Bally 831, won't work, accepts coins, but won't register and allow to play?

[BR549 Auto Sales]

I just started working on this one, all the lights light up and when you insert quarters sometimes they register on the award glass for 1st coin, 2nd coin, 3rd coin and they drop to the hopper but the pull handle does not release so that you can spin the reels. When I manually release the latch for the pull handle, the reels spin, but it's like they are not getting a full force spin, they spin really slow. The small clock mech on the left side of the machine spins nice and easy and the reels do lock into place one by one but that's it. After that I can drop coins again but the same results they go to the hopper but won't release the handle to spin the reels. The man I got it from said that it worked fine until he was sliding the hopper back in one day and he said he saw an arc or a spark towards the rear of the hopper and it did not work after that. I checked all 3 fuses and fuse holders and they are all good. Are there any voltages I can measure and what should they read or do I just need to clean the leaf switch contacts and make sure they are gapped correctly, the same way I would do with an EM pinball machine?

I will include pictures.

Thanks

[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[OldReno]

Great photos.
First make sure the machine is fully warmed up.  If it's cold, the grease is sluggish and it won't spin right.
Next, get a pinpoint oiler, pop out the reels, and do a quicky lube on all bearings.  Smoosh that oil around and work all the linkages.
Since you're hep to EM pins, you should have no problem with the electrical end of it.
If the machine lights up at all, you got 120V
If you hear any coils work, you got 50V.  50V coils have a solid orange wire.  120V coils should have solid black or solid white wire.  There are only a couple of 120V coils, mostly they are 50V.
If your line lights or insert coin or coin accept light come on, you got 6V.
Voltage measurements are between the solid yellow and solid orange wires 50V, and the solid yellow and solid blue wire 6V coming off your transformer.  You can also pick up these same wires on the door, and check them there.
Take a few minutes and check all your switches, to make sure they all open and close when they should.
The sequence is:  push down on coin in switch, and the green coil (coin relay coil) in pic 3978 should fire, and unlatch those (coin relay) switches.
The coin accepted light should come on.
When you release the coin in switch, you should hear the handle drop.
If that doesn't work, pull out the reel mech, and manually release the green coil armature, then push back in and try coining it again.
Sometimes, if it don't work, you can pull on the pump arm (pic 3979) as you do this to verify that your dashpot switch is working (at right end of pump cylinder)
Great pics, looks like a nice clean machine.

[BR549 Auto Sales]

Thanks Reno for the information, I must have proper voltages because I am getting gen. illumination, relay pulls in when I actuate the coin switch and I hear the coil click on the rear of the reel mech and the 1st coin light will come on as will the winner paid light if I tip the switch on the hopper. When I actuate the coin switch and release it, the handle does not drop in the ready to pull state, just stays locked. The bottom whit light on the top candle is flashing, so that may mean something?

Thanks,

David

[BR549 Auto Sales]

Update, I took out the reels like you said and lubed the bearings and shafts and now the spin and lock up from left to right great. Now when I actuate the coin switch the coin accepted light comes on and 1st coin light lights up and I hear the relay behind the reels click. When I actuate the coin switch for the 2nd and 3rd coin, the relay clicks behind the reels but the pull arm relay does not actuate to release it from the locked state. If after dropping the 1st coin, I nudge the hopper to the left or the right, the relay for the pull arm actuates and releases the arm so it will pull, spin the reels and stop from left to right as it should, but I have to repeat this same process again by nudging the hopper left or right to go into ready to play mode. I pulled the hopper out and the male and the female ends of the plugs look fine, no corrosion or discolorization, is it possible that there could be a bad solder joint associated with the male or female end of that plug? Remember the man I got it from said that he saw a spark or an arcing when he was pushing the hopper back in, so possibly some wires may be shorting out back there? And on another note, when I went through the process of nudging the hopper so that it would release the pull handle so I could play a game, when the reels did stop on a winning combination there was no payout, bell ringing or coins dropping from the hopper. Anyhow I'm a lot further along than I was thanks to your help.

[BR549 Auto Sales]

One other question, what does the device/part supposed to do in the left rear of the bottom of the machine in pic # 3972?

[OldReno]

