Regulatory Issues

[DealingwithNIGC542]

I am flat amazed by the sheer volume of technical information available here and at the archived site; I'm passing the link along to our Director of Slots as a reference source. Here's my suggestion/issue/question:

I work on the regulatory side and I have been looking sites to gain input on some of the whacked regulatory issues confronting the industry, both current and those coming in the future. Obviously, there are some wicked smart people posting to this site, but I find very little conversation in regards to regulation(s).  That said,

How about a forum devoted to regulatory issues, encompassing local, state and Federal reg? The casino I work for is regulated under 25 CFR 542 (the National Indian Gaming Commission Minimum Internal Control Standards) - some of the "hoops" we have to jump through makes a Barnum and Bailey wild animal act look like a petting zoo. I think there might be quite a bit of interest in the subject in general as the technical side of the equation and the regulatory side are woven together pretty tightly.

OR

If you-all want to maintain the "technical sanctity" of your site, are you aware of any sites that are geared to the regulatory side of the industry? I've been working on this for awhile and there just isn't a whole lot out there.

I appreciate any and all opinions/suggestions/recommendations, folks. Thanks for the help...

[knagl]

Welcome to the site -- we're glad to have you here, and your unique view of the industry is great.

I like the idea.  The "Gaming Industry News" forum has traditionally had some conversation relating to what you're talking about.  Due to a recent server change, there's actually nothing in that forum, but if you look at the archive of it you may find some posts of interest.

I don't see why another forum couldn't be added, though -- it's of course up to the site moderators to make that decision and make it happen, but posting here was the right first step in making it happen. 

Again, welcome.

[DealingwithNIGC542]

Knagl - Thank you for the welcome, much appreciated. While I have looked through the archives my thinking was that, as this site is starting "anew", there might be an opportunity to get some fresh dialogue started. As an example, I have been corresponding with Randy Fromm (and several others) about recent advances in game design and I have been unable to form a clear "opinion" about the direction game design is taking because of the complexity of the issue. Currently, I am trying to tweak our internal compliance efforts to address problems with NIGC regs and some of the newer games available on the market. In attempting to develop the mechanism to address current problems, I can see even more problems coming to the fore with the expansion of server-based gaming and the direction IT is taking. One of the key components (in my eyes) to "getting in front of this" will involve soliciting opinions from the "technical sector" of the industry; finding people with the expertise to clear up some of the fog. And, obviously, folks in the technical sector could gain from the dialogue; I'm looking forward to being part of that, whether here or someplace else.

Anyway, thanks again, Knagl. 

 

 

[jay]

G2E - The gambling convetion held annually in LasVegas in November has a lot of sessions on reglatory issues. I would highly recommend you attend this. It is well attended both by manufacturers, regulators (both Tribal and non Tribal) as well as international attendees.

From a gamblers perspective I would like to see the Payback Percentage posted on every machine.

With most of the progressives I am familar with - these are not integrated into the slot. Meaning that they do not impact the hold percentages on a per platform basis.
I have recently heard that some of the new WAP games have intermixed the progressives with the paybacks and they are now community based hold. I am not sure how the accounting works on this, in other words if you had 2 different properties owned by different companies how do they manage the per property hold or if the manufacturer now takes a cut of the hold in turn for underwriting the progressive etc. This latter notion scares me as it now means that the manufacturer have a vested stake in me not winning (not that I really expect too).
Once again what I have "heard" may not be true, but any insight into this would be interesting.

[knagl]

Jay-

Isn't that how most WAP's work now?  Take Megabucks, for example.  As far as I knew, IGT gets a cut of each wager to add to the jackpot, and they pay out the jackpot when it gets hit.  I'm under the impression that the linked Wheel of Fortune progressives are the same deal.  In fact, I believe that's why Harrah's decided to remove Wheel of Fortune, as they weren't making as much profit on those machines as they were non-WAP games that didn't have a chunk of the money going to IGT.

That said, I don't know if IGT is profiting off the money contributed to the progressives or just acting as the banker until someone wins the jackpot.

[CaptainHappy]

Jay-

Isn't that how most WAP's work now?  Take Megabucks, for example.  As far as I knew, IGT gets a cut of each wager to add to the jackpot, and they pay out the jackpot when it gets hit.  I'm under the impression that the linked Wheel of Fortune progressives are the same deal.  In fact, I believe that's why Harrah's decided to remove Wheel of Fortune, as they weren't making as much profit on those machines as they were non-WAP games that didn't have a chunk of the money going to IGT.

