wires i simply have on the wrong pins and need to swap..my mistake working upside down 

Now if the colour theory is correct, and no reason it shouldnt be, then i might have a working bandit ,possibly a pre modified hold and draw? wont get too excited and definately not out of the woods yet. sadly, real work (as opposed to REEL work)  has to take over before i have time to check this out.

bye for now and thank guys

[daisyjuke]

OK, Having matched the wiring in the beau plugs like for like I find the machine functions correctly (payout, credit) except the all important HOLD feature. I can manually depress the draw solonoid to activate the hold feature when a credit is established.

I had one wire left over (green/white) which connects to that mystery motor. Here is a picture of the cams on the other side of the motor. As you can see by the notch, the microswitch is mostly always activated by the cam. these cams are adjustable to activate the switches at different times but i have left as found. while the inner microswitch is 'on' it delivers 6v to that green/white wire. This cam rotates throughout the play cycle

The 'draw' switch is operating it engages when the arm is pulled, releases, engages mid way through play cycle, releases just before play cycle ends. It is always the same cycle on every pull.

Any ideas and thoughts would be very welcome.

Just to add, the motor and cam is made in England, so almost certainly an add on after export. it does, however, seem as it was designed to be there and not a custom job as such. too neatly connected via the plug with no sign of resoldering.

[OldReno]

Maybe that green/white is for a feature light on the door that tells you you can hold?
It's a mystery to me, because I still don't understand what the draw function is supposed to do.
Anyway, sounds like you're getting real close to having it licked.  Nice.

[daisyjuke]

I have it just about licked!...almost.
 I managed to get my hands on a 'quick draw' 802 schematic which pointed me in the right direction. The 'P/O closed at zero' was not closing, just needed a good clean and reminded me to do a continuity check on all switches as well as a visual check

'Hold' is now working as it should, at least as far as i can make out. There a still an issue with the '2nd Game' feature but there is no info on what this does or how it works (if at all). i dont think it was an original 'sir prize' feature and the reel glass in my machine is a replacement.

As for the mystery motor, possibly a payout time limit for security?

[OldReno]

Nice work.  Now you have to trace back those switch wires from the mystery motor, and that should give us an idea of what they do. Does your machine have a safety timer motor?
I think E/M's are basically an adult jigsaw puzzle.

[daisyjuke]

I think E/M's are basically an adult jigsaw puzzle.

I think you are absolutley correct, OldReno! have to say I have really enjoyed this puzzle and might even take on another!

My machine does not have a safety timer motor, at least not one as we know it

Thanks to you and others for lots of help guys.