Bally 809 X5 Multiplier Problem

[rdaniel]

Greetings All. I have a Bally 809 ZH which is a 5 coin T Bar fruit machine. The problem I am having is with the X5 multiplier. When I hit a win on 5 coins deposited, the machine substantially overpays, like 10-30 coins. This occurs on all symbols, fruit and bars.

I removed the front panel to the feature unit to watch the operation of the X5 wheel during a win. It seems that the wheel moves very slowly, in comparison to the X2-X4 units, allowing for a greater payout than normal.

So I removed the feature unit and unscrewed the X5 unit for a better look. There are two springs in the unit. I thought that perhaps the larger of the two, which controls the return speed of the wheel needed more tension. I tried that by adding an additional loop of spring on the hook. That worked somewhat.

Now, when I manually operate the unit, the wheel moves faster for about 5 pulses then slows down.

I thought about taking the wheel off and lubricating the internal parts. However, there are three screws and a cotter pin holding the wheel in place. I am concerned that removing these will damage the unit.   

What can I do to get the X5 wheel to move at the correct speed?

Thanks

RDaniel

[Karliesdad88]

I am having a similar problem with my 847 continental. I am going to try and lubricate the wheel and spin it manually to work in the oil and maybe a little white lithium grease?

[OldReno]

As I recall, you just need to remove the cotter key, and then you'll be able to work the wheel away from the board. Be careful to clear the plunger and other stuff. Especially be careful of the 'Hold Pawl' part # 37 on P. 67 of the Manual.  I think you have to hold the plunger in to get the wheel to clear also. (I guess I'll have to go check).  You will find the whole wheel comes off, but don't force it and break anything.

Try manually stepping the X5 with a small pocket screwdriver, and feel for resistance.
Try it with your other X units and see if there is a difference.
You can clean the board, and also check to be certain that those two little wiper fingers that ride on the board make good contact.
If one of the board segments are dirty or not contacting, that will cause overpays.
Please note:
Whichever X unit is being used, it must step one step for every coin paid out of the hopper.
For ever 5 steps of the X5, it must step the hopper payboard ONE step.
For every 4 steps of the X4, it must step the hopper payboard ONE step.
For every 3 steps of the X3....blah blah.

Sadly, I do not have a machine with an Xunit on it, and have forgotten how to disassemble them.  One other way is to remove the post that the cotter key fits on (hold the nut in back, and use plain end screwdriver to unscrew the shaft), and then the thing will disassemble also.
Anyway, once you figure it out it is quite easy.
PLEASE take some pics....

Oh, and finally, makes sure your odds disc wiper fingers are firmly contacting the odds disc and are lubed with light oil.  The odds disc selects which Xunit to use if I am not mistaken.

[rdaniel]

Thank you Old Reno. I will work on the X5 and see what happens.  Cannot post pictures at this time since the machine is in Las Vegas and I am temporarily in California with the feature unit. Took it with me to work on it in my spare time since it is easy to transport.

Rdaniel

[Op-Bell]

It's a standard pinball score unit - at least, x2 and x5 are - the x3 and x4 (and x6 if present) are modified pinball score units with 12 positions instead of 10. The wheel doesn't come away from the board willingly. The three screws just remove the white plastic drum, this gives you access to the ratchet and pawl behind it that are holding the rotating part back and stopping you removing it. If you then decide to slip off the E-ring and strip it further, you can see what you're doing. It's probably got sticky old oil on the shaft that needs cleaning off. While you have it apart you may get the impression that it will work without the white wheel in place, but it won't, at least not reliably.

If you did break it, pinball score units with 10 positions are pretty easy to come by. Be careful with the 12 position ones though.

[rdaniel]

Thank you all for the guidance. I removed the "hair pin" and the three screws holding the wheel in place. Removed the ratchet and  cleaned the metal tracks which were dirty. I then lubed the shaft on which the ratchet turns. Put it all back together and low and behold the wheel moves freely and smoothly when I push in on the plunger.
 
I then checked for continuity with my ohm meter to make sure that the two contacts where in fact making contact with the metal tracks.They were. Also checked the other three wheels, all making good  contact.
 
Working on Bally EM's is actually fun and enjoyable. Almost as  much fun as playing them.
 

[David B Fowler]

Sure are ... until you buy a broken Continental.
 