That said, I don't know if IGT is profiting off the money contributed to the progressives or just acting as the banker until someone wins the jackpot.

From what I understand on Larger WAP titles... Machines are actually IGT lease machines, not casino owned. IGT "USED TO" maintain them. (See article on main page as IGT is slacking on machine maintenance now!!!) IGT get a %age of the machines take plus whatever fee if there is one. Casino pays all jackpots with the exception of the Biggie which IGT pays. These machines are in constant contact with IGT so they know if the door opens, etc. so no cheating them! This also explains why these titles rarely if ever make it out to our world!

CaptainHappy
 

[Op-Bell]

Unless things have changed recently, WAP games like Wheel of Fortune and Megabucks are 85% games. IGT owns and maintains them. 7.5% goes to IGT and 7.5% to the hosting property, plus another 5% off the top goes to IGT to be put in a special fund for the jackpot, which is paid by IGT, not the property. Note that they never actually part with that 5% money, just let the winner have the interest on it for 20 years. If you look at IGT's annual report (the last one I looked at was a couple of years ago) you'll see that the profit they made on this scam participation games was about equal to their profit from making machines, about $67 million that year. Participation games have always been unpopular with the casinos for some reason, though I can't imagine why, as they make more than average money off them - probably it's an emotional thing related to IGT's profits. For whatever reason, they've been throwing them out and the numbers have been steadily shrinking.

[OhioGaming]

Since there was some Megabucks info being posted ... here is my addition

Wild Star RWB Megabucks SS4702 = 87.99%
Five Times Pay Megabucks SS8435 = 86.08%

[PinballWiz]

Unless things have changed recently, WAP games like Wheel of Fortune and Megabucks are 85% games. IGT owns and maintains them. 7.5% goes to IGT and 7.5% to the hosting property, plus another 5% off the top goes to IGT to be put in a special fund for the jackpot, which is paid by IGT, not the property. Note that they never actually part with that 5% money, just let the winner have the interest on it for 20 years. If you look at IGT's annual report (the last one I looked at was a couple of years ago) you'll see that the profit they made on this scam participation games was about equal to their profit from making machines, about $67 million that year. Participation games have always been unpopular with the casinos for some reason, though I can't imagine why, as they make more than average money off them - probably it's an emotional thing related to IGT's profits. For whatever reason, they've been throwing them out and the numbers have been steadily shrinking.

That is actually a question I have had for a long time as a player...

Does it matter where I play, say, classic red-white & blue based WOF?  Since these machines are leased, are the payoff percentages the same where ever I play?  Does this hold true for both the base game, and the progressive payoff?

Rob

[Op-Bell]

Does it matter where I play, say, classic red-white & blue based WOF?  Since these machines are leased, are the payoff percentages the same where ever I play?  Does this hold true for both the base game, and the progressive payoff?

Well, other people have raised that question. It has been noticed that a well known wide area jackpot has famously hit on the opening night at certain new casinos with the same ownership. This has happened on more than one opening night. Once might be chance, but the odds against it happening twice would seem to be staggeringly large, and there aren't enough digits in my computer to calculate the odds against it happening 3 times on 3 successive openings. It's easy to see how the resulting publicity would be helpful both to the property and to the machines' operators, at no cost to either, since the jackpot must hit and be paid eventually. It has been suggested that maybe special game chips were put in the machines for those occasions, making the jackpot more likely. That would seem to fall under the definition of a "gaff", which would be illegal, so I'm sure there is absolutely no truth in these scurrilous rumors and I only mention them here so we can all laugh at such a ridiculous conspiracy theory. 

I don't see what would prevent a site from negotiating their own rate. If they wanted to offer a higher percentage it would come out of the casino's cut, so I think that's improbable, but there may be places with lower percentages, if any jurisdictions allow less than 85% - you can't go lower in Nevada. I would imagine the jackpot long odds don't change, otherwise the regulators would object. Only the interested parties would know the truth, and obviously they're not going to say; and since the games are never sold, it's not like you can look up in a catalog to see if there are different percentage chips available.