Great work so far, you're on it.
The little guy in the back in pic 3972 is your safety timer motor.  When a pay starts, that motor starts and moves the little dial pointer.  If the end of that pointer gets to the 'kill' switch (just behind the white button) then that shuts down the machine in case of a runaway hopper.  When it does time out, just push that white button (or the metal angle piece) to reset the machine and continue the pay.  Be careful, there's 120V lurking around back there.  It's also an on/off switch for the machine, but I have been shocked sometimes when pushing the off button and my fat fingers short across one of the posts.
AFA the handle release, once the coin relay assembly trips, there is a Norm Open switch on it, which is supposed to close and give you handle release after the coin falls off your coin switch (upstroke).  Work that coin relay coil and relay (latch and unlatch it) and watch your switches to make sure they make and break.
Also, after 1st coin in, reach back and release the handle paddle (push on coil armature), and then see if it counts up coins in like it should.
Good work, glad you're making progress!
Also, for your no pays, when on a pay, wiggle the reels a little bit to see if a pay starts. Pull down slightly on each one.
You might want to read the 5 part piece on how to fix/check your new machine, but probably you know most of that already.
Also, when you talk about a coil, or switch, be sure to indicate which one...either by name or firm location.
Also, remove the top glass and send some pics of the top unit.
You can remove the 4 screws holding your light panel on the top unit, and drop it down so you can watch what goes on up there when you coin the machine.
You can also push the the coil armatures to see how they interact with the machine.  Note, make sure you have one hand in your pocket, not resting on the machine case or door.
You can also remove the 4 screws holding the hopper plug to case, and pull it out slightly so you can inspect the wiring.
Take your time and go through all switches for open and close.

[Jim]

David,

the picture in reply #3 shows the payout coil and switches (back of the hopper, big wattage resistor on it)  the first set of contacts on the right, check the normally closed set, this set of contacts are in the circuit that will release the handle.

I think your machine is a 1088( writing on the wiper fingers board)     opposed to a 831  is a three line machine,  your is a three coin multiplier.  up top behind the glass you will find the feature unit for the machine.  it is here that the additional coins will count up and advance the second and third coin.  usually there is a counter unit similar to the one on the hopper, you can advance it and reset it using you fingers. this wiper board gets dirty, clean the brass points (I'll bet they are black) and lube this as well. a little WD40 on your finger will do the trick.  you will see the difference.

Hope this helps

Jim

[BR549 Auto Sales]

Great news, almost working 100% I took off the top award glass to get to the other mechs. in the top box and cleaned the wiper board and fingers, cleaning and adjusting the gaps on the leaf switches. Also took the hopper out, cleaned and  adjusted the gaps on the leaf switches. Now I can drop the first coin and the pull handle latch releases, then it accepts the 2nd and 3rd coin and it displays so on the award glass showing 1st, 2nd and 3rd coin lit up. I can pull the handle and reels spin and stop as they should but when the reels land on a winning combination, still the "winner paid" light does not come on nor does it drop any coins on a win (I tried to move the reels up and down after a winning combo and still nothing) So basically the machine works great now, just will not pay out. Do the EM pinball type reels in the top box have something to do with it not paying out?

Thanks,

David

[Jim]

this one is not so easy to explain,  basically, when you get a win combo, the wiper fingers align and put  the gray wire through the three reel discs, that gray wire is fed to the hopper payout wiper disc that corresponds to what win you got, say for example one cherry with one coin inserted.that would energize the 2 pay foil on the wiperpayout disc, that signal is coupled through the field wire
also gray to the payout coil on the back of the hopper. the coil when energized turns on the coin kicker coil, the hopper motor, the coins are picked up by the rotation of the pin wheel and onto the knife and then the coin hits the roller which is mechanically connected to the three switches on the hopper, these switches send their signal up to feature unit and are directed to none or one of the drums depending on how many coins were played. in our example, one coin, so none of the drums are in play, the signal is sent back down to the hopper where the payout count up coil is located. each time the three coin switches is pulsed the counter counts up one notch for each coin, in our example ,one coin  two pay, cherry, on the second pulse the countup wiper fingers fall off the circular foil run,thus removing the ground from the payout coil, which stops the wheel and anymore coins from being dispensed. the drums act as a multiplier circuit, for the second coin in, the three switch pulse is now directed to the drum for x2  which will not output a pulse until 2x the amount in will put only one pulse out, thus two coins have been paid out but the counter has only gone up one space. so when four coins have been paid out the counter now has reached the end of the foil run, and it stops all the action as when one coin was played.thats how the multiplication takes place. I don't like the looks of your zero stop switch, Haven't had much experience with that type. you should be able to use you finger and push the plunger to get the counter to count up, on the very first count that switch has to close, and remain closed for the remainder of the count. you can reset the counter in the same manner, its this coil (behind the disc) that also controls the winner paid lamp.

Hope this helps

Jim

[BR549 Auto Sales]

Does this part of the machine (see pic) have anything to do with it recognizing a winning combination and paying out? If it matters, it is dialed all the way to the right.

[BR549 Auto Sales]

Jim, you lost me with all of that info, must be over my head or something. Here are some pics of the inside of the top box.