[rdaniel]

I heard about Continentals from others on this forum. They are allegedly nightmares to repair, lots of wires and very complex.  I wish you lots of luck and most of all patience.One thing for sure, you will learn a lot about the slot when you begin working on it.

[David B Fowler]

809's and 831's are the best to get your feet wet. 809 is the earlier one with a 5 coin multiplier single line pay, and the 831 has the 3 coin feature with 3 pay lines. Everything after those are more complex and the experience from the older ones will carry over. OldReno is a great contact on any of these EM machines.

The Fatman

[Op-Bell]

I heard about Continentals from others on this forum. They are allegedly nightmares to repair, lots of wires and very complex.

Complicated yes, but they don't even come close to the complexity of a Bally Bingo pinball. Those were the ultimate electromechanical nightmare.

I've never seen a Continental with a credit counter in the flesh, and I've always wondered - where is the "play credit" button? I don't see it on the front panel in any photographs.

[David B Fowler]

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2891.0;attach=8684;image

This will take you to a pic from a member here. I believe the collect button will play credits but its been quite a long time for me. But this is a machine with the credits.
Dave

[Op-Bell]

Thanks for the link to the picture. Hmm. The right hand panel on the front glass seems to indicate the play credit button is on the right side, near the handle.

[David B Fowler]

Thats what I am thinking ... 

[OldReno]

Op Bell, damn, dude, you still with us. 
Kudos and greetings!
My worst was a bally money-pin, selectable screens depending on coin in, with a hopper.  And OOOOLD hard to read wiring.
Great pix of the X unit.  Now I remember, you pull in the plunger to the solenoid, and then with a small flat blade pocket screwdriver hold back the lever at left which holds the other spring, then you can easily pull out the X wheel. And same for reverse.
I must agree with you, now, that removing the wheel first, gives a far greater understanding of the principles of operation. 
Once you do a few of them, you forget you had to learn that, and my mentors made me learn that myself.
If you know how to do it, it is very silly to take out those 3 screws. We tried to overhaul a machine a day and did not have time to dally.  Ha!
That was a PERFECT picture of what is happening, and could only be surpassed by a photo of the inner tabs with the 2 U-bridged control contacts.(manual not handy).  Damn that was a sexy picture in fact....? 
Note the lobe at 1:00 and its interaction with the switch stack.
I thought the X-units system was an excellent and diabolical way to make pays.
About the same as the continental reset-once-per extra coin in sequencing of pays.
Nice to read you again.
The intricacies of the 10 step and 12 step boards is something that might be worthwhile to post here for posterity also.
A true digital counter, is what these things were.  Before binary and perhaps after...?
Do you remember a manual step/electric coil-hold times 2 pay machine?  I'd love to see the physics of that again.
Cool to have you here.

[Op-Bell]

Hey Reno, I'm still around, even tho I don't post much. I've had other duties this past couple of years that soaked up the free time I used to spend messing with slots and hanging out on the forum. The reason I logged in recently is I've been helping with the sale of Mickey Wichinsky's warehouse full of old machines and been answering questions like this all day for a week. It put me in the mood.

[Thompy]

Here is a pic of a Bally Bingo Slot with the credit button on the side, hope to get to work on this one soon,

[OldReno]

Thompy that is gorgeous.

[philslot]

it may not be really obvious from the picture, but the handle knob is close enough to the white credit button so you can push/hold in the button without taking your hand off the knob.

one of the key switches on the same side flips the game between credits and coin payout mode, so the game can be operated either way.

I have the paperwork for the 929-1 if someone needs it.  Attached is an explanation of the diodes in the reel wiper circuits.

[Thompy]

 Hi philslot,

Thank you for posting this! , would love a copy of the paperwork for the Bingo.....great job!

[philslot]

take a look in bingo.cdyn.com/s929/

some of the scans are very big for what they are due to background noise.  A couple of them you may never have seen before - they are bally engineering documents that weren't part of the normal paperwork packets that shipped with the machines.  They are more curiosities than useful if you have an intact machine.

the ones you primarily care about are the contact plate wiring diagrams listed in the units.pdf file and the schematics (w-1046-1173a and w-1046-1173b scans).

sorry for the thread hijack.

[Thompy]

Nice, thanks again.