[uniman]

Does it matter where I play, say, classic red-white & blue based WOF?  Since these machines are leased, are the payoff percentages the same where ever I play?  Does this hold true for both the base game, and the progressive payoff?

Well, other people have raised that question. It has been noticed that a well known wide area jackpot has famously hit on the opening night at certain new casinos with the same ownership. This has happened on more than one opening night. Once might be chance, but the odds against it happening twice would seem to be staggeringly large, and there aren't enough digits in my computer to calculate the odds against it happening 3 times on 3 successive openings. It's easy to see how the resulting publicity would be helpful both to the property and to the machines' operators, at no cost to either, since the jackpot must hit and be paid eventually. It has been suggested that maybe special game chips were put in the machines for those occasions, making the jackpot more likely. That would seem to fall under the definition of a "gaff", which would be illegal, so I'm sure there is absolutely no truth in these scurrilous rumors and I only mention them here so we can all laugh at such a ridiculous conspiracy theory. 

I don't see what would prevent a site from negotiating their own rate. If they wanted to offer a higher percentage it would come out of the casino's cut, so I think that's improbable, but there may be places with lower percentages, if any jurisdictions allow less than 85% - you can't go lower in Nevada. I would imagine the jackpot long odds don't change, otherwise the regulators would object. Only the interested parties would know the truth, and obviously they're not going to say; and since the games are never sold, it's not like you can look up in a catalog to see if there are different percentage chips available.

I thought Nevada slot minimum payback was 75% and New Jersey 83%???

[Op-Bell]

I thought Nevada slot minimum payback was 75% and New Jersey 83%???

You're right about Nevada, I just looked it up in Reg 14. It's 75%. My mistake.

[jay]

The observation by some of us, with certain games is that our IGT platforms tend to hit the big one right after a game change and possible clear.

The observation of these "new" machines to the WAP network would be consistent with this theory.

This has just been an observation and I have no statistics to back this up.

[rickhunter]

this particular phenomenon has not applied to my game changes. 

[LittlePaws]

Okay so I guess this is as close as I can come to finding an answer. I have looked through the NIGC MICS and I can't find what I'm looking for. Perhaps someone here can help me? I am wondering if a machine tech has to be present for drop. Is it necessary for them to follow the drop team? Or can they drop the machines independent of the presence of a member of the gaming machine department?

[stayouttadabunker]

If you're working in a live casino, your boss should know this.
If not, then it's up to your boss to find out...not you.
If YOU'RE the boss, then give the gaming commission in your area, a telephone call?
The Commission in your area should know what needs to be done and
supply you with an outline of what procedure to follow.
If you don't work in a casino, why care?

[brichter]

Okay so I guess this is as close as I can come to finding an answer. I have looked through the NIGC MICS and I can't find what I'm looking for. Perhaps someone here can help me? I am wondering if a machine tech has to be present for drop. Is it necessary for them to follow the drop team? Or can they drop the machines independent of the presence of a member of the gaming machine department?

I don't work in a casino, but have seen a couple of drop collections and not seen a tech present (in Nevada). They don't open the main door, just the belly.

[TZtech]

Regs over here are different but i would not imagine that a tech needs to be present - Problem is you have to follow them around and fix everything they break - Been there done that 

[jay]

That question is probably more appropriate at one of these sites...
http://gamingfloor.biz/forum/index.php?
This is known as the Casino Operations Forum. Its based out of the UK

http://www.dicedealer.com/index2.html
Dice Dealers is a Casino Workers forum based in the US.

Not being a casino worker either, but owning several slots... it would appear that there are about 4 - 5 locks on each machine.
MPU Board, Door, Belly door, Cash can door, Cash Can

My observations is that the box changers work in teams of two or three. One guy opens the belly door, the other the cash can door and then the cash can (un opened) is placed in the cart and a empty is put in its place all the while the third guy watches cart. They go from machine to machine and then directly off the casino floor. I would suspect that they could have up to 100K in the 20 or so boxes that they have. They also put their card into the player tracking system which probably stops the cash management system from screaming.