[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[OldReno]

Jim gave a pretty good description of the X-units or multipliers and how they work.  When you finally get it paying, then you'll be able to follow his comments and it will all make sense.  Until then the job is to get it to pay.  Your reel wipers may be out of index, or one of the fingers on them may be lifted and not contacting the reel board.  Check this link for a quikie on how to check them --  http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=19336.0

It also may be that the fingers on the hopper board are not contacting well.  Especially the innermost finger or the feed finger (marked F on the payboard). Or, the payboard fingers may have reset too far back and are not making contact with the pay tabs.  Here's another link on a little bit of the hopper parts.
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=19448.0
You might try, while on a pay, pulling out the hopper and stepping the step up solenoid one step and then gently pushing it back in.  This will ensure that you are on a hot tab, and if it suddenly decides to pay, then you will need to adjust your zero stop switch (the round rubber bumper).  To do that, loosen the bolt, and rotate the oval rubber ring.  It is an eccentric ring, and allows you to either lower or raise the zero stop tab (which also opens and closes the zero switch on the hopper)  Once you have it in place you must put your thumbnail FIRMLY against the rubber bumper (to keep it from moving) while you tighten the bolt.  If you don't put your thumbnail there, it will turn out of place when you tighten the bolt.  Trust me on this.
The zero stop assembly is not only important because it controls the zero switch (tells the hopper to reset after pays), but more importantly it tells the spiral cam assembly and its wiper fingers how far to reset.  If the spiral cam goes back too far, you will be off your pay tabs, and the machine will not be able to pay on the lower pays (have you set up a jackpot pay yet to see if it pays?). If the cam is set too far forward, all your pays will be short by one coin.

You should be able to work on getting it to pay with only 1 coin in.  No need to play 2 or 3 until you get it to pay out on one.
Since you have oiled your odds step up disc (top unit) as Jim suggested, now go back up and make sure the little fingers contacting the buttons on the disc all make good contact.  Lift them up gently and when you release them you should notice some pressure on them, and hear them snap on the board. You can do the same thing on the hopper with your spiral cam switches which contact the payboard.

And finally I presume you know how to set up pays?  After you pull the handle, reach back on the left side of the reel mech, and stop the fan from spinning.  this will give you time to set up a pay on centerline.  After pay is up, release the fan and your reels will index on the pay.  Just in case you didn't know....
If you set up a low pay, you can check your spiral cam pays (inboard wipers).  If you set up a jackpot or anything over 100 coins, you are checking your outboard wipers, or high pay wipers.  It's always good to check both kinds of pays before assuming all pays are bad.
That's it for me, g'nite....

[BR549 Auto Sales]

All of the wiper fingers on the reels and on the hopper are making good contact with good tension and are really clean, so I think they are ok. They could be out of alignment as you suggested though. So when you say set up a jackpot pay, what am I looking for on the wipers, the hopper wipers or the reels or both?

I set up the jackpot (777) and let go of the fan and the yellow light came on the top, so I guess that is a good sign, but the jackpot bell just above the pull handle on the inside is buzzing like the coil that makes it ring is locked and not allowing it to ring, but at the same time no action from the hopper as far as dropping coins or motor turning, etc.

Thanks again

[OldReno]

It sounds like the machine sees the jackpot, so that suggests the reels are ok, so it sounds like a hopper problem.  (generally the highest pay is the deepest cut on the reels that is wired)
That spark the guy saw may have been your payout relay coil going out. (pic 3976, the green coil).  Give that coil a good inspection, and look especially at the two little tiny wires coming from the coil windings.  If it shorted out, you'll probably notice one of them has a break, and is not making it all the way to the solder connections.  You could probably test it with a pair of jumper wires and alligator clips. Clip one lead to the solid orange wire on your transformer and the other side of it to the orange on the coil.  Clip your other jumper onto the yellow wire on the transformer, and the touch it lightly to the other side of your coil.  If it fires, your coil is good.  Actually you can find the solid orange and solid yellow wires on your door if that's easier.
If you have a bad coil, Jim probably has one for you I would suspect, or certainly he can recommend a source....
As far as your jackpot bell, someone probably bent the clapper back behind the round bell part.  Reach in and pull the clapper back out, and your bell should start ringing.  You can silence it by putting a folded piece of paper between them, which works much better.
Well, you're making progress.  That's good.

[BR549 Auto Sales]

I put 2 jumper wires on the transformer and back to the payout relay coil and it energized when I touched the jumper wires to it so looks like that coil is good. I can get the machine to manually land on 777 and bar,bar,bar and the yellow light comes on on the candle and the jackpot bell now rings as it should (the clapper was bent just like you said) but it still will not payout as far as dropping coins, hopper motor is not running and the winner paid lamp is not coming on on the front glass. I am including 2 pics of the payout relay coil because I want to verify that I have the leaf gaps properly adjusted. Also 2 pics of the round wiper mech on the hopper (the wiper blades are towards the bottom), is that where they are supposed to be? Also some pics one other switch on the hopper and two other coils on the hopper to also verify if the leaf switches are gapped properly.

Thanks again for the help, definitely getting closer to working 100%

[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[BR549 Auto Sales]

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[BR549 Auto Sales]

last one,  from the bottom of the hopper

[BR549 Auto Sales]

More info, the  payout relay coil is pulling in when ever ther is a winning combination on the reels, but the hopper is not turning or dropping coins, so it seems as if that coil is doing what it is supposed to do.