[DealingwithNIGC542]

A quick note - Standards governing drop vary widely by jurisdiction; most casinos will have a "System of Internal Controls (SIC) that will usually explain in detail what the procedure is. The SIC is usually an internal casino document, maintained by the casino with Gaming Commission oversight. Under NIGC minimum internal controls, there is no requirement for a slot tech to accompany the drop team; if you see a tech in the area of the drop team, it's (usually) because management wants to be sure the bill validators "cycle" properly - once the cans has been switched out, the tech is "around" to make sure the validator comes back into service. In our casino, it is the drop team's responsibility to be sure the validator does "cycle" properly. If the validator doesn't come back up, the drop team calls for tech assistance (and to fix stuff the drop team breaks).

The thing with the drop team inserting a card into the machine - the progamming on that card takes a "snapshot" of the lifetime-to-date meters for each currency denomination; that snapshot is used to calculate an "electronic bill drop" value for each machine. Then the count team manual currency count is compared to the electronic value to check for variances. Under NIGC minimums (for example), if the variance is $25.00US or more AND 3% of the electronic value or more, the cause for the variance must be investigated and the results documented.

Hope that helps....

[doublediamonddlx]

I came across a Cash Can right after they had done the change outs in the AM.  I was only about 25 at the time, I kinda knew how much could have been in there but, being the honest guy I was took the can up to the cage.  You should have seen the eyeballs pop out of everyone!  They asked where I got it from, again not really knowing what I "could" have set up before me...and not wanting to be "detained" in the back room, gave them the information of the machine.  All I got in return was a "Thank You!"  What a rip.  (This was a casino in Mesquite, NV).

[Railroad94]

No cash can but it was in the early mourning. TITO was not a factor yet so every machine had the hopper full of tokens and came across an unlocked machine,always figured there tracking would notify them and they would be johnny on the spot to investigate    but guess not  . I swung the door open took a good look around,  smiled for the camera and not wanting to see someone get fired so I found a slot attendant and told them thinking they where just going to see the last name in the book, lock it up and get lots of free lunches from that person. The radio calls started,  management was there  , after another 3 minutes of my time with questions I could leave and not a thank you. So if you find a machine open  ,RUN LIKE HELL and let the next poor sap turn it in.

[tacman]

Did they ask to see your keyring with the jackpot reset and access keys?? 

 Dan (tacman)

[Railroad94]

   Told them look all I have is a 2341 key and not the door key  DUH!!!!!!   can I go now

[DealingwithNIGC542]

Hey, doublediamonddlx - you did the smart thing. You probably could have gotten the can out of the casino BUT, if there WAS currency in it (50/50 chance of that) and the drop variance was sufficient to warrent investigation, the casino could have eventually worked it "backwards" to the point where they could have had your face on tape; they'd have been looking for you. If you had used a player card on their floor during that day, they probably would have identified you. If you hadn't done what you did, you could have faced (depending on the jurisdiction and the value of the currency) a high misdemeanor or a low felony for outright theft or "theft by omission of action".

The "thank you" blowoff doesn't surprise me - the LAST thing a casino wants to convey is the appearance of ineptitude; they find out what happened (as best they can) and politely send you on your way. THEN they go on the "dog hunt"; somebody caught flak for that mistake. (I remember reading some case history last year - a casino [Indiana?] was fined $30,000.00 for mishandling a situation just like you describe).

The thing with the slot doors - too funny - I remember some of the "coin-op" slots we ran on our floor; Aristocrat MkIV's and some IGT PE+ - some of those cabinets were so "well used" that, if you knew where to find them, you could pop the doors with a solid smack of your hand. Used to drive techs crazy because they were constantly fiddling with them. We still have some coin slots on our floor, but the cabinets and locks have been WAY beefed up. Still doesn't stop floor personnel from leaving them unlocked (or not properly latched), but what can you do?? It's going to happen... By the way - what's a 2341 key?

To LittlePaws - Remember that NIGC MICS drop and count standards change from tier to tier; drop and count standards for Tier A casinos is 25 CFR 542.21; Tier B is 25 CFR 542.31; Tier C is 25 CFR 542.41. This still isn't really going to help you; you need to locate your Minimum Internal Control Regulations (MICR) and/or your casino System of Internal Controls (SIC). The NIGC standards are the MINIMUMS for compliance - each "step" (from MICS to MICR to SIC) should get progressively MORE STRINGENT. Your local tribal regulatory authority (Gaming Commission) should have the MICR - casino management should have the SIC. GOOD LUCK